i personally think that PAF doesn't need big bombers like the ones you have mentioned. i think the mirage 2000 or f-15 is good enough. at the moment PAFs job is to protect our borders. we are a defensive airforce. i think it is only good to have moajor bombers in your airforce if you have enough aircraft to back it/them up.
Pakistans Modernization
- Thread starter Ahsan1
- Start date
mysterious
New Member
Good point PAF. Hope that strikes a chord kashifshahzad. No hard feelings, but you have to consider what PAF operational strategy is before expressing your wish list. Multi-role aircraft is what PAF is aiming for and that is exactly what it should be doing because bombers are just not going to be really compatible with PAF strategy vis a vis India.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Dear mates where it is mentioned in our relegion or in the policies that we should only defend our boarders and and remain a defencive force and do not try to do a pre emptive strike. India did say in the past that it can do a pre emptive strike on Pakistan so man if India invades Pakistan then what are we gonna do just sit and see.P.A.F said:
Mate India is a big country it has big resources and big economy as compared to Pakistan . India is making progress in all fields of defence same like a super power ok i explain step by step.
Air Force
FIGHTERS
1.MiG-21FL FISHBED-D
2.MiG-21M/MF Fishbed J - Type 96
3.MiG-21bis Fishbed N - Type 95
4 MiG-21 Bison - Type 95
5 MiG-21U/UM/US Mongol - Type 66
6 MiG-21 Drawings
7 MiG-23MF/UM Flogger
8 MiG-23BN Flogger
9 MiG-25R/U Foxbat
10 MiG-27M Flogger
11 MiG-29B/S/UB Fulcrum
12 Su-30K/MK-1 Flanker
13 Su-30MKI Flanker
14 Dassault Mirage 2000H/TH
15 SEPECAT Jaguar IS/IB
16 SEPECAT Jaguar IM
17 HAL/ADA Tejas [Light Combat Aircraft]
18 Sea Harrier
TRAINERS
• HAL HJT-36
• HAL HJT-16 Kiran Mk.1/1A
• HAL HJT-16 Kiran Mk.II
• HAL HPT-32 Deepak
TRANSPORTS
• Illyushin Il-78 and Air to Air Refuelling
• IL-76MD Gajraj
• An-32 Sutlej
• Dornier Do-228-101
• HAL HS 748M Avro
• Boeing 737
HELICOPTERS
• HAL Dhruv
• Mil Mi-8
• Mil Mi-17
• Mil Mi-25/35
• Mil Mi-26
• HAL Cheetah
• HAL Chetak
Bombers
Canberra
TU-22M Backfire
TU-95 Bear (Tu-142)
In army they are aquiring latest tanks from other countries and in Navy they have an Air Craft Carrier and in space Tech they went in space too in Missile they have longer range .So dear what do you say sit calm and see.
They will strike us by saying pre emptive strike distroy our airports and ports I think you know how much ports does Pak have if our misslies are 10 min late then Indian missiles will do their job their bomber will come and bulldose our all strategic essits
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #44
Your right Kashif. We need a bomber, but dont you think that F-16 Block 52 will do the job? And in the future there is the best and only good choice to tackle all these problems, and when I am going to say that name you probably wont resist to agree with me.....I am about to say...Rafale.!!
Isn't a fighter? No matter what you do, this baby will do all the things. This baby will detect all the Indian fighters before they will detect us. It has damn fat ass payload when its going to release the bombs you know what will happen. With 14 hard points it will carryout attacks deep inside enemys territory, imagine how many WVRs, BVRs, and Bombs it will carry, and do you know how many fighters are gonna go down when its gonna be flying? So the thing is we need it no matter how expensive it is, we have waited enough, PAF have waited enough we need a superclass fighter as we all know to counter Su-30, which I hate the most. It is a beast who is killing us badly. By buying Rafale we will get lot of weapons from the France.
About acquiring it, we should do something about the loan, pitch in money with Saudis and as we all know they will go for it. They have money they will make the price down a little bit.
So Imagine:
Isn't a fighter? No matter what you do, this baby will do all the things. This baby will detect all the Indian fighters before they will detect us. It has damn fat ass payload when its going to release the bombs you know what will happen. With 14 hard points it will carryout attacks deep inside enemys territory, imagine how many WVRs, BVRs, and Bombs it will carry, and do you know how many fighters are gonna go down when its gonna be flying? So the thing is we need it no matter how expensive it is, we have waited enough, PAF have waited enough we need a superclass fighter as we all know to counter Su-30, which I hate the most. It is a beast who is killing us badly. By buying Rafale we will get lot of weapons from the France.
About acquiring it, we should do something about the loan, pitch in money with Saudis and as we all know they will go for it. They have money they will make the price down a little bit.
So Imagine:
- Rafales 40-60
- F-16s 111
- JF-17 150
- Mirage ROSE upgrade 100
the role of bombers have been taken over by cruise missiles so i doubt india will ever bother using bombers (bombers are too expensive,vulnerable,fuel consuming and maintenance intensive).the canberras are used for electronic warfare and training,tu95 bear and the tu22m and il38 may are to be used for maritime strike ,electronic warfare,surveillence ,they will be used as nuclear bombers only in an emergency,you might have noticed that indian navy only intends to lease 4 tu22 bombers indian airforce is not at all interested in them actually iaf is to retire its canberra squadron too.:coffee
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Dear mate what do you think about a strategic bomber acumpunied by e.g F-16's or Mirages on the back this will make a good combination.Dear if you are not getting the best then take the second best the radar on the second place after AESA dosent matter what kind of AC it is may be Rafale it do look upgradation of F-16 to me other may not agree.
If rafale have this kind of capebilities then this is the right thing to go for it must consider others too the plane a bit expensive having no sanctions can do all the job having good avionics on it easy handling extreme manuvrability and can carry all type of payloads.
I think this will suite the best
F-16's the number you mentioned
JF-17 thunders as interpreters (This plane will surely in our PAF after some years)
Mirages upgraded versions
F-7's and A-5's for back ups for some years the retirement to these planes will create a big gap to fill in.
And the question of other Combat Multirole plane remains unanswered may be PAF would not be willing to buy other planes after having block 52 F-16's till 2010 or may want some other plane that surpas the F-16 or it should be at least equal to the F-16's .As far as i know is this the Rafale has lesses combat radius (range)as compared to the F-16's but this backdraw can be covered by the other factors like payload avionics etc .So mate hope for the best
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Mate explain plz how Mirages cant be used as bombers I think they dont have that much range and dont have that much payload capability isant it if there is any thing else then tell mesrirangan said:
Get some Scalps and make use of them. I doubt Any of the two nation can Afford a fleet of B-52 (unless you'd rather starve the armed Forces). Rather why would you need them. the USAF uses the B-52 to Project force globally unless you want to do the same i really don't see any sense in Packing B-52 in your Enemies Airspace. a terrain Following Cruise Missile would do just as much damage at a fraction of the cost.
YOu could put scalps on them. and if PAF is any good at its Design they could develop conformal tanks for the Mirages (As they did for the F-7or F-6 at some point (if i recall right)). that would free up some pylons and you could add an equivlant ammount of Scalps.kashifshahzad said:
mysterious
New Member
I dont know why these kids are obsessed with bombers! First priority of the PAF is to ensure air superiority in its own skies in a defensive mode so that they can bleed the aggressor to death until he loses all taste for battle. No use for bombers for a long long time as I see it. Cruise missiles could do the same job much more effectively and economically.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Myst do we have cruise missiles and i am not saying that we sould have a fleet of B-52's have a bomber having maximum 5000km range this is enough they may be 1-5 in number but they will do the job in critical circumstancesmysterious said:
well i think PAF should be like this.
f-16-----------------------> 100
JF-17----------------------> 150
mirage rose, f-7----------------> as many as there are airworthy.
Rafale, mirage 2000? or gripen------> 50-60
all these aircraft linked to a few AWACs
and finally fill pakistan with around 500+ long range SAMs.
if this is to happen then theres no messing:coffee
The army n navy can do the rest because i assure u that no airforce would dare enter pakistan. infact put a SAM on every corner of the streets
(joking)
f-16-----------------------> 100
JF-17----------------------> 150
mirage rose, f-7----------------> as many as there are airworthy.
Rafale, mirage 2000? or gripen------> 50-60
all these aircraft linked to a few AWACs
and finally fill pakistan with around 500+ long range SAMs.
if this is to happen then theres no messing:coffee
The army n navy can do the rest because i assure u that no airforce would dare enter pakistan. infact put a SAM on every corner of the streets
(joking)kashifshahzad
Banned Member
I an not saying that we are gonna buy B-52's other day you will say that PAF is gonna buy the B-2 spirits so let me clear at this stage that PAF should have a bomber that could do the carpet bombing after the clearance of skies .Trying for a bomber is not a bad thing i dont know that prices of the bombers i think one will cost about the price of two F-16's guess only.Ahsan1 said:Guys come to the reality, we are gonna buy B-52s?
Lets get real..Rafale is the only choice to complete all defence capabilites..
Ahsan
Pak Revolution
100+ --------- F-16's goodP.A.F said:
150 --------- JF-17's good
Mirages rose , F-7 , F-7 PG's , A-5's ----------- must survive till 2010-2015
10 AC >>>>>>>> 1 AWACS when on mission
500+ SAM's are too small in number they must be 5000+ there must be 2-3 layers of shoulder launched SAM's on the boarder this will help in the reduction of number of planes of the enemy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahsan1
Guys come to the reality, we are gonna buy B-52s?
Lets get real..Rafale is the only choice to complete all defence capabilites..
Ahsan
Pak Revolution
I an not saying that we are gonna buy B-52's other day you will say that PAF is gonna buy the B-2 spirits so let me clear at this stage that PAF should have a bomber that could do the carpet bombing after the clearance of skies .Trying for a bomber is not a bad thing i dont know that prices of the bombers i think one will cost about the price of two F-16's guess only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
well i think PAF should be like this.
f-16-----------------------> 100
JF-17----------------------> 150
mirage rose, f-7----------------> as many as there are airworthy.
Rafale, mirage 2000? or gripen------> 50-60
all these aircraft linked to a few AWACs
and finally fill pakistan with around 500+ long range SAMs.
if this is to happen then theres no messing
The army n navy can do the rest because i assure u that no airforce would dare enter pakistan. infact put a SAM on every corner of the streets (joking)
100+ --------- F-16's good
150 --------- JF-17's good
Mirages rose , F-7 , F-7 PG's , A-5's ----------- must survive till 2010-2015
10 AC >>>>>>>> 1 AWACS when on mission
500+ SAM's are too small in number they must be 5000+ there must be 2-3 layers of shoulder launched SAM's on the boarder this will help in the reduction of number of planes of the enemy
you have to keep in mind that pakistan already has many SAMs. we however need quality long range SAMs. by the way do you have any idea of how much 5000+ SAMs would cost us. 500 long range SAMs would do perfectly to fit a already very tight budget.
PAF forget about 5000 SAMs but do u know the cost of 500 Long Range SAMs.P.A.F said:
I think by Long Range SAMs u mean greater than 100km,
If u take the cost of S-300(Generally people think russian weapons are cheaper.),A Single S-300 System which consists of 12 Launchers costs 166 Million Dollars.
For 500 Launchers it costs somewhere about 7 Billion Dollars.
Is it possible for Pakistan to afford 7 Billion Dollars for just Air Defence.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
ajay_ijn said:
SAM's can do half of the work which the fighter aircrafts do i.e overcoming the thread of aircrafts i think some types of SAM's are locally produced in WAH but we also have cortale and SA-2 for air defence WAH has to produce some long range SAM's that will help in the over all defence of the forcesP.A.F said:
Pakistani, Surface To Air Missile (SAM)
SA-2 Surface To Air Missile
Class: Medium Range, Surface to Air Missile System
Origin: China Length: 10.7 meters
Diameter: 70.0 cm
Tail Span: 54.0 cm
Weight: 2300.0 Kg
Warhead: 130 Kg High Explosive
Propulsion: Solid Propellant Booser with Liquid Propellant Sustainer
Guidance: Radio Command
Max Speed: 3.5 Mach
Max Range: 60 KM
Ceiling: 85,000 feet
Cortale Surface To Air Missile
Mobile, Automatic, All Weather Surface to Air Missile System
Origin: France
Length: 2.94 Meters
Diameter: 16.0 Cm
Weight: 80.0 Kg
Warhead: 15 Kg High Explosive
Propulsion: Single Stage Solid Propellant
Guidance: Command to Line of Sight
Max Speed: 2.3 Mach
Max Range: 11 KM
Reload Time: 2 min Intercept Range: 10.000m max or 500m min
Anza Mk I, II, III
Class: Manpad, Short range Anti Aircraft Missile
Origil: KRL, Pakistan Length: 1.5 meters
Diameter: 07.2 cm
Weight: 15.0 Kg
Warhead: 0.37 Kg Shaped Charge
Propulsion: Solid Propellant
Guidance: I R Homing
Mistral
In addition to these missiles PAF & Air Defence Command also use French made Mistral missiles with following details avalible
Max Speed: 3.5 Mach
Max Range: 6.0 KM
Warhead: 130 Kg High Explosive
of the missiles you mentioned above the sa-2 and crotale are so outdated that any modern combat aircraft in the region can escape them using ecm and eccm without any problems,the other two missile that is anza and mistral ar i beleive short range low altitude missiles they offer absolutely no protection against ballistic missiles,cruise missiles or high flying jets which are also equipped with decoys ,after the destruction of a mi17 and mig27 by pakistani anza(that time these two did not have self protection systems) all combat aircrafts and helicopters have been fitted with self protection systems and missile warning systems,there were reports that after the shootdown of the pn maritime patrol aircraft a couple of helicopters (mi17's) carrying media personnel were fired at by several surface to air missiles(reportedly shoulder fired) but they still managed to escape without any damage.what pakistan needs is quality medium and long range missiles and mobile short ranged gun cum missile systems.:coffee
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Yeah mate i know that SA-2 is out dated and they were given by China to us and out PAF airdefence is maintaining this for a long period of time i have met to an aromrour who is in airforce and he is a specialist of SA-2 in kahuta (near rawalpindi) he says this misslie is fired on a brunch of planes when 4-5 or more AC's want to attack.He says that they have to maintain this until the new and long range SAM's and short range SAM's arrive . I dont know much about the mistral i only know they are from french origin . Aaaditya you say that the planes and helicopters can run from the Anza suppose one helicopter comes in our area 10 Anza SAM's are fired towards it them what the pilot is gonna doaaaditya said:
Pakistan is going to buy some new SAM systems which will be long range from China they will be specially for the Gwadar deep sea port and it will be fitted on the other locations too
Possible Missile Defenses Pakistani sources interviewed before the IDEAS show, as well as some recent published information, indicates that Pakistan’s leadership is very interested in obtaining a limited missile defense capability, especially to match any prospective Indian missile defenses that could be obtained from Israel or the U.S. This impression was confirmed by sources interviewed at the IDEAS show, while there was general reluctance to discuss the details of any future missile defense system. Published sources indicate that Pakistan is considering the purchase of a new active-guided version of the Chinese FT-2000 surface-to-air missile (SAM). In 1998 Chinese sources disclosed to the author that this SAM, originally designed with a passive seeker intended to attack electronic warfare aircraft, would eventually feature an active-guidance system that would have an anti-tactical ballistic missile (ATBM) capability. In 2003 the FT-2000A was disclosed in a Malaysian defense journal, complete with a new active phased-array radar for long-range missile guidance. The FT-2000 program is believed to stem from the HQ-9 program, which in turn has been described to the author as having benefited from Russian S-300 and U.S. Patriot PAC-2 SAM technology. In an ATBM mode, the FT-2000A might only be useful against short-range Indian missiles like the Prithvi or Dhanush, not against longer-range and thus faster Agni missiles.
FT-2000 SAM: Pakistan is showing great interest in its own ATBM, and a missile-intercept capable version of the Chinese FT-2000A appears to be the most likely choice.