Supersonic AShM vs Subsonic AShm

kams

New Member
Lot figures are being thrown around for detection range of anti-missile defence of the ship. The assumption that subsonic sea skimming missile can be detected only at 15-20 km range is not entirely right. Most of the modern navies have some kind of Air borne early warning capability (fixed wing or Helicopter based such as KA-31) which can detect these missiles much earlier.

Supersonic missiles also have a lo flight path at the terminal phase. In case of Brahmos, the range is 290 km for a HI-Lo flight and around 120-150 km for LO- HI-Lo flight path. In Hi-Lo trajectory it descends to 10 m height around 40 km from the target. Its seeker does a single short pulse scan at this range to confirm the target and then switches on at 10 km range.

As Doc said when Brahmos is fired as salvo, the CIWS will have hard time intercepting the missile. Even if they manage to hit the missile at around 2-3 km range, the debry travelling at 1000 m/sec can do substantial damage to the ship.

Here is a link to Brahmos video. Concentrate on Dr.Pillai's comments.

Brahmos video download
 
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contedicavour

New Member
DoC_FouALieR said:
By the way, I use to play a real time naval wargame, and when commanding an FFG-7, my last nightmare is to see some kind of missile patrol vessel like Osa or Molniya-M armed with supersonic missiles like Sunburn! Why?

-First of all, this kind of patrol vessel is too small and hardly appear on the radar (using the AN/SPS 55) at horizon's range.
-Second they use to collect data from others sources than their own radar (friendly ship, someone else in the area, etc etc) so when they illuminate my ship it is usually to launch a salvo of vampirs with no previous warn. So at this point of the simulation, the only thing I know is a radar emission toward my ship.
-When they launch their missiles (distances differ from one engagment to another, the worse being an over the horizon launch, with no radar emission at all), given that the refresh rate of the AN/SPS 55 or the AN/SPS 49 is pretty long (being mechanically steered antennas), I am usually able to detect and classify the echos as supersonic vampirs in range of my SM-1 missile!
Indeed if one thing has been forgotten in this thread, it is the time of radar scanning, since between two turns of the radar antenna, a supersonic missile travels a lot of distance undetected!
-Since I can only launch and guide one missile at a time, because their is only an Mk-13 multipurpose launcher on the ship and one guiding antenna for the Standard missile, supersonics missiles quickly overcome my defence.
Worse of all, I cannot launch Harpoon missiles to retaliate while being under attack because Harpoons are launched by the Mk-13!
-It remains only ECMs and the CIWS (Phalanx), but with not enough time to deploy off-board chaffs, ECM are quite uneffective, and against the terminal manoeuvre of a supersonic missile, the phalanx has still a lot of hardwork...

In the simulation, two to three supersonic missiles like the Sunburn use to hit me, on the contrary I am able to manage a salvo of four exocet, since I can easily destroy two to three missile with my SM-1s and the CIWS works good against them...
What is sure is that the OHP FFG-7 are very poorly armed against SSM threats. The Mk13 launcher is obsolete (shame you still have it on the Cassard and we on the De la Penne...) and the Phalanx is suitable only against very close targets, so as I described before, weak against supersonic large-warhead missiles.
Add in a decent AAW FFG/DDG with decent-range VLS missiles, ideally classed as anti-missile missiles, and the whole scenario changes completely.

One other thing : most Osa, Nanuchka or Tarantuls are operated by navies who don't have a clue of how to run over-the-horizon operations. By the same rules of the game, you can get a helo up and guide your own SSMs straight into them before they even realize you are there. That's standard practice for Teseo Mk2 with OHT by the AB212/NH90/EH101.

To summarize, supersonic missiles have an advantage against weaker AAW ships, but nothing significant against modern well defended AAW FFG/DDG.

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
kams said:
Lot figures are being thrown around for detection range of anti-missile defence of the ship. The assumption that subsonic sea skimming missile can be detected only at 15-20 km range is not entirely right. Most of the modern navies have some kind of Air borne early warning capability (fixed wing or Helicopter based such as KA-31) which can detect these missiles much earlier.

Supersonic missiles also have a lo flight path at the terminal phase. In case of Brahmos, the range is 290 km for a HI-Lo flight and around 120-150 km for LO- HI-Lo flight path. In Hi-Lo trajectory it descends to 10 m height around 40 km from the target. Its seeker does a single short pulse scan at this range to confirm the target and then switches on at 10 km range.

As Doc said when Brahmos is fired as salvo, the CIWS will have hard time intercepting the missile. Even if they manage to hit the missile at around 2-3 km range, the debry travelling at 1000 m/sec can do substantial damage to the ship.

Here is a link to Brahmos video. Concentrate on Dr.Pillai's comments.

Brahmos video download
Impressive bird that Brahmos ;)
Regarding presence of airborne AEW assets, actually very few navies have them : obviously US, Russia, UK, France, then Italy, Spain, India... that's it. Then of course land-based assets can help other navies such as Australia or Singapore, but not if you are on the other side of the planet on an overseas mission. So overall 7 navies only. Besides, only the US, Russia, and UK have enough assets for several simultaneous missions.
Regarding CIWS, I agree that in order to eliminate debris as far away as possible from your ship, you need higher calibre guns to kill targets farther away. Or longer range anti-missile missiles. But haven't I already said that once or twice in this thread :D ;)

cheers
 

kams

New Member
Impressive bird that Brahmos
Regarding presence of airborne AEW assets, actually very few navies have them : obviously US, Russia, UK, France, then Italy, Spain, India... that's it. Then of course land-based assets can help other navies such as Australia or Singapore, but not if you are on the other side of the planet on an overseas mission. So overall 7 navies only. Besides, only the US, Russia, and UK have enough assets for several simultaneous missions.
Regarding CIWS, I agree that in order to eliminate debris as far away as possible from your ship, you need higher calibre guns to kill targets farther away. Or longer range anti-missile missiles. But haven't I already said that once or twice in this thread
Brahmos/Yahkont also have the capability to act as wolf-pack, with one missile designating for others. Their seeker is supposed to have active as well as passive modes for homing. In passive mode they home on the jamming signal of the ship. They also have data link capability where they can use the feed from AEW/ UAV. In LACM mode they can switch their flight path 7 times. These are one hell of a missile systems and their flight paths can be programmed to attack a high value target simultaneously from different directions, all the while keeping their radar seeker silent.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
kams said:
Lot figures are being thrown around for detection range of anti-missile defence of the ship. The assumption that subsonic sea skimming missile can be detected only at 15-20 km range is not entirely right. Most of the modern navies have some kind of Air borne early warning capability (fixed wing or Helicopter based such as KA-31) which can detect these missiles much earlier.
that's what made Aegis and other air defense systems more potent now, but still when you go outside of Aegis and PAAMS, how many other navies have the capabilities to network all of their early detection assets?

And even in the case of Aegis/PAAMS, it's still a lot easier to detect something cruising in high altitude than something cruising at 30m above sea level (whether you are airborne or a ship). In a way, you can detect high flying missiles (note, several supersonic missiles like Club and Moskit fly at low altitude also) much further out than just with your own radar. The advantage you gain against sea-skimming missiles might not be as much.

Regarding presence of airborne AEW assets, actually very few navies have them : obviously US, Russia, UK, France, then Italy, Spain, India... that's it
I know China also has them. Maybe there are more.
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
shame you still have it on the Cassard and we on the De la Penne...)
Oupss, it is the Cassard and the Jean Bart.

most Osa, Nanuchka or Tarantuls are operated by navies who don't have a clue of how to run over-the-horizon operations. By the same rules of the game, you can get a helo up and guide your own SSMs straight into them before they even realize you are there.
The problem is that when you are operating in coastal waters, the ennemy can get your localisation easier than when operating in high seas, so sometimes they can launch over the horizon. And since an FFG is primarly an ASW ship, it often operates near the coast to hunt the SSK, and the Helo is sometimes too busy in its ASW task to do something else. Because detection by the helo's radar is one thing, but classification is another, it requires the helo to close to the detected ship to ensure that it is really an ennemy, not a civilian boat or something else..

However there is no problem when operating in a task force, since there is always an Aegis cruiser or destroyer to take out the incoming missiles several miles away and to retaliate right after their launch.
 

contedicavour

New Member
DoC_FouALieR said:
Oupss, it is the Cassard and the Jean Bart.


The problem is that when you are operating in coastal waters, the ennemy can get your localisation easier than when operating in high seas, so sometimes they can launch over the horizon. And since an FFG is primarly an ASW ship, it often operates near the coast to hunt the SSK, and the Helo is sometimes too busy in its ASW task to do something else. Because detection by the helo's radar is one thing, but classification is another, it requires the helo to close to the detected ship to ensure that it is really an ennemy, not a civilian boat or something else..

However there is no problem when operating in a task force, since there is always an Aegis cruiser or destroyer to take out the incoming missiles several miles away and to retaliate right after their launch.
I was referring to our 2 DDGs with SM-1 (though we also have Aspides and 76/62SR CIWS on them) : De la Penne and Mimbelli. Finished in 1993, just a few years after your Cassard and Jean Bart.

Regarding the coastal scenario when the ship is running ASW tasks and risks being attacked by Tarantul-type light corvettes with SS-N-22 or Uran... well, then I suggest using 2 helos, one for ASW and one for guidance of SSMs OTH. Current Maestrale and Leygues have 2 helos each, and FREMM as well.
With current satellite coverage you don't need to send your helo close to the potential enemy to identify it... so you can just take it out with an over the horizon shot before it realizes you're there. Then you can concentrate on the SSKs (suggestion to win the naval warfare simulation ;) )

cheers
 

kilo

New Member
contedicavour said:
Regarding the coastal scenario when the ship is running ASW tasks and risks being attacked by Tarantul-type light corvettes with SS-N-22 or Uran... well, then I suggest using 2 helos, one for ASW and one for guidance of SSMs OTH. Current Maestrale and Leygues have 2 helos each, and FREMM as well. With current satellite coverage you don't need to send your helo close to the potential enemy to identify it... so you can just take it out with an over the horizon shot before it realizes you're there. Then you can concentrate on the SSKs (suggestion to win the naval warfare simulation ;) )

cheers
but if you dont have satelite coverage and u do have to send in the helo it will have to have to stay on station to guide the SSMs. thiswill make it an easy target for MANPADSs to shoot down.
 

vivtho

New Member
ahussains said:
at current state of the art subsonic SSM is indeed more efficient than supersonic one.

1) supersonic SSMs have to fly a high trajectory to maintain long distance trip, coz at low altitude air is much more dense than at high altitude. supersonic SSM will run out its fuel very soon when flying low trajectory due to resistance from air.

any high altitude object is easy target for SAM. the higher you are means you are above the horizon to farer enemy, enemy could detect you earlier, and have more reactive time.

while subsonic SSM could have a whole trip low-altitude flying. without support from airborne sensors, you can't detect it untill the missile got close to a distance that 30~50km far from you. this is the average horizon view range for shipborne radars.
I would tend to agree on this point. However, I'd like to point out that you are assuming that the launch platform fires the missile from it's maximum range. If the target does not have AEW support then, the launcher can get to just over the horizon and then launch his missiles. Since the missile has a shorter distance to fly it would be able to afford the additional fuel penalty. In such a situation, a supersonic AShM would have the advantage of reduced response time on the part of the target. If the target does have an AEW capability, then it does not matter whether the AShM is supersonic or not, it would be detected well before it pops over the horizon.

ahussains said:
2) supersonic SSMs have more obvious IR signature and bigger RCS than subsonic SSMs', which means the latter one would have less chance to be detected.
No doubt that supersonic SSMs would have a bigger IR signature. This is not much of a disadvantage. Very few ships have an IR early warning system installed (the Canadian and Dutch navies are among the first to do so). And if you're referring to IR-guided missiles like the RAM or the Sea Chaparral, you need to keep one thing in mind... unlike (most) radar-guided missiles which 'lead' the target (i.e. they aim for a point slightly ahead of the target, so that they intercept it), IR-guided missiles 'chase' the target. By this I mean that they aim for the hottest part of the target and try to overtake and hit it. This is quite practicable in the case of a (comparatively) slow moving aircraft or cruise missile. But the faster the target, the more difficult it is for the missile to intercept it. If you look at the kill envelope for any IR missile, you will see that it is most effective when fired from behind or to the sides of the target, and not from the front as in the case of a ship defending itself.

ahussains said:
3) supersonic SSMs can't fly as low as subsonic SSMs even in terminal phase. supersonic SSMs' high speed causes stochastic high pressure from air. trajectory shiver would happen, plus the high speed, supersonic SSM is very easy to crush with water if it flys as low as a subsonic SSM.

normally a supersonic SSM flys 30m high in terminal phase and only reduce to 5m in the last 1km of the trip. while a subsonic SSM flys 3~5m high in terminal phase. this also mean the latter one would have less chance to be detectd and shot down. this also mean the latter one would have less chance to be detectd and shot down.
I have not seen anything to substantiate this claim of a high-terminal altitude. Do you have any sources for this?

ahussains said:
4) supersonic SSM's seeker has to stand a more atrocious working environment than subsonic SSM's seeker does. thus even if their seekers have the same size apertures, the latter one's would have more chance to lock on target.(actually in most cases supersonic SSM's seeker has smaller aperture coz it has to save space to carry much more fuel)
Yes the aerodynamic forces on a supersonic missile are much greater than those on a missile flying slower. Radio waves are not affected by the physical environment, so given identical radars, speed will not make any difference to the performance of the radar. However, it is true that when a body flies extremely fast, the heated air (plasma actually) causes radio interference. Thankfully, hypersonic missiles are years away, so we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

As for supersonics having a small radar 'aperture' (I'm assuming that you mean the size of the radar antenna), the diameter of the missile is determined by the missile's role and launch platform, not by it's speed. Just to give you some examples
Missile____________________Diameter
_________________________________
BrahMos___________________0.60 m
Tomahawk (TASM)__________0.52 m
Harpoon___________________0.34 m
C-802_____________________0.36 m
Moskit (SS-N-22)____________0.53 m
Exocet ____________________0.35 m
Penguin___________________ 0.28 m
Kh-35_____________________0.36 m
SS-N-25__________________ 0.42 m
SS-N-19__________________ 0.85 m

With the exception of the BrahMod, the SS-N-19 and the Moskit, all the missiles are subsonic.

ahussains said:
5) supersonic SSM's reflected radar waves have more obvious doppler frequency shift than subsonic's coz supersonic SSM has higher relative speed to enemy's radar. it means it's more easy to pick supersonic SSM's signals from background disturbed signals such as radar waves reflected by water.
You are correct on the point that ships (and aircraft) use the Doppler effect to filter out spurious signals like waves (and birds, and cars, speedboats etc). However, anything that moves faster than a preset limit (that limit is set depending on the local condition) is picked up as a possible target. To the radar, it makes no difference if the incoming contact is travelling at 850 km/h or 2000 km/h, both are potential threats and both would be displayed.
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
unlike (most) radar-guided missiles which 'lead' the target (i.e. they aim for a point slightly ahead of the target, so that they intercept it), IR-guided missiles 'chase' the target. By this I mean that they aim for the hottest part of the target and try to overtake and hit it. This is quite practicable in the case of a (comparatively) slow moving aircraft or cruise missile. But the faster the target, the more difficult it is for the missile to intercept it. If you look at the kill envelope for any IR missile, you will see that it is most effective when fired from behind or to the sides of the target, and not from the front as in the case of a ship defending itself.
I really doubt about that...
The fact that IR-guided missiles are most efficient for rear-aspect engagment concerns the seeker accuracy, not the missile trajectory toward the target.
Early heat seeking missile were only able to catch the target from behind, because in this case the missile actually "sees" the reactor's outakes, the hottest point of the target.
But modern IR missile are able to detect the radiation emitted by the target from all-aspect, that's why they can be fired in front of.
And for the trajectory of the missile itself, a lot of heat seeking follow a lead trajectory, because their seekers use Proportionnal Navigation, as a number of SARH and ARH missiles do.
Proportionnal Navigation consists to place the target in the seeker "view" so that it appears stationnary.
Make the experience by yourself, when you are closing an object that appears stationnary in your vision, you are on a interception course.
Anyone who have already viewed a sidewinder engagment will agree that the missile actually leads the target...
 

contedicavour

New Member
kilo said:
but if you dont have satelite coverage and u do have to send in the helo it will have to have to stay on station to guide the SSMs. thiswill make it an easy target for MANPADSs to shoot down.
A helo hovering for OTH guidance of SSMs doesn't need to be so close to the enemy ship to become such an easy target for manpads. If the helo remains 20-25km away it's enough. At lower ranges, the helo could just shoot its own ASMs against the ship, why bother guiding OTH SSMs ;)
Our MBDA Marte Mk2A has a range of 25km for example, and all our helos are equipped with it.

cheers
 

Mangusta CBT

New Member
contedicavour said:
on Jane's fighting ships 2006/07, on Panorama Difesa of June or July/August, and I had heard of it from people in MBDA.
The key question is if our Navy can afford it, since for the moment there's money only for Teseo Mk2A (modernization of 180-km range Teseo2).
Also, SCALP Naval could hinder Teseo Mk3 production, if our Navy bought the same system as the French Navy for its land-attack FREMMS.

cheers
Italian Navy have declared if its "general purpose" FREMM will have a long range cruise missile like Scalp Naval or Tomahawk ?
 

contedicavour

New Member
Mangusta CBT said:
Italian Navy have declared if its "general purpose" FREMM will have a long range cruise missile like Scalp Naval or Tomahawk ?
Not yet, and since the decision is unlikely to arrive soon, I doubt the first 2 FREMM (classe Rinascimento / 1st ship of class : Ammiraglio Bergamini) will have the Sylver A70 for SCALP Naval, though the ships will surely leave space aside for later installation.
A further complication is that the first 2 FREMM funded by Parliament are one General Purpose and one ASW/AAW. Only the 1st one is intended to operate SCALP Naval.
Anyway, we'll see. Riva Trigoso shipyard is getting ready, with first steel cut July 2007 but work on components already underway. Sea trials end 2010 and delivery in 2011.
If we come up short with money, then the Teseo Mk2A does have some limited land attack capability (limited to 180km with OTH targeting), and the Teseo Mk3 would do even better (though range max 300km).

ciao
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
contedicavour said:
Not yet, and since the decision is unlikely to arrive soon, I doubt the first 2 FREMM (classe Rinascimento / 1st ship of class : Ammiraglio Bergamini) will have the Sylver A70 for SCALP Naval, though the ships will surely leave space aside for later installation.
A further complication is that the first 2 FREMM funded by Parliament are one General Purpose and one ASW/AAW. Only the 1st one is intended to operate SCALP Naval.
Anyway, we'll see. Riva Trigoso shipyard is getting ready, with first steel cut July 2007 but work on components already underway. Sea trials end 2010 and delivery in 2011.
If we come up short with money, then the Teseo Mk2A does have some limited land attack capability (limited to 180km with OTH targeting), and the Teseo Mk3 would do even better (though range max 300km).

ciao
Seems the Italian Navy is well covered with this type of missiles... :)
 

Mangusta CBT

New Member
contedicavour said:
... Not yet, and since the decision is unlikely to arrive soon ...
As I supposed, i call FREMM general purpose "the ship with the hole" :D :D because navy does not know what put in the prow VLS :D
 

contedicavour

New Member
Mangusta CBT said:
As I supposed, i call FREMM general purpose "the ship with the hole" :D :D because navy does not know what put in the prow VLS :D
We've got a long tradition of "fitted for but not with" ships when you talk about cruise missiles. Remember the '50s Garibaldi with the Polaris missiles ? Even the '60s Doria and Duilio were supposed to have Polaris...

Anyway, the GP FREMMs have 32-cell VLS Aster-15 with capability to have Aster -30s, 127mm long range guided ammunition gun, 3x76/62 SR Vulcano/strales CIWS, 2 Nh-90 helos, Teseo Mk2A and soon Mk3, sonar & torpedoes, ... so bottomline not too naked these ships :D

Besides, a ship's life is looooong and having extra space for mid life updates is key.

cheers
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
One question, will the Italian Fremm's be fitted with the same ultra low frequency active/passive towed array (the SLASM sonar) that we in France, already use on the De Grasse and Tourville ASW DD and will be fitted in our Fremm's. ?
 

kams

New Member
Besides, a ship's life is looooong and having extra space for mid life updates is key.
Just now I was reading an article titled THE INDIAN NAVY-A PERSPECTIVE VISION UPTO 2020 by LtCdr JM Gosalves of Indian Navy. This is what he had to say about war ship building.

The philosophical approach to shipbuilding would have to change if the price ration of ship construction are to be taken care of. The hull accounts for about one third the cost of the ship, whilst weapons, sensors and navigational
aids account for another 42 percent or so, leaving machinery and auxiliaries the balance 25 percent. A ship would become current if the 42 percent were to be replaced every 10 to 15 years for a mid life update. To make this worthwhile the remaining 58 percent would have to be of quality to ensure the backup endurance.
That's what you summarized:)

Coming back to subsonic vs supersonic Ashm, could some one tell me whats the true range of Exocet and Harpoon(ship lanched and air launched) Ashm at sea level. The figures I got was 50 km and 90 -100 km respectively.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
kams said:
Just now I was reading an article titled THE INDIAN NAVY-A PERSPECTIVE VISION UPTO 2020 by LtCdr JM Gosalves of Indian Navy. This is what he had to say about war ship building.



That's what you summarized:)

Coming back to subsonic vs supersonic Ashm, could some one tell me whats the true range of Exocet and Harpoon(ship lanched and air launched) Ashm at sea level. The figures I got was 50 km and 90 -100 km respectively.
it depends on which version you are talking about. I read that the latest Exocet (Exocet MM 40 Block 3?) has a range of 180 km.
 
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