JSF v EuroFighter in AA combat
- Thread starter Big-E
- Start date
So many different factors to consider...Big-E said:
I think an E-3 would be able to pick up even an F-22 or an F-117...it's the point at which it picks them up that is the consideration here.
All things being equal in a nose to nose merge situation, the JSF should see the Eurofighter first. If the Eurofighter gets CAPTOR and its IRST is working fine, I think the RCS advantage the JSF will enjoy will be the deciding factor.
If the JSF and Eurofighter were approaching an E-3 together, the E-3 will see the Eurofighter long before.
A JSF approaching the E-3 or a Eurofighter under the E-3's control will appear as a spurious or inconsistent contact at first. If he makes his approach cleverly (i.e. not a 600+ knots straight in approach) using course and altitude changes, he may continue to be treated as spurious until he can get an AIM-120 shot off, by which time it's too late. I doubt a Eurofighter would get within 200nm of any E-3 without being spotted and identified.
Magoo
You think about how stealth really works. For example the EF is said to have a radar profile of a little bit less than 1m² (Front). The F-22 (I doubt that the F-35 has the same profile) shall be near to have a profile 4 times less than the EF (round about 0.25m²). The F-117 for example has a front profile of less than 0,05m².
But the detection range is not negotiated with the same rate.
A little formula (Fore sure it's to easy but it is enough to show what I mean):
RCS(reduced)/RCS(not reduced)^0,25
->(0,25m²/1m²)^0,25=ca. 0,71
So when an EF is detected within 100km the F-22 will be detected within 71km. Lets say that the stealth works better than expected and take into account that my formula is very vague, so the F-22 is detected at 50km. Even than the F-35 (Which is not going to be as stealthy as the Raptor) is not as stealt capable as somebody could think.
It is not nearly an F-117 with air to air capabilities. For sure the stealth gives it some advantages but nevertheless it is not a holy graile.
PS: You US boys should never laugh again about our european developments:
F-22 Raptor after Canopy
Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force. :
But the detection range is not negotiated with the same rate.
A little formula (Fore sure it's to easy but it is enough to show what I mean):
RCS(reduced)/RCS(not reduced)^0,25
->(0,25m²/1m²)^0,25=ca. 0,71
So when an EF is detected within 100km the F-22 will be detected within 71km. Lets say that the stealth works better than expected and take into account that my formula is very vague, so the F-22 is detected at 50km. Even than the F-35 (Which is not going to be as stealthy as the Raptor) is not as stealt capable as somebody could think.
It is not nearly an F-117 with air to air capabilities. For sure the stealth gives it some advantages but nevertheless it is not a holy graile.
PS: You US boys should never laugh again about our european developments:
F-22 Raptor after Canopy
Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force.
:
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #26
Why bring up the US in this thread? JSF is a multi-national effort with many EU partners along with the EF. If you want to be on the recieving end of a raptor, be my guest.Waylander said:PS: You US boys should never laugh again about our european developments:
Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force.
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Did you read what I had written before?
"Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force."
Does this sounds like US bashing?
I know that the F-35 is a multinational project (With some struggling about who gets to know what ).
"Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force."
Does this sounds like US bashing?
I know that the F-35 is a multinational project (With some struggling about who gets to know what
).- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #29
I don't need to worry about range with an AIM-120D.Waylander said:
If JSF can get within range of a EF with the same version of AMRAAM she will fire first. By the the time EF picks up the AMRAAM she already has to start evasive maneuvers. Even if she gets a shot off the JSF bays will be closed and the AMRAAMs mid course guidance will be useless as JSF pulls out of the E-3s detection range.I am not that sure that an F-35 is able to get a shot at, lets say, max. 150km. The EF than has not only to be detected by the AWAACS at more than 150km (That may not be the problem) but the F-35 own radar has to be able to track the EF (Which is not going to fly like a passengers jet) at this range.
And for example there are also no real facts about how good the stealth capabilities of the F-35 work against METEOR or how easy it is to hit an EF with its ECM and maneuvering capabilities at 150km with an AIM-120D.
Even in Kosovo, etc. there haven't been that much BVR kills against jets much less capable than the EF. BVR is not that easy as it sounds especially not at such extreme ranges.
I have no doubt that the stealth capabilites of the F-35 gives it some advantage in BVR combat but your posts sound a little bit too much like "The F-35 is going to kick ass long before the EF is coming close".
And for example there are also no real facts about how good the stealth capabilities of the F-35 work against METEOR or how easy it is to hit an EF with its ECM and maneuvering capabilities at 150km with an AIM-120D.
Even in Kosovo, etc. there haven't been that much BVR kills against jets much less capable than the EF. BVR is not that easy as it sounds especially not at such extreme ranges.
I have no doubt that the stealth capabilites of the F-35 gives it some advantage in BVR combat but your posts sound a little bit too much like "The F-35 is going to kick ass long before the EF is coming close".
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #31
The F-35s data-link to the E-3 will provide all the data for MC guidance. You don't have to depend on the F-35s radar. If EF is able to get the first shot off and can track the JSF then they will get the kill. When you are fighting a long range BVR battle it all comes down to how well you can track the target. JSF has a clear advantage in this scenerio. EF takes JSF hands down in a dog fight.Waylander said:
This may or may not be true, but one factor you're not taking into account is, the F-22/F-35 will be carrying all of its weapons internally, whereas the Eurofighter will be carrying its on dirty, filthy, radar reflecting external pylons. It's all well and good to compare RCSs, but your methodology compares an armed aircraft to an unarmed aircraft.Waylander said:You think about how stealth really works. For example the EF is said to have a radar profile of a little bit less than 1m² (Front). The F-22 (I doubt that the F-35 has the same profile) shall be near to have a profile 4 times less than the EF (round about 0.25m²). The F-117 for example has a front profile of less than 0,05m².
But the detection range is not negotiated with the same rate.
A little formula (Fore sure it's to easy but it is enough to show what I mean):
RCS(reduced)/RCS(not reduced)^0,25
->(0,25m²/1m²)^0,25=ca. 0,71
So when an EF is detected within 100km the F-22 will be detected within 71km. Lets say that the stealth works better than expected and take into account that my formula is very vague, so the F-22 is detected at 50km. Even than the F-35 (Which is not going to be as stealthy as the Raptor) is not as stealt capable as somebody could think.
It is not nearly an F-117 with air to air capabilities. For sure the stealth gives it some advantages but nevertheless it is not a holy graile.
No offense taken, especially as I'm neither American or European, but it was a pretty dumb comment anyway. Of course, European aircraft work perfectly at all times, don't they??? :crazy . If it's a joke, I doubt anyone laughed nor even saw the funny side of it.Waylander said:PS: You US boys should never laugh again about our european developments: F-22 Raptor after Canopy
Just a little joke, no offense. We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force.
Magoo
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
AND "draggy" external pylons, whilst F-35 will carry up to 6x AAM's internally, with greater fuel loads than the Eurofighter. If required to "turn and burn" at least the F-35A/C will be able to last longer in the fight, based on pure fuel burn.Magoo said:
The JSF will also have the same amount of thrust as the Eurofighter, despite only having 1 engine. Aircraft weight will depend to a large degree on the loads being carried. Meteor should be more capable than AIM-120D, at least in range performance, however only at a weight and drag penalty...
I think it is not clear what I wanted to say.
The only thing I wanted to say is that one should take into account that the radar visibility is not going down by the same rate stealth capabilities is going up. My little formula was just an example for that.
That the F-35 is carrying it's weapons inside (sometimes, it is not a good bomb truck than and that's one of it's roles in the future) is a plus right and I already said that the stealth gives the JSF an advantage over the EF in BVR but I just don't think that this is as outreageous as some people here might think.
About the fuel. The F-35 is heavier during take off (Round about 4 tons if both jets have full internal tanks and the same payload) would be interesting if the advantage in fuel is still a factor after the take off because there you have to get more weight into the air.
One or two engines is a question of philosophy. The Luftwaffe tends to twon engine aircrafts and if the plane is going to operate often above water it is a law that it has to have twin engines. And having two engines is no doubt a + in survivability.
About the little joke. What is your problem? Don't tell me it's funny that they have to call the fire department to get a pilot out of a multi-million dollar jet. I would also laugh about that if this would be an EF, Rafale, Gripen, whatever...
And that sentence tells you everything:
"We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force"
That means that normally US Air Force/Navy is so often the ultimate king of the hill and I tend to cry if i compare the US capabilities to the european capabilities.
The only thing I wanted to say is that one should take into account that the radar visibility is not going down by the same rate stealth capabilities is going up. My little formula was just an example for that.
That the F-35 is carrying it's weapons inside (sometimes, it is not a good bomb truck than and that's one of it's roles in the future) is a plus right and I already said that the stealth gives the JSF an advantage over the EF in BVR but I just don't think that this is as outreageous as some people here might think.
About the fuel. The F-35 is heavier during take off (Round about 4 tons if both jets have full internal tanks and the same payload) would be interesting if the advantage in fuel is still a factor after the take off because there you have to get more weight into the air.
One or two engines is a question of philosophy. The Luftwaffe tends to twon engine aircrafts and if the plane is going to operate often above water it is a law that it has to have twin engines. And having two engines is no doubt a + in survivability.
About the little joke. What is your problem? Don't tell me it's funny that they have to call the fire department to get a pilot out of a multi-million dollar jet. I would also laugh about that if this would be an EF, Rafale, Gripen, whatever...
And that sentence tells you everything:
"We europeans don't have many chances to laugh about US Air Force"
That means that normally US Air Force/Navy is so often the ultimate king of the hill and I tend to cry if i compare the US capabilities to the european capabilities.
We understand the joke and i personally apologize for the attitude that some members are displaying here, hopefully people will try and stay civil.Waylander said:
I'd just like to add if Tactic would keep the JSF hidden from an E3 the same could be said about EF, we know RAF trains hard in these areas. so lets say it may depend on operators.
That's also my opinion.
Two operator crews working against each other.
With one side trying to bring the EF into a position were he is able to fire METEOR with a good hitting chance or better let him sneak into Dogfight.
On the other side the operators try to track the EF long enough for the JSF to kill him BVR before he comes closer.
Two operator crews working against each other.
With one side trying to bring the EF into a position were he is able to fire METEOR with a good hitting chance or better let him sneak into Dogfight.
On the other side the operators try to track the EF long enough for the JSF to kill him BVR before he comes closer.
contedicavour
New Member
Performance of a Typhoon vs an export version of JSF...
Dear all, why not consider what would happen if a European Typhoon armed with Meteor had to engage an export version of JSF sold by the US to a regime that turned hostile ? Say, like the F-14s sold to pre-revolutionary Iran...
Would a JSF without AWACS support be any match for a dedicated air superiority figher such as the Typhoon ? Honestly I think no match at all.
This way we start creating potentially real fiction instead of wondering how the RAF (or the Luftwaffe, or the Aeronautica Militare Italiana...) would perform vs the USN, which hopefully will never ever be the case !!!
cheers
Dear all, why not consider what would happen if a European Typhoon armed with Meteor had to engage an export version of JSF sold by the US to a regime that turned hostile ? Say, like the F-14s sold to pre-revolutionary Iran...
Would a JSF without AWACS support be any match for a dedicated air superiority figher such as the Typhoon ? Honestly I think no match at all.
This way we start creating potentially real fiction instead of wondering how the RAF (or the Luftwaffe, or the Aeronautica Militare Italiana...) would perform vs the USN, which hopefully will never ever be the case !!!
cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #40
Because like Iran, they wouldn't be able to find the parts to keep them running.contedicavour said:Dear all, why not consider what would happen if a European Typhoon armed with Meteor had to engage an export version of JSF sold by the US to a regime that turned hostile ? Say, like the F-14s sold to pre-revolutionary Iran...
This way we start creating potentially real fiction instead of wondering how the RAF (or the Luftwaffe, or the Aeronautica Militare Italiana...) would perform vs the USN, which hopefully will never ever be the case !!!
cheers
: This is not USN vs the world. Many more countries and branches will be fielding JSF.