F-X deal is back on. Brazil back in action

[colay]

While it appeared that Rafale and SH enjoyed the advantage of battle-proven aircraft, the Gripen is significantly cheaper to buy and operate over it's lifetime. SAAB is also reported to have offered the best deal in terms ToT and industrial offsets.

No doubt Dassault and Boeing considered carrier compatibility
an advantage. However, given that Brazil is placing a high priority on developing a robust aerospace industry, the Brazilian Government may also have looked at the future development of Sea Gripen in partnership with SAAB as an opportunity rather than a weakness. Sea Gripen should offer a lower cost yet capable ship-based strikefighter regardless of platform i.e. CATOBAR or STOBAR.

 

[RobWilliams]

Developing some kind of maritime aircraft would be the 'cherry on the cake' so to speak, Brazil's main aim is to develop the fast jet industry in Brazil as a whole initially based on land based aircraft.

It's an interesting situation to be developing, i'm still hugely sceptical that Brazil will even renew it's aircraft carrier. Getting the money up to buy 36 aircraft has been like getting blood from a stone, so how long will it take to get the money for a carrier (or 2) + escorts + support vessels up?

 

[King Wally]

Is it just me or does the unit cost for the Gripen seam high? They may have been able to pick up say 26 F-35A's for that kind of budget? These buys are always a little confusing for the man on the street like myself. I guess you have to keep in mind so many side elements and factors that come with this kind of package deal.

 

[colay]

Is it just me or does the unit cost for the Gripen seam high? They may have been able to pick up say 26 F-35A's for that kind of budget? These buys are always a little confusing for the man on the street like myself. I guess you have to keep in mind so many side elements and factors that come with this kind of package deal.

Another way to look at it, South Korea will pay $7.2Billion for 40 F-35s. Comparing apples and oranges without knowing details of individual offerings.

 

[koxinga]

Is it just me or does the unit cost for the Gripen seam high? They may have been able to pick up say 26 F-35A's for that kind of budget? These buys are always a little confusing for the man on the street like myself. I guess you have to keep in mind so many side elements and factors that come with this kind of package deal.

Reportedly due to the ToT component for Embraer.

 

[John Fedup]

Another way to look at it, South Korea will pay $7.2Billion for 40 F-35s. Comparing apples and oranges without knowing details of individual offerings.

Exactly right regardless of which fighter is selected. The Canadian and foreign media have reported numerous prices for various F-35 and F-18SH packages. What is in the package is rarely detailed. I am of the opinion the only way you see the correct number is on the invoice (or bank account audits).

 

[RobWilliams]

It's a total transfer of technology of the aircraft to Brazil (including the weapons control software), so it's not just a case of "we will take 36 examples please".

Contract most probably includes spares/maintenance/training packages for the type. Wouldn't be surprised if there was some weapons integration deals in there either, the FAB doesn't operate the likes of AMRAAM or AIM-9.

The variants of Gripen Brazil is interested in is the Gripen NG which the JAS-39E & JAS-39F are the production models of the NG but are single and twin seated respectively. The improvements from older models are a better engine (F414G), superior performance (payload, range, fuel) & an AESA radar.

 

[ADMk2]

Interesting decision but not surprising. What I'm interested in seeing is whether a lease of C/D Gripens happens in the meantime to replace the Mirage 2000 capability and provide a modern, advanced air policing capability for the Olympics / World Cup, plus initial training and conversion capability.

 

[John Fedup]

Interesting decision but not surprising. What I'm interested in seeing is whether a lease of C/D Gripens happens in the meantime to replace the Mirage 2000 capability and provide a modern, advanced air policing capability for the Olympics / World Cup, plus initial training and conversion capability.

Media reports I saw indicated C/D Gripens would be available and would be replaced by NGs if Brazil wanted this but this would be a supplemental deal. As for air policing of the Olympics, the longer endurance Embraer A-29s should be more than enough and would be less expensive to operate, an important consideration given the bloated cost of hosting the Olympics.

 

[StobieWan]

Is it just me or does the unit cost for the Gripen seam high? They may have been able to pick up say 26 F-35A's for that kind of budget? These buys are always a little confusing for the man on the street like myself. I guess you have to keep in mind so many side elements and factors that come with this kind of package deal.

It's a similar situation to the SuperHornet deal for Australia - that topped out near $3.2bn for 24 SH - but there were integration costs, spares, training package etc.

Allegedly SAAB had a 175% offset on offer so there's all sorts of stuff in there. It's a good bit of news for the UK due to the UK content in the Gripen.

WRT to the carrier version, Embraer are doing a significant upgrade to 12 of the 23 A4's so I'm guessing that the urgency to get the carrier component on board isn't high as those upgrades will keep them ticking over for some time (and the carrier has just been in for extensive maintenance as well.)

I gather the impression that budgetary issues for Brazil are considerable as even if a budget is assigned, the money may not actually be released - which makes planning an equipment buy very difficult.

 

[RobWilliams]

10 - 12 months expected to negotiate contract terms & deliveries will commence 48 months after the contract is signed. First deliveries expected in 2018

C/D model Gripens can by supplied by the Swedish Air Force to replace a number of Mirage 2000's due to be retired about now. Should the option be picked then these will be replaced by E/F models in the future.

One interesting comment made by the Brazilians is that they're open to partnerships with other companies WRT a future 5th generation fighter.

Gripen NG has 10 external hardpoints as current C/D models have 8. Can now accomodate larger drop tanks (450gal) than before as well as greater internal fuel capacity anyway (Saab claims the NG can fly 1,300km with 6 A2A missiles, have 30 minutes on station then RTB)

 

[RobWilliams]

Couple of interesting details about F-X2

Swedish Government Looks to Add Value to Gripen-E Sale Talks | Defense News | defensenews.com

Discussions include proposals which would make Brazil the primary producer of Gripen E/Fs for any potential contracts awarded in South America and Africa. The idea of leasing Gripen C/Ds to cover the Olympics is under consideration.

But the real nugget is that if this current contract is fulfilled on time & on budget, then Brazil is open to the possibility of purchasing another 100 examples of Gripen E/F aircraft.

"On time & on budget", time will tell I suppose.

 

[StobieWan]

I'm guessing the first orders will go with ex Swedish jets so they should hopefully be hot transfers, just clear out the meatballs and elk toys from the cockpit and chuck 'em the keys and a pine air freshener with the deal and they're done.

Getting that delivered on time should be simpler than new production? Fingers crossed, Saab have a long history of jet design and I'd like them to continue to succeed - better yet if they flog the UK designed Sea Gripen with the deal,

 

[RobWilliams]

Unclear if they'll be new builds (E/F) straight for the FAB or transferred from Swedish Air Force stocks.

Some of the airframes from this 36 will be manufactured in Brazil in a new plant in Sao Bernardo near Sao Paulo. So an undetermined number will be built in Sweden and it's still unclear about how indiginous the manufacturing will be, like how much of it will actually be built in Brazil as opposed to imported from the likes of Saab and assembled. Bits like the engine spring to mind.

Certainly makes the Sea Gripen only more attractive if they decided to make the Gripen the core of their air force inventory as opposed to a component of it.

 

[StobieWan]

It'll be interesting to see what happens and if the Swedish Gripens are just leases to cover new build or whatever.

Whatever else happens, it's got to be good news for Brasil as it's new(er) jets.

Fingers crossed Brasil hasn't been reading the Indian MoD procurement handbook and goes for a single type fleet.

 

[swerve]

If Brazil gets some C/D (or even A/B) to fill the gap left by the retiral of the Mirage 2000s, they'll come from Swedish AF stocks. There are supposed to be about 50 A/B stored, & maybe some spare C/D. A/B could be upgraded with new avionics, or rebuilt into C/D (though that would take a while) before transfer.

All E (& F, if that's built - should be easy enough, as the Gripen Demo is a two-seater) will be new build.

The new factory is supposed to make some airframe sections for all Gripen E, including the Swiss & Swedish ones.


SAAB's success rate with jet fighter development is astonishing. Nary a flop. The J-21 was, to be fair, not exactly great - but it was a hastily-cobbled-together conversion of a piston-engined design, begun in 1944 as an emergency measure. From then on, they've all been good, with no disastrous dead-ends. There were incomplete projects, but all on paper, with modest amounts spent.

 

[the concerned]

Hi I read on wiki that the Swedish airforce were looking to replace the sk-60 with the super tucano as part of the gripen deal.does anyone know anymore about this

 

[RobWilliams]

Can't think of anything, but had a quick look at the Wiki article and the Swedish news article reporting it did so in 2009 and even then it was worded as a proposal.

It's being kept on the DL if so.

 

[StobieWan]

If Brazil gets some C/D (or even A/B) to fill the gap left by the retiral of the Mirage 2000s, they'll come from Swedish AF stocks. There are supposed to be about 50 A/B stored, & maybe some spare C/D. A/B could be upgraded with new avionics, or rebuilt into C/D (though that would take a while) before transfer.

All E (& F, if that's built - should be easy enough, as the Gripen Demo is a two-seater) will be new build.

The new factory is supposed to make some airframe sections for all Gripen E, including the Swiss & Swedish ones.


SAAB's success rate with jet fighter development is astonishing. Nary a flop. The J-21 was, to be fair, not exactly great - but it was a hastily-cobbled-together conversion of a piston-engined design, begun in 1944, as an emergency measure. From then on, they've all been good, with no disastrous dead-ends. There were incomplete projects, but all on paper, with modest amounts spent.

I really envy 'em their success - they've done some pretty innovative work, picked the right components for a workable domestic build and they've delivered consistently good results. I look at them and wish we'd taken EAP straight to a working combat jet for the UK.

Best of luck to them with the Brasil deal, it might lead to some other stuff in South America or similar.

 

[ngatimozart]

I really envy 'em their success - they've done some pretty innovative work, picked the right components for a workable domestic build and they've delivered consistently good results. I look at them and wish we'd taken EAP straight to a working combat jet for the UK.

Best of luck to them with the Brasil deal, it might lead to some other stuff in South America or similar.

Yes good luck to them. I quite like the Gripen and think it an ideal aircraft for our lot if any of our pollies ever grew a set of large ones and had the intestinal fortitude to invest in an air combat force.