Should Germany become a military superpower again?

Should Germany become a military superpower again?

  • Yes it should.

    Votes: 66 49.6%
  • No it should not.

    Votes: 67 50.4%

  • Total voters
    133
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Tom Tom

New Member
Germany is a well respected country all over the world. it has great industrial and military capabilities. Germany has no need to become a super power. She has a military capable of challenging most other world militarys . she practically has a military worth a super power status. Germany is one of the few influential NATO countries which are not despised by Russia.
I agree that Germany is a well respected country, now. While I don't own any German product it is not because they were bad in WW2 it is just because the Chinese/ Japanese make it better.

If they want to make a contribution to the "western world's" need to for stability through military means then I welcome their involvement. I would rather them to help rather than lead due to their historical issues (kind of like the Japanese).

I'm sure both (erstwhile) pariah nations have learned from their faults and can play a positive role in world affairs.
 

Herodotus

New Member
Herodotus, thanks it's a good link. I like the fact that you've taken the discussion from a personal level, point of view, to a geo-political level while taking into account the general discourse on their participation in ISAF within German society.

BTW, do you have any links on 'informal alliances' or something of such similar nature? I mean where two or more countries are not officially tied via an alliance but act in concert in defence matters. I'll be interested to learn more. :)
Thanks OPSSG, I always like to keep the discussions as academic as possible. :) As far as links on alliances, informal or formal, I can recommend two books that address alliance formations: The origins of alliances - Google Books and Alliance politics - Google Books Both books are from the neo-realist perspective. I have some journal articles as well but I don't know if I can upload them since they came from paying sites, but I can try to dig up some more links if you want.
 

Verstandwaffe

New Member
@ Tom Tom; well I am utmost surprised with your affirmation, Do germans not make good things ? Is that what you meant ? I do not know what flea market or weird stores you visit, there are a lot of companies, german quality and design is highly prized. China builds and depends much on german engineering as well as the rest of the world, we may not see many consumer products but there are much more than what we know and also Germany's strenght lays in B2B.


Now, some news for you guys:

DAVOS: UPDATE: Germany Govt To Strengthen Military Industry - WSJ.com

DAVOS: UPDATE: Germany Govt To Strengthen Military Industry

By Roman Kessler
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
DAVOS, Switzerland (Dow Jones)--Germany's government launched an initiative to strengthen its military industry during the World Economic Forum this weekend in the latest sign that the country has become emboldened to fight for its international interests.

A group of top-executives from German blue-chips met with federal ministers, talking military business in Davos.

German defense minister Karl-Theodor Freiherr zu Guttenberg brought up the "necessary interplay of defense policy and Germany's economic interests," at a breakfast meeting with a group of top-managers from utilities, chemical groups and other companies, his spokesman said.

His colleague, Economics Minister Rainer Bruederle, lashed out on U.S. policy makers, criticizing that European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. NV (EAD.FR) is put at a disadvantage when competing with Boeing Co (BA), at a business night in the swanky Belvedere Hotel of Davos.

Angela Merkel's new center-right coalition, which came to power about 100 days ago, is consistently working on the profile of its foreign and defense policy, analysts said.

"Germany has come a long way since unification toward expeditionary activities including, but not only in, Afghanistan. Think of the Balkans," said Executive Director Jackson Janes of Washington-based think tank American Institute for Contemporary German Studies.

"But there remains a closed debate about it within certain circles, but not so much at the public level. I think the U.S. would like to see Germany step up its engagements, but also bring Europe along with it," he added.

In the coalition treaty, parties agreed at the end of October to strive for a permanent seat on the U.N.'s security council that Germany should share with its neighbors "to take over more responsibility."

But as the U.K. and France are unlikely to give up their veto rights, some say that this would mean establishing a German-dominated seat in which others like Spain, Italy and eastern Europeans would participate.

Economics Minister Rainer Bruderle said as part of a wider strategy to push the country's weapons industry, Germany can't afford to let the Airbus A400M project fail.

He said it was in Germany's strategic interest to support Airbus and its parent against the backdrop of what seemed to him like inappropriate U.S. support for Boeing.

"If you look to the U.S. and ... Northrop," Bruderle said, Germany's government had reason to protect Airbus, implying that he had been alarmed by U.S. political resistance to EADS' attempt to partner with Northrop Grumman Corp. (NOC) in the U.S.

Germany, France, the U.K., Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg and Turkey are meeting Thursday to negotiate with Airbus and its parent, EADS, over cost overruns worth several billions of dollars on the much delayed A400M military transport plane project.

EADS executives have warned that failure to back and fund the A400M could lead to severe financial problems for the company.

The deal to develop the A400M transport was clinched in 2003 to enable European military to facilitate deployment in out-of-area missions of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, such as the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan.

"That it is why I want the A400M," Bruederle told the group. He added that it was part of a wider push to support German weapons makers.

"Germans are still a little bit shy in this domain, but we'll work to change this too," Bruederle said.
 

ElectricEel

New Member
That's three times the current US levels - or, even including the vast paramilitary forces, still twice the Chinese levels!
Where did you get your information from? It is a well known fact that China has much fewer troops per capita than the US (around half, in fact). List of countries by number of troops - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Even allowing for your estimates of paramilitary numbers, the calculation goes like this: China has a population more than four times that of the US, so if it were to have 1.5 times the numbers of the US, (just under 3.5 million including paramilitary and reserves), it would need to have 4*1.5*3.5= 21 MILLION. Which it hardly does, having 8.2 million including reserves and paramilitary (or under 9 million if we use your estimates for paramilitary).
 

gunner5"

New Member
The New Superpowers: Germany, Japan

This readable discussion of the future argues that Germany is the principal beneficiary of the dissolution of the Soviet Union, that emulation of the United States has disappeared as a trait in enormously powerful Japan, but that neither Germans nor Japanese know how they will use their new status and power. The author seeks to raise questions rather than offer dogmatic answers. He is not confident that the United States will undertake the domestic reforms necessary for retaining a high level of international influence.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Herodotus, thanks it's a good link. I like the fact that you've taken the discussion from a personal level, point of view, to a geo-political level while taking into account the general discourse on their participation in ISAF within German society.

BTW, do you have any links on 'informal alliances' or something of such similar nature? I mean where two or more countries are not officially tied via an alliance but act in concert in defence matters. I'll be interested to learn more. :)
well I dont have any links but the relation between India and the USSR before its fall may be an example of informal alliance
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Where did you get your information from?
Definitely not from wikipedia. :rolleyes:

There are US-military-sourced reports from 2005 around that estimate the Chinese military at 2.3 million active, 0.8 million army reserve, 1.5 million PAP, 10 million primary militia, and a undisclosed, "presumably larger" ordinary militia. That accounts for a minimum estimate of 14.6 million, with the "presumably larger" additional militia to a minimum of ~25 million.

Make of that what you want.
 

ElectricEel

New Member
Definitely not from wikipedia. :rolleyes:

There are US-military-sourced reports from 2005 around that estimate the Chinese military at 2.3 million active, 0.8 million army reserve, 1.5 million PAP, 10 million primary militia, and a undisclosed, "presumably larger" ordinary militia. That accounts for a minimum estimate of 14.6 million, with the "presumably larger" additional militia to a minimum of ~25 million.

Make of that what you want.
Hang on here - how did your 4.5 million paramilitary suddenly become 11.5 million milita?:confused: inconsistency in the source? And what exactly is the '"presumably larger" additional militia' anyway?
China's Military Capabilities
Is a bit old, and doesn't give the full numbers of militia; but according the source below, the PAP, militia, and reserve forces altogether add up to just under 4 million:
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/060626_asia_balance_powers.pdf
which is an american source
Why don't you support your claims with some sources?
Interestingly, according to the Pentagon, 'all PRC males between
the ages of 18 and 35 not currently serving in the military are technically part of the militia system', so I guess that would mean something like a couple of hundred million :D
 

swerve

Super Moderator
... according the source below, the PAP, militia, and reserve forces altogether add up to just under 4 million:
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/060626_asia_balance_powers.pdf
which is an american source...
Look at the references. It's mostly a presentation of figures derived from the (British) IISS annual Military Balance up to 2005/6.

If I look at my 2007 copy of the Military Balance, I see that it says -
Army 1.6 million
PAP 1.5 million
Reserves (all services) 800 thousand.

It makes no mention of militia.

The CSIS report gives a total figure for 'Paramilitary' of 3 969 000, on page 24. This is an extraordinary figure, as it is clearly the sum of all the numbers given in the Military Balance for the PAP - the total paramilitary (1 500 000), the subtotal for PAP (1 500 000), & the figures given under that for various functions within the PAP, i.e. Border Defence (100 000+), Internal Security (ca 800 000) & Comms (69 000+).

What that says to me is that the people who wrote that report, & by implication the CSIS for publishing it, are a bunch of rank amateurs, who do almost no research (we bought this book for £100 & based our 'analysis' on it), & don't even do the most cursory checking of their report against its source.
 

Friedrich

New Member
Quote to:

nevidimka
Senior Member
Major



Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 967
Wouldnt that bring germany into the level of UK and France? A superpower would need significantly more than that.

For a country as small as Germany that does not have the vast size of USA and Soviet Union, to be considered a superpower, it would need to have a huge power projection capability through its Navy and Air force to compensate for that.
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You are wrong. Germany is already a economical greatpower and got the technologie e.g for a superpower. It also got the weapons. Germany has enought weapons to raise 1 million troops within 2 months, cause they gathered them in the cold war. In addition Germany got the 4th largest weapon industry, it produces masses of tanks e.g for the US and Israel, for example. A lot of the most modern military weapons are made in germany, not in us. And the most modern tanks e.g from the US are just improved versions of old german tanks, some even got parts made in germany.



Germany could easy beat UK/France/Poland right now, if they would want to, cause France/Uk/Poland do not got the industry to win a war with Germany, cause it would be able to outrun the military industry of france, poland and france, so over time france/poland and UK could´t do anything.


The only thing which stopps germany of becoming superpower again (it was already 3 times superpower, Holy Roman Empire German Nation, German Empire and Nazi Germany.

Are nuclear weapons and the will of the population, but cause the most people are too liberal to only think about war, it will not happen soon. But i´m sure it will happen again, cause the 2 world war is only 50 years over and Germany got a lot of potential... there will be a time the german people forgett hitler and than there will be another one who mobilizes the nation.
 

John Sansom

New Member
Quote to:

nevidimka
Senior Member
Major



Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 967
Wouldnt that bring germany into the level of UK and France? A superpower would need significantly more than that.

For a country as small as Germany that does not have the vast size of USA and Soviet Union, to be considered a superpower, it would need to have a huge power projection capability through its Navy and Air force to compensate for that.
--------------


You are wrong. Germany is already a economical greatpower and got the technologie e.g for a superpower. It also got the weapons. Germany has enought weapons to raise 1 million troops within 2 months, cause they gathered them in the cold war. In addition Germany got the 4th largest weapon industry, it produces masses of tanks e.g for the US and Israel, for example. A lot of the most modern military weapons are made in germany, not in us. And the most modern tanks e.g from the US are just improved versions of old german tanks, some even got parts made in germany.



Germany could easy beat UK/France/Poland right now, if they would want to, cause France/Uk/Poland do not got the industry to win a war with Germany, cause it would be able to outrun the military industry of france, poland and france, so over time france/poland and UK could´t do anything.


The only thing which stopps germany of becoming superpower again (it was already 3 times superpower, Holy Roman Empire German Nation, German Empire and Nazi Germany.

Are nuclear weapons and the will of the population, but cause the most people are too liberal to only think about war, it will not happen soon. But i´m sure it will happen again, cause the 2 world war is only 50 years over and Germany got a lot of potential... there will be a time the german people forgett hitler and than there will be another one who mobilizes the nation.
And the point I get from your post, Friederich, is that the populace of any country moving toward the status of super power--or any position of significant strength--must take great care that its leadership is not made up of madmen who pivot on the axis of hatred and worship their own paranoia.

Sadly, there is no guarantee in this respect.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@Friedrich
Oh my, so many false assumptions in your post that I don't know were to start...

US tanks just improved versions of older German tanks...completely wrong
Enough weapons to raise a 1 Million men army out of nothing...we don't have the weapons, reserve system or structure for this anymore.
Able to go toe on toe with the UK, France and Poland...even forgetting all of us being part of NATO and EU the Bundeswehr is in no way superior to even the UK or France alone.

And that somebody like Hitler radicalizes and mobilizes the masses is IMO highly unlikely. If you are German you should know how deeply embedded pacifism is right now.
 

Friedrich

New Member
i didnt say every or most are improved german versions, but i said SOME, so i dont know improved frensh tank versions, or that US improve russian tanks or sth.


In addition i said in some generations, like 100 years or more. I dont think that they will stay calm for 1000 years. Times always changing and so german people will forgett hitler, like the germans forgott napoleon´s rule.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
i didnt say every or most are improved german versions, but i said SOME
There are no US tanks based on German tanks. Also, the USA currently only has a single MBT family.

like the germans forgott napoleon´s rule.
When exactly was that? In Prussia maybe, or other at the time insignificant North German fiefdoms. Down here we still call the Badenser Gelbfüßler today - for their turncoat action in 1805, joining Napoleon against the third coalition (and being rewarded for it by Napoleon the next year)...
 

John Sansom

New Member
i didnt say every or most are improved german versions, but i said SOME, so i dont know improved frensh tank versions, or that US improve russian tanks or sth.


In addition i said in some generations, like 100 years or more. I dont think that they will stay calm for 1000 years. Times always changing and so german people will forgett hitler, like the germans forgott napoleon´s rule.
Past glories are always a problem. Italy's "political" leadership in the thirties thought back to the glory days of Rome and, in the forties, brought absolute disaster down on the Italian people. Will Mussolini be forgotten in a thousand years? Probably. But it isn't a "given" and the whole tenor of the world's social structure is now shifting. Heaven alone knows what a hundred or even a thouand years will bring.:daz
 

swerve

Super Moderator
i didnt say every or most are improved german versions, but i said SOME, so i dont know improved frensh tank versions, or that US improve russian tanks or sth.
As Kato says, the USA has only one type of tank now, & the only part of that based on a German original is the gun. Everything else is American, as with every other US tank for the last 70 years, I think.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
I read there are moves to bring Germany into the new Anglo-France partnership, specifically for a common pooling of A400 and air refueling assets. The UK and France still need to save defence costs, so pooling logistics, training and time-sharing refuelers may prove the desired way forward. By focusing on supporting assets (rather than spear point) we may negate the problems associated with country specific restricting caveats impacting front-line operations as both the A400's and refuelers should remain far enough away from any 'bullet and bayonet' confrontations.
 
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