Euro-Fighter 2000
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excellent uni adsH. i'm hoping to go there to do a degree to. anyway BAE companies came to the uni last november and done a mini exibition there. i went and checked it out.
. they had engines aircraft and other aviation stuff there. and those models i'm talking about well they were cool man :eek anyway back to topic of the euro-fighter
was it the recruitment seminar in the Aston web building yeah, we had loads of bigg players ie companies at that Exhibition. Did BAE bring demonstration stuff, i was being too lazy that day i walk past the Hall but couldn't be bothered to go in you had to dress up Formally.P.A.F said:excellent uni adsH. i'm hoping to go there to do a degree to. anyway BAE companies came to the uni last november and done a mini exibition there. i went and checked it out.
anyway back to topic of the euro-fighter
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you didn't have to dress up formally.(well i went casually) :. anyway yeah you got that right. they where look for people who wish to do gap years at uni and work for them. i went with my brother who is a computer scientist just to see the place. those models just cought my eyes and i just spent most of my time looking at em whilst my bro was looking for a job :smokingc:
:. anyway yeah you got that right. they where look for people who wish to do gap years at uni and work for them. i went with my brother who is a computer scientist just to see the place. those models just cought my eyes and i just spent most of my time looking at em whilst my bro was looking for a job :smokingc:Can you tell me on what facts you base such a statement?
EF uses the CAPTOR-Radar. Its a mechanical pulse-Doppler-Radar. Because its mechanical some people claim its an inferior radar. While new radars are not mechanical moved anymore its capabilities are still up-to-date. It has an official range of about 185 km for figher sized AC and around 370 km for larger ones like commercial AC. It can detect & track up to 20 targets simultaniously and uses a special processing channel (next to detection and tracking) for ECM.
The CAPTOR is integral part of the EF sensor fusion system.
Of course the EF has afterburners. They are necessary to achieve the maximum speed of mach 2. However the EF is able to supercruise with mach 1.3 (officially rated at 1.2). This may change with future engine upgrades (possible for batch 3).
Cost per unit is a very problematic issue since it depends on what packages are included (service, training etc). I'd guess the pure fly-away-prize is around 60 million US-$.
Come on adsh, dont bash the russians that much!
I'd say their R&D is about as good as the western one. However while we have the money (at least to a certain degree) to realize our R&D, the russians in most cases have not! Yeah, the EF is superior to the Su-30, yet that doesnt mean the russians are not able from a scientific point of view to come up with something better. They surely are but with a lack of funding nothing will happen nevertheless.
Currently the russians have only one advantage over western counterparts in air-to-air-warfare and thats their missiles (I'm talking about existing, not upcoming ones).
Esp. the short range comes to my mind, so I'd think of the Vympel R-73 aka "AA-11 Archer" in its current versions. Its considered extremely dangerous because of its combination of high agility and the use of the helm-mounted display. The russians use that system quite some time now while western developments concentrated on BVR-capabilites. Back in 1991 the german luftwaffe tested the newly aquired NVA-Mig 29 equipped with that tech and the results where shocking.
That was partly the reason why Germany left the ASRAAM-project and started development of the IRIS-T on its own. The IRIS-T basically combines most of the features of ASRAAM with that of the R-73.
Not so long ago there was an exercise between german Mig 29 and US-F-16 and in close combat still the same problem was recognized, although not that extreme since the (quite old and now sold) Mig lacked little bit power to keep up with the Falcons. However imagine that missile on a current SU-30 or upgraded Mig 29 and the thread is imminent.
The new european and american developments seem to close the gap, esp. concerning the helm-mounted display. I'd say, the R-73 still has an edge in agility while seeker capabilities tend to fall back behind the new western products, but thats my personal opinion. Same problem here: Russia is lacking funds to develop and produce new-generation missiles while the west has recognized the problems.
That was partly the reason why Germany left the ASRAAM-project and started development of the IRIS-T on its own. The IRIS-T basically combines most of the features of ASRAAM with that of the R-73.
Not so long ago there was an exercise between german Mig 29 and US-F-16 and in close combat still the same problem was recognized, although not that extreme since the (quite old and now sold) Mig lacked little bit power to keep up with the Falcons. However imagine that missile on a current SU-30 or upgraded Mig 29 and the thread is imminent.
The new european and american developments seem to close the gap, esp. concerning the helm-mounted display. I'd say, the R-73 still has an edge in agility while seeker capabilities tend to fall back behind the new western products, but thats my personal opinion. Same problem here: Russia is lacking funds to develop and produce new-generation missiles while the west has recognized the problems.
turin what we here have is Academia+private sector research, and we have a general pool of R&D available. where we can gain access to R&D of allied nations, a project like EF2000 represents a better part of European technology (Except french ). JSf is another example. I really do have my doubts that the Russians can in-fact come up with something that would come close to the european-American tech since our R&D industry is growing tenfold faster. Our joint development programs are far more speedy and cheaper to run. The russians have developed some pritty amazing things in the past but that doesn't mean they can in the future since there economy is literally in ruins and there R&D happens to be expensive (Resource intensive).
For instance the JSF represent the best of everything that the allied nations have in terms of technology. JSF has literally got the best of the tech for the cheapest sum. i would say this is something that the Russians would not be able to achieve, unless they ally them selves up with technologically and monetarily ritch countries which have a strong culture of R&D.
For instance the JSF represent the best of everything that the allied nations have in terms of technology. JSF has literally got the best of the tech for the cheapest sum. i would say this is something that the Russians would not be able to achieve, unless they ally them selves up with technologically and monetarily ritch countries which have a strong culture of R&D.
Thanks Turin. Regarding the radar, you said it can track 20 targets simultaneaously, how many can it engage at the same time??turin said:Can you tell me on what facts you base such a statement?
EF uses the CAPTOR-Radar. Its a mechanical pulse-Doppler-Radar. Because its mechanical some people claim its an inferior radar. While new radars are not mechanical moved anymore its capabilities are still up-to-date. It has an official range of about 185 km for figher sized AC and around 370 km for larger ones like commercial AC. It can detect & track up to 20 targets simultaniously and uses a special processing channel (next to detection and tracking) for ECM.
The CAPTOR is integral part of the EF sensor fusion system.
Of course the EF has afterburners. They are necessary to achieve the maximum speed of mach 2. However the EF is able to supercruise with mach 1.3 (officially rated at 1.2). This may change with future engine upgrades (possible for batch 3).
Cost per unit is a very problematic issue since it depends on what packages are included (service, training etc). I'd guess the pure fly-away-prize is around 60 million US-$.
Come on adsh, dont bash the russians that much!
I'd say their R&D is about as good as the western one. However while we have the money (at least to a certain degree) to realize our R&D, the russians in most cases have not! Yeah, the EF is superior to the Su-30, yet that doesnt mean the russians are not able from a scientific point of view to come up with something better. They surely are but with a lack of funding nothing will happen nevertheless.
Currently the russians have only one advantage over western counterparts in air-to-air-warfare and thats their missiles (I'm talking about existing, not upcoming ones).
Officially six targets can be engaged at the same time, however inofficially it is said that engaging of at least eight targets is possible.
@adsH: I completely agree with you. Problem is that the Soviet Union does no longer exist, so large scale funding has ceased. If Russia would still have its old style budget, they would be able to field some impressive weaponry, however (fortunately) thats an academic issue now.
Then the radar of the MKI is better than the EF 2000.turin said:Officially six targets can be engaged at the same time, however inofficially it is said that engaging of at least eight targets is possible.
@adsH: I completely agree with you. Problem is that the Soviet Union does no longer exist, so large scale funding has ceased. If Russia would still have its old style budget, they would be able to field some impressive weaponry, however (fortunately) thats an academic issue now.
darklegent
New Member
The best I could put the Ef-2000 wud be a 4.5+ generation. The base Su-27 wud be a 4th gen and the Su-30Mki a 4.5+ generation. The difference between the two is that the Mki is flying today.... Its finally in the IAF and the Su-30mkk with the PLAAF. The Ef-2000 is still in the intial stage of deliveries. Plz check the delivery status in the link below. The production will continue till 2014.
http://www.eurofighter.com/Typhoon/Programme/
My main point that I am argueeing is that the Russians have a follow on project to counter the JSF called the Pak-fa (some consider it to be financed by the Indians and may be availible to the Chinese too) which wud be availible in fully tested pre-production models by 2009 which wub be a true 5th gen jet. How do we compare the EF-2000 to that?
What is the follow on project to the EF-2000 that the Europeans have up their sleves that wud compare to the 5th gen American & Russian jets ?
http://www.eurofighter.com/Typhoon/Programme/
My main point that I am argueeing is that the Russians have a follow on project to counter the JSF called the Pak-fa (some consider it to be financed by the Indians and may be availible to the Chinese too) which wud be availible in fully tested pre-production models by 2009 which wub be a true 5th gen jet. How do we compare the EF-2000 to that?
What is the follow on project to the EF-2000 that the Europeans have up their sleves that wud compare to the 5th gen American & Russian jets ?
What are the exact features of the MKI-radar?
Eurofigher initally was developed as air-superiority-fighter, hwever later the concpet was changed due to transnational demands. So the EF now is a multirole AC with strong emphasize on air superiority. There is a difference between the three batches. Batch 1 and 2 are meant for the AS-role while batch 3 is meant for the strike role.
Current procurement plans are as following:
UK 232
Germany 180
Spain 121
Italy 87
Austria 18
Greece "up to 80"
JSF aims for up to 3.000 AC however this number is highly debatable considering the final numbers of the last major AC procurements. UK wants up to 150 AC for RAF and RN. I dont know about other countries in europe, esp. since several of them still think about leaving the JSF-programme at all due to unsatisfying cooperation.
Please note that EF and JSF are comparable to a certain degree only, JSF was never intented to be a AS-fighter but a strike AC, while the EF has a much stronger emphasize on AS. Also when JSF finally enters the air forces you likely will not see the EF still using the capabilities it offers today. From the beginning EF was ment to be an evolving AC, largely due to the reason that not all its features could be financed from the start. So in 2010 EF very likely will either have a new radar called AMSAR (Airborne Multi-mode Solid-state Active-array Radar) that us MUCH more comparable to that of the F-22 or it will use the CAPTOR-E, an improvement of the current CAPTOR with the features of the AMSAR. The engine (currently rated at 60 kN dry, 90 kN AB) offers consideralbe growing potential, improvements for an output of 78 kN/117 kN already exist and are available for implementation with the 3rd batch. MTU and ITP are working on a thrust-vectoring system for use from 2010 however the current agility of the EF is more than sufficient for the next years in my opinion.
And my point is that the EF (as well as the F-22) is a flying real AC while the only thing I've seen of the PAKFA are two different looking sketches. No further data was released, there obviously exists no flying prototype (other than the JSF), no technical data, no nothing. The AC is ment to enter service around 2010, so is the JSF. However the one AC gives a quite good impression of what it is able to do, the other (PAKFA) does not. So I am going with a british saying: "They should put up or shut up!".
As for the MKI...well I really cant see where the MKI should be anywhere near the EF. Yes, its rated a "high end threat", as is every AC of the SU-27-family. But its big, easily detectable and in terms of agility my opinion is that the EF is absolutely superior (I've seen them both in flying display in Berlin a while ago and while this does not show much, advantages of the EF where obvious). A good radar alone cant save the MKI, even if it keps up with that of the EF (which I doubt as well unless I see some convincing details).
the JSF is one of the major project of Briton today, the JSF would have a BAE avionic Radars and EW systems, the VTOL STOL system was designed by BAE even the glass cockpit on the prototype is ours, (I can see the resemblance in the Video ), No doubt the Best wins the Project so its possible it would have martin baker in it too.