Nuclear Subs for India

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Russia Indefinitely Puts Off Delivery of Nuke Subs to India

again, my comments about significant shifts between India and Russia due to procurement difficulties on current programs is being reinforced with each month.

my sources within IG are stating that it's becoming more noticeable that they will be unable to meet their new force design objectives via Russia. Western builders have quietly been approached and I know of at least two where backdoor negotiations were initiated a year ago - and are now becoming more important.

The supplier-buyer matrix is changing....

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Russia Indefinitely Puts Off Delivery of Nuke Subs to India

(Source: ddi Indian government news; issued Jan. 21, 2009)

In what could be a major setback for India's defence preparedness, Russia has 'indefinitely' postponed the delivery of "Akula-II' class Nerpa nuclear submarine, citing that sea trials were still incomplete.

"The pre-delivery trials have been postponed by the Amur Shipyard as it has no trial crew and is running short of cash," Far Eastern edition of Kommersant daily reported today.

The Amur Shipyard is yet to constitute a new trial team for these class of nuclear submarines after 8th November accident in which 20 members of the trial team were killed during the subs sea trials in Sea of Japan, the paper said.

It said the new team will not be ready before March and would have to undergo up to one year long refresher course before it could be authorized to resume pre-delivery trails.

Under the larger Gorshkov package with Russia, the Indian Navy was to get first of the two Shchuka-B project nuclear submarines on lease last year. But later the Russians revised the delivery schedule to August 2009.

The submarines are being acquired to train the Indian crews for the indigenous submarines being developed under Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project.

"Some members of the trial team, which was on the submarine during last year's accident have died, some are medically unfit, while some others have refused to go to the sea due to psychological reasons," Gennady Bagin, Director of 'Vostok'- a unit of the Amur shipyard, was quoted as saying by the daily.

The accident-hit nuclear submarine is berthed at the cash-strapped 'Vostok' plant and some work is still underway on it despite the cut in the power quota due to non-payment of power bills.

India and Russia have still to renegotiate the deal for the refitting of the aircraft carrier Gorskov with Moscow demanding double the negotiated price of USD 2.5 billion.

The delivery of the warship is already delayed till 2012 and now it appears that Russians may not be able to meet new deadline for the supply of nuclear submarines too.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
again, my comments about significant shifts between India and Russia due to procurement difficulties on current programs is being reinforced with each month.

my sources within IG are stating that it's becoming more noticeable that they will be unable to meet their new force design objectives via Russia. Western builders have quietly been approached and I know of at least two where backdoor negotiations were initiated a year ago - and are now becoming more important.

The supplier-buyer matrix is changing....

----------------------------------------------------------------

Russia Indefinitely Puts Off Delivery of Nuke Subs to India

(Source: ddi Indian government news; issued Jan. 21, 2009)

In what could be a major setback for India's defence preparedness, Russia has 'indefinitely' postponed the delivery of "Akula-II' class Nerpa nuclear submarine, citing that sea trials were still incomplete.

"The pre-delivery trials have been postponed by the Amur Shipyard as it has no trial crew and is running short of cash," Far Eastern edition of Kommersant daily reported today.

The Amur Shipyard is yet to constitute a new trial team for these class of nuclear submarines after 8th November accident in which 20 members of the trial team were killed during the subs sea trials in Sea of Japan, the paper said.

It said the new team will not be ready before March and would have to undergo up to one year long refresher course before it could be authorized to resume pre-delivery trails.

Under the larger Gorshkov package with Russia, the Indian Navy was to get first of the two Shchuka-B project nuclear submarines on lease last year. But later the Russians revised the delivery schedule to August 2009.

The submarines are being acquired to train the Indian crews for the indigenous submarines being developed under Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project.

"Some members of the trial team, which was on the submarine during last year's accident have died, some are medically unfit, while some others have refused to go to the sea due to psychological reasons," Gennady Bagin, Director of 'Vostok'- a unit of the Amur shipyard, was quoted as saying by the daily.

The accident-hit nuclear submarine is berthed at the cash-strapped 'Vostok' plant and some work is still underway on it despite the cut in the power quota due to non-payment of power bills.

India and Russia have still to renegotiate the deal for the refitting of the aircraft carrier Gorskov with Moscow demanding double the negotiated price of USD 2.5 billion.

The delivery of the warship is already delayed till 2012 and now it appears that Russians may not be able to meet new deadline for the supply of nuclear submarines too.
which Western shipbuilder would be allowed to build nuclear subs for India though? Or are you referring to carrier here, which is sort of expected.
 

kay_man

New Member
I can't see any western power except France doing it.
Well i dont see why any western power has to build nuclear subs for India.
India has already built 1 ATV and will buld more.
Also it is licence producing Scorpenes.
So i believe from here on India could do with tech inputs rather than the buying the whole sub.:confused:
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well i dont see why any western power has to build nuclear subs for India.
It's a technology issue - India does not have any exposure or experience in acoustic management.

a sub without decent signal management is - "just a sub"
 

dragonfire

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26
Well i dont see why any western power has to build nuclear subs for India.
India has already built 1 ATV and will buld more.
Also it is licence producing Scorpenes.
So i believe from here on India could do with tech inputs rather than the buying the whole sub.:confused:
Apart from the ATV project India has not built any submarine by itself (and the ATV is not complete yet) not even conventional subs, only licensed production of a couple of HDW 209/1500 Shishumar class subs and the current Scorpene production. Bottom Line is India needs subs and it should excercise all options for it
 

kay_man

New Member
Apart from the ATV project India has not built any submarine by itself (and the ATV is not complete yet) not even conventional subs, only licensed production of a couple of HDW 209/1500 Shishumar class subs and the current Scorpene production. Bottom Line is India needs subs and it should excercise all options for it
the thing is that i dont think you can sell or buy a nuke sub.
you can rent one i guess and develop one but not buy.
 

funtz

New Member
The only way to do it is to do it and keep on improving as you do it.

As far as the nuclear sub is concerened, developing them, constant improvment and coming out with successive generations is going to lake a long long time, otherwise we will keep on paying the russians/french/americans etc. of second hand/dumbed down technology.
 

dragonfire

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  • #29
the thing is that i dont think you can sell or buy a nuke sub.
you can rent one i guess and develop one but not buy.
Is this part of some treaty which prevents technology being sold to other states, if so pl mention which treaty/ agreement/ arangement/ this is covered under
 

dragonfire

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
It's a technology issue - India does not have any exposure or experience in acoustic management.

a sub without decent signal management is - "just a sub"
gf0012-aust: could you pl point me to some online reading material about this - would like to know more, also how would you rate the PLAN and PN in the same aspects

Also is there any restriction on sale of nuclear submarines by nuc powers
 

lalitghag

New Member
Name: Advanced Technology Vessel
Builders: Shipbuilding Centre (SBC), Vishakapatnam
Operators: Naval flag of India Indian Navy
In commission: 2010 (est.)
Building: 3
Planned: 6
Completed: 0
Active: 0
General characteristics
Type: SSBN
Displacement: 5,500 – 6,500 tons (Est.)
Length: 104m (341.2ft) (Est.)
Beam: 15m (49.2ft) (Est.)
Draft: 9m (29.5ft) (Est.)
Propulsion: Nuclear: one pressurized water reactor (PWR) using 40% enriched uranium fuel (160-190MW); one turbine (47,000hp/70MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller. (Est.)
Speed: 12-15 (surfaced) 30-34 (submerged). (Est.)
Range: unlimited except by food supplies
Test depth: 300 m (984.2ft). (Est.)
Complement: 100
Sensors and
processing systems: USHUS Sonar
Armament: 12 * Sagarika
or 4 * Agni-III (Under development)
 

dragonfire

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #32
Name: Advanced Technology Vessel
Builders: Shipbuilding Centre (SBC), Vishakapatnam
Operators: Naval flag of India Indian Navy
In commission: 2010 (est.)
Building: 3
Planned: 6
Completed: 0
Active: 0
General characteristics
Type: SSBN
Displacement: 5,500 – 6,500 tons (Est.)
Length: 104m (341.2ft) (Est.)
Beam: 15m (49.2ft) (Est.)
Draft: 9m (29.5ft) (Est.)
Propulsion: Nuclear: one pressurized water reactor (PWR) using 40% enriched uranium fuel (160-190MW); one turbine (47,000hp/70MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller. (Est.)
Speed: 12-15 (surfaced) 30-34 (submerged). (Est.)
Range: unlimited except by food supplies
Test depth: 300 m (984.2ft). (Est.)
Complement: 100
Sensors and
processing systems: USHUS Sonar
Armament: 12 * Sagarika
or 4 * Agni-III (Under development)
Only one ATV is under construction - the ATV once commisioned may even become only a technological demonstrator, however the govt is planning 5-6 of them, i hope they change the design a bit after the first 3 a bit longer, stealthier, with a better power plant for which the re-fueling requirments should be after longer periods
 

dragonfire

New Member
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  • #33
News Update

'India's secret N-submarine project nearing completion'
12 Feb 2009, 0346 hrs IST

In a boost to India's long-standing aim to have "a nuclear weapon triad", defence minister A K Antony on Wednesday said the secretive
programme to construct indigenous nuclear submarines was on the verge of completion now.

"Things are in the final stage now in the ATV (advanced technology vessel) project. There were bottlenecks earlier...they are over now," said Antony, during the ongoing Aero India-2009 here.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...n-final-stages-Antony/articleshow/4114292.cms

--

Well the article goes on to state tht there are 3 nuc-subs being constructed now, so i would be wrong in my earlier posts. Good news is the Defense Minister's statements about how the problem areas have been resolved, could be interpreted that the subs will get into the trials without any further delays.

My only concern was the projected completion date of 2025 if the first hull has been integrated with the Miniaturised Reactor it leaves about 16 years for the rest four which averages out to 4 yrs, but the report talks about three subs undergoing construction which means simultaneous efforts - makes one wonder....

The cost factor also looked good at 14K crore (@ 40/dollar it's 3.5 Billion USD) for 5 subs. Yeah the report says 5 subs - all SSBNs. I hope they develop a longer range variant of the Project K-15 sagarika SLBM though as a the primary second strike nuclear deterrent
 

dragonfire

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #34
Nerpa nuc-sub starts sea trials

Russia's Nerpa nuclear sub starts sea trials in Far East

VLADIVOSTOK, July 31 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Nerpa nuclear attack submarine, damaged in a fatal accident during tests in November last year, started on Friday the second stage of new sea trials, a source involved in the tests said.

The vessel resumed sea trials on July 10 in the Sea of Japan following extensive repairs. The first stage of new sea trials was successfully completed on Monday.

"The submarine left dock at the Vostok repair facility in the town of Bolshoy Kamen in the Primorye Territory and headed for the Sea of Japan," the source said.

Russia's Nerpa nuclear sub starts sea trials in Far East | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
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The sea trials of the future IN INS Chakra has started and this after the on-board disaster of Nov'08 comes as a welcome relief for IN - as this will look better for it's Russian collaboration. Also the first operational nuc-sub in this century for IN would be the INS Chakra and not the INS Arihant as per the schedule mentioned in the article
 

Zaitsev

New Member
Is this part of some treaty which prevents technology being sold to other states, if so pl mention which treaty/ agreement/ arangement/ this is covered under
I dont think it falls into any treaty..hte thing the governments wont let a technology which has been developed with lot of toil and hardwork and research just being sold like that for some money....its like this...do you imagine india to sell its nuclear sub techniology to any country now that it has developed one
 

dragonfire

New Member
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  • #36
I dont think it falls into any treaty..hte thing the governments wont let a technology which has been developed with lot of toil and hardwork and research just being sold like that for some money....its like this...do you imagine india to sell its nuclear sub techniology to any country now that it has developed one
The Indian ATV programme itself was in cooperation with Russia. As was evident from the fact that Russian emmisaries were present at the launch cerimonies and the Russians were thanked by the PM. I doubt India will sell it's nuc-sub tech, but perhaps russia would be a better seller anyways, they have the tech and need the money too
 

kay_man

New Member
The Indian ATV programme itself was in cooperation with Russia. As was evident from the fact that Russian emmisaries were present at the launch cerimonies and the Russians were thanked by the PM. I doubt India will sell it's nuc-sub tech, but perhaps russia would be a better seller anyways, they have the tech and need the money too
not to mention indian shipbuilders will be busy for many years to come trying to fullfill IN requirements alone.
 

dragonfire

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #38
not to mention indian shipbuilders will be busy for many years to come trying to fullfill IN requirements alone.
Oh yeah, with around 35 ships of various sizes being built for the IN - it is definitely good news for the ship builders, also subs are being built - the ATV project's hull is being built by L&T - a new entrant in this space - all together this means a lot for the Learning curve for Indian shipbuilders. Apart from nuc-subs and scorpene subs, stealthy destroyers, frigates and interceptor boats as well as corvettes being bult there is also the Aircraft Carrier being built. Altogether :india

Facilities at MDL, GRSE, Cochin Shiyard, L&T's Gujarat facilities, Goa ship yard are the main players. The exposure will be good for India to eventualy evolve as a cost effective ship building destination
 

dragonfire

New Member
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  • #39
Wiki is now stating that India is planning to build a different class of SSBNs which would be longer than the recently launched Arihant Class as well as SSNs which would perform attack and escort duties to the SSBNs. The numbers would be 3 for the new class of SSBNs and 8 for the SSN. The second hull of the Arihant class is under construction, earlier reports suggest a number of 3 for the Arihant class. Which means a total of 6 SSBNs in two classes and 8 SSNs, totaling 14 Nuclear powered Submarines and probably two Russian subs on Lease

Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

kay_man

New Member
Wiki is now stating that India is planning to build a different class of SSBNs which would be longer than the recently launched Arihant Class as well as SSNs which would perform attack and escort duties to the SSBNs. The numbers would be 3 for the new class of SSBNs and 8 for the SSN. The second hull of the Arihant class is under construction, earlier reports suggest a number of 3 for the Arihant class. Which means a total of 6 SSBNs in two classes and 8 SSNs, totaling 14 Nuclear powered Submarines and probably two Russian subs on Lease

Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is quite old news.
Although larger SSBNs and nuclear attack subs seem like the next logical step, so for its only speculation. No concrete news on it from any reliable source.
 
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