Future Russian Aircraft Carrier

Beatmaster

New Member
So the russians planning to build a aircraft carrier?
Just wondering but the russians are indeed stepping up there forces to a more acceptable level than they suppost to have after the great breakdown of the economic system.
Everyone knows that some parts of the naval/air and land forces did not recieve the money they needed to maintain them selfs.
Now russia is climbing slowly out of the problems, but even if they can keep this up it will take many years to upgrade there army in general to today's standard's.
I strongly believe that the russian have some "very hightech parts" and i do believe that they have what it takes to restore some of there old glory.
Hell yeah i even believe that they could create some new assets.
But all this cost many many dollars, and in the current state of the economy world wide i do not think they can keep this up they might even have to step down for a wile to save them selfs from a second breakdown.
Because in the past years we have seen an increase and rebuild of the russian army but we have also seen that alot of idea's did not work out for them.
They might pull this off because they are russians and you can say whatever you like about them but if they planning something than most of the time they will shake heaven and earth to get it thats what history shows us.

But even if they pull this off in the next 20 years they will have to maintain and increase there cashflow and economy.
So far they are doing a pretty good job by rebuilding the russian economy this enables them to fund "new project's" and maintain the current army because not all parts of the army did have enough funding all these years.
And even today many parts are simply rotting away in some big bunker due lack off money.
By rebuilding there economy they can build new assets, replace assets to today's standards and sell old assets that are way out of date.
But still they need many years to regain some level of funding to get there total army up and running again.

So i think that it would be better for the russians to cut there army size and scrap some unneeded parts so that they rest of there army recieve's enough money.
This will give them a more mobile and ready army.
In this case i think that stepping down for the russians is acctually 2 steps ahead.

Otherwise that aircraft carrier will never be finished and ready to set sail.:eek:nfloorl:
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So i think that it would be better for the russians to cut there army size and scrap some unneeded parts so that they rest of there army recieve's enough money.
This will give them a more mobile and ready army.
Much of this has already been done, and more is being done (for example the Russian army is decreasing from 1.1 million, to about 1 million around the 2011 timeframe). Also most of the things rotting away in bunkers are old equipment that will never see the light of day, so it can hardly be due to lack of funds; more due to having too much.

But yes Nevidimka I can see your point. I guess the difference is will it carry once again a single fighter squadron with helo support and a lot of SAM/ASM, or a full fighter regiment with plane-based AEW, and some SAM/ASM.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Much of this has already been done, and more is being done (for example the Russian army is decreasing from 1.1 million, to about 1 million around the 2011 timeframe). Also most of the things rotting away in bunkers are old equipment that will never see the light of day, so it can hardly be due to lack of funds; more due to having too much.

But yes Nevidimka I can see your point. I guess the difference is will it carry once again a single fighter squadron with helo support and a lot of SAM/ASM, or a full fighter regiment with plane-based AEW, and some SAM/ASM.
and of course dealing with the shipyards in particular Servermash and its massive problems. It still seems odd that they decided to build 100,000 ton dry dock in one of the worst managed shipyard
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I suspect political involvement. The other problem could be that the deployment of those ships is planned for the Northern and Pacific fleets. It would be easier on maintenance and testing, as well as repairs, to have the production facilities close to the basing facilities of the fleet. I think it could also have something to do with the consolidation of the Russian surface Navy around the Northern Fleet.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It says that the Russian government has decided to induct the first carrier within the next 10 years for the Pacific Fleet.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
What's your point? It's an official statement of intent. It doesn't mean it will happen, it doesn't mean that those aircraft carriers will not turn out to be aircraft carrying cruisers a la Kuznetsov. Time will tell.
 

PolSciIR

New Member
Difference in Doctrine

One thing I've noticed in reading this thread is the apparent assumption that the Russian Navy wishes to mimic the US Naval Doctrine, which frankly seems unlikely in the slightest.

Their idea of an Aircraft Carrier was to provide air cover to the fleet, not to be the centerpiece of its strike capability. In the USN the complete opposite holds true, with the Carrier providing the central strike capability and the support fleet being secondary. This, and an article I read somewhere on the topic of their new Carriers with a Russian Admiral saying something along the lines of, "It won't be as big as those American monsters." leads me to believe they still have no intention of going along the same doctrine as the United States.

As far as the feasibility of the Russians building up a more modern fleet... yes, it will take time, yes, it will be expensive, but yes, they can do it. After all, if you examine the financial situation of Russia, last i checked they were running a 100BN USD trade surplus with a national debt consisting of only 6.8% of their GDP. If the United States can maintain a fleet of 10 Nimitz-class beasts and still be in the process of constructing 4 more Reagan-class carriers with a national debt consisting of over 60% of the US GDP, there would seem to be no reason Russia could not manage to expand its naval capability, especially while it moves to streamline and restructure its Army to move it away from former Cold War conscript-centric doctrine.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One thing I've noticed in reading this thread is the apparent assumption that the Russian Navy wishes to mimic the US Naval Doctrine, which frankly seems unlikely in the slightest.
I would not entirely agree with this. It's been pretty clear ever since the soviets trotted out fixed wing squadron jet fighter capable carriers that they had different CONOPS to the west.

The soviets/russians were quite clear in separating their intentions and intent for these platforms.

I agree that the general public might see a "carrier as a carrier" and draw some assumptions - but for people who play in the space, dedicated observers and those with more than a passing academic interest - I'd say that they have been more than aware
 

Avid

New Member
Any pictures around to see current Russian carriers? I know they sold an older one to china?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
One thing I've noticed in reading this thread is the apparent assumption that the Russian Navy wishes to mimic the US Naval Doctrine, which frankly seems unlikely in the slightest.

Their idea of an Aircraft Carrier was to provide air cover to the fleet, not to be the centerpiece of its strike capability. In the USN the complete opposite holds true, with the Carrier providing the central strike capability and the support fleet being secondary. This, and an article I read somewhere on the topic of their new Carriers with a Russian Admiral saying something along the lines of, "It won't be as big as those American monsters." leads me to believe they still have no intention of going along the same doctrine as the United States.
But one way or the other the movement away from heavy aircraft carrying cruisers is apparent. Even the Kuznetsov refit is part of that.

As far as the feasibility of the Russians building up a more modern fleet... yes, it will take time, yes, it will be expensive, but yes, they can do it. After all, if you examine the financial situation of Russia, last i checked they were running a 100BN USD trade surplus with a national debt consisting of only 6.8% of their GDP. If the United States can maintain a fleet of 10 Nimitz-class beasts and still be in the process of constructing 4 more Reagan-class carriers with a national debt consisting of over 60% of the US GDP, there would seem to be no reason Russia could not manage to expand its naval capability, especially while it moves to streamline and restructure its Army to move it away from former Cold War conscript-centric doctrine.
The issue isn't only money. It's whether Russian shipbuilding is capable of completing the projects in a timely manner. The Kuznetsov refit will once again serve as a litmus test of that. It's undergoing a similar refit to the Gorshkov, so if it's completed with relatively few problems, then we can say that Russian shipbuilding has learned the lesson and moved on. If on the other hand it experiences similar delays and problems, then we will have to conclude that Russian major shipbuilding is still in a deep crisis, and can not produce new aircraft carriers any time soon.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
But one way or the other the movement away from heavy aircraft carrying cruisers is apparent. Even the Kuznetsov refit is part of that.



The issue isn't only money. It's whether Russian shipbuilding is capable of completing the projects in a timely manner. The Kuznetsov refit will once again serve as a litmus test of that. It's undergoing a similar refit to the Gorshkov, so if it's completed with relatively few problems, then we can say that Russian shipbuilding has learned the lesson and moved on. If on the other hand it experiences similar delays and problems, then we will have to conclude that Russian major shipbuilding is still in a deep crisis, and can not produce new aircraft carriers any time soon.
I find the reporting of Russian programs very difficult as its much harder to find English language developments of major programs, such as Bulava, and other programs.
So what im trying to say is won't it be much harder to keep track of the refit compared with the Gorshkov
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm highly fluent in Russian, so I will do my best to keep up. But to answer your question.... yes. It will be very hard to keep track of the refit. Essentially unless some sort of major corruption scandal, or renegotiation with Sevmash takes place, we will be left to assume that the refit is on track. Given our track history here, some delays and overspending, as long as it isn't a complete clusterfuck, should be expected, and I wouldn't even criticize them to harshly. The project is of a scope that Sevmash has not successfully completed in the last 15-20 years.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm highly fluent in Russian, so I will do my best to keep up. But to answer your question.... yes. It will be very hard to keep track of the refit. Essentially unless some sort of major corruption scandal, or renegotiation with Sevmash takes place, we will be left to assume that the refit is on track. Given our track history here, some delays and overspending, as long as it isn't a complete clusterfuck, should be expected, and I wouldn't even criticize them to harshly. The project is of a scope that Sevmash has not successfully completed in the last 15-20 years.
Ah true at least you have the advantage of language perhaps you help me find out what happened to a few Russian Naval programs. Such as what happened to the Ivan Gren class ships wiki says building started in 2004 and nothing more. Is the only Kara class cruiser updated to a reasonably high standard if not to what level.
Is their a plan B for Borei if Bulava fails.
Is the Kashin class Smetlivy still in service seems old compared with the rest of the fleet

a preemptive thanks
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ah true at least you have the advantage of language perhaps you help me find out what happened to a few Russian Naval programs. Such as what happened to the Ivan Gren class ships wiki says building started in 2004 and nothing more. Is the only Kara class cruiser updated to a reasonably high standard if not to what level.
Is their a plan B for Borei if Bulava fails.
Is the Kashin class Smetlivy still in service seems old compared with the rest of the fleet

a preemptive thanks
A photo of project 1171 Ivan Gren, currently still under construction. Completion date is unclear. As of right now it's 1-2 years after original completion date. The new completion date seems to be 2011, with handover to the VMF in 2012.



У ÐºÐ¾Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð»Ñ Â«Ð˜Ð²Ð°Ð½ Грен» Ð²Ñ‹Ñ€Ð¾Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ñ | Калининград.Ru

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A brief search turned up nothing on the Kara class.

Officially there is no plan B in case Bulava fails, but the reality is that the older Delta-IV subs have all undergone refit, and iirc all but one have new R-29RMU Sineva missiles, a proven weapon system. Their service life has iirc been extended to 2020, but nothing stops them from extending it further.

The Smetliviy is still in service with the Black Sea Fleet, and underwent modernization in the 90s. It's last major overhaul was 2006. Áîëüøîé ïðîòèâîëîäî÷íûé êîðàáëü "Ñìåòëèâûé" ×åðíîìîðñêîãî Ôëîòà
 
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