Croatian Military Modernisation

Totoro

New Member
Ragusian, can you give me the link to that expert's article? Or at least tell us his name and position in the navy? thanks. :)

Anyway, i sort of agree with Contedicavour on the future fleet list. One dozen combat ships altogether, same hull, same engines, same basic subsystems. 1500 tons and 70m sound a bit too much, though. 1000 ton/60 meters sound more right. Use a system silmilar to Danish Flex series of ships when designing them. Important thing here is to preserve the knowhow and technological base, so i agree with you it's very important for Cro to build those ships on its own.

Most of them would serve in the Coast guard, with one gun and basic provisions for a small helo (no hangar, of course) Helo fleet would be shared, so not every ship would always sail with its own helo.

I propose just a token number of one dozen to be equipped as true navy multipurpose ships. Ideally, just one, but perhaps as many as two would be needed. Their primary purpose would be to serve as training ships, where crews from other "ligther" ships would periodically serve on, getting a taste of operating complex systems.

Of course minehunters and landing ships would be needed too, 6, like you said, sounds like a decent number. Mini subs are okay and have their place, too, as long as they're more like big submersibles and less like midget subs. No need for something that can stay under water for more than several hours. They would to be used only for very exact missions - go here, lay a minefield, come back; or go there, drop a few frogmen, come back.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Why not just wait for second hand Stockholms and Goteborg light corvettes from Sweden then ? They are "the" super-FAC(M)s and are quite suited for semi-enclosed seas as the Adriatic.
If the Swedes provide those on the cheap it'll leave Croatia budget for the OPVHs and eventually the small SSKs you have in mind (even if on this item I don't really see much usefulness unless it's for supporting local industry).

cheers
 

Ragusian

New Member
Why not just wait for second hand Stockholms and Goteborg light corvettes from Sweden then ? They are "the" super-FAC(M)s and are quite suited for semi-enclosed seas as the Adriatic.
We already have FACms, so why should we go for the swedish ones, if there's a improved FACm design of our own ready for production?
Our navy was offered the two Gotheburgs, and as far as I know, they were rejected(although I think more because it would be expensive to operate 2 different types of FACms, not because our navy hinks they're not good).
In fact, although this was never officially confirmed, only rumoured, besides Gowind 200, the other foreign contestent was the Visby(though I'm not certain if they are for sale?). So obviously, judging by this, our navy has no plans for any further and future FACms.

Anyway, i sort of agree with Contedicavour on the future fleet list. One dozen combat ships altogether, same hull, same engines, same basic subsystems. 1500 tons and 70m sound a bit too much, though. 1000 ton/60 meters sound more right. Use a system silmilar to Danish Flex series of ships when designing them. Important thing here is to preserve the knowhow and technological base, so i agree with you it's very important for Cro to build those ships on its own.
its already decided, the corvettes are no less then 78 meters in length, and no less then 1000 tonns in displacement. Actually, I would like to see a slightly bigger design of about 1500 tonns to feature a hangar for the helo, if they mean to export the thing.

The combat modules are incorporated in the design.

I propose just a token number of one dozen to be equipped as true navy multipurpose ships. Ideally, just one, but perhaps as many as two would be needed. Their primary purpose would be to serve as training ships, where crews from other "ligther" ships would periodically serve on, getting a taste of operating complex systems.
A good idea, I like it.

Of course minehunters and landing ships would be needed too, 6, like you said, sounds like a decent number. Mini subs are okay and have their place, too, as long as they're more like big submersibles and less like midget subs. No need for something that can stay under water for more than several hours. They would to be used only for very exact missions - go here, lay a minefield, come back; or go there, drop a few frogmen, come back.
I just hope our MoD changes its mind and returnes submarines into the fleet.
Velebit is still usable, just needs new batteries and a good redit, and she would be perfect! A new submarine could be built to a new, improved design, in our own shipyard(s). Two should suffice completely.

And they are throwing it away!:mad:
 

Ragusian

New Member
Here's a nice close-up of the RTOP-12 Dmitar Zvonimir while it was moored in Dubrovnik. Notice the newly installed AK 630 gun on the platform aft. Soon all three of the FACms will receive a point defence missile system(likely Mistral)
 

Ragusian

New Member
Any news on the likely configuration of montenegro's Navy ?
What about the rumoured sale of the Konis to Egypt ?
Nothing is certain... I think they are going to keep one of the Kotors(34), and the other is currently for sale.

As to the Konis, the rumours are that Libya is interested in both 31 and 32, with intentions to use one operationally, and the other as a source for spare parts for its Koni fleet.

The rest of the fleet is being either scrapped, sold, or transferred to police duties
 

contedicavour

New Member
Ah yes I see what looks like a former Osa converted into police unit.
How sad to see the bunch of rusting ships moored altogether...
Thanks for the info on Libyan interest. Makes sense.
So I guess in the "all others" you mention I should include the remaining SSK ?
With that sub (Sava) gone, the Adriatic is submarine-free. The Italian and Greek navies hardly ever send subs up there.

cheers
 

Ragusian

New Member
So I guess in the "all others" you mention I should include the remaining SSK ?
Yes... I think Egypt is interested in those, too. I'll check to be sure.

With that sub (Sava) gone, the Adriatic is submarine-free. The Italian and Greek navies hardly ever send subs up there.
Greek? Did they ever at all deployed any submarines up here? I wasn't aware of that...

Well, it's submarine free untill this october, when the biggest NATO exercise of this year will take place, named Noble Midas '07. It will include aircraft carriers and their escorts, amphibious ships, submarines and aircrafts. Untill then, happy diving!:D
 

mic of orion

New Member
The only comment I'd make is that the priority for Croatia should be to patrol effectively the Adriatic sea and its very long coastline. That means as many OPVHs as possible with helos aboard. I'd also be surprised to see money invested in FFGs if that reduces funding for more apt OPVHs.
Ideally I'd see at least a dozen OPVHs by 2020 to cover the coastline appropriately vs the 4-6 planned so far.

cheers
yep I'd agree, at least 8 will be in service 4 Naval corvettes and 4 OPV say for coastal duties. lately there is more and more emphasis on multi-mission task for even the smallest of the warships. King class although perfect for littoral engagements in open watter it would suck major way, even pair of dolphins would be able to sunk one of King's, lol :D. Although when it comes to patrol/gun boats King class are hitting upper limit for the size (well super vista
) I think what Croatia needs is something that can have longer endurance, do long coastal patrols and so on. With drugs/contraband trafficking, illegal migrants and what not using Adriatic as a local transit point I see no other way but to use something fast, with helicopter preferably.

Veliki Ophodni Brod (Big Patrol Ship - lucid translation :eek:nfloorl: ) is what Croatia needs desperately, I'd love to see some gangsta coming to me, I'd shoot him down on a spot, lol, use American style, shoot first ask questions afterwards, lol :D.

I think 4 of these would do ok in interim period, Hrvatska Kreljevica class are to small (32m long, 180 tons, 30 knots) and to weak as an deterrent, Croatia needs something with the punch and speed.

Problem is, Helicopters, using Mill 17Si for ASW or even MR would be most stupid thing to do, most expensive as well, Croatia needs small, light fast helicopter, something in scale of Panther/Dauphine, AS562 to interdict and apprehend would be nasties and ensure only paid tourist visit Adriatic. :)
 

Ragusian

New Member
Problem is, Helicopters, using Mill 17Si for ASW or even MR would be most stupid thing to do, most expensive as well, Croatia needs small, light fast helicopter, something in scale of Panther/Dauphine, AS562 to interdict and apprehend would be nasties and ensure only paid tourist visit Adriati
The first Mi-171Sh is arriving very soon!!!:)

Meanwhile, the navy budget has been slightly increased and rebalanced.
A new naval base at Peljesac peninsula will be built in a couple of years.
 

mic of orion

New Member
The first Mi-171Sh is arriving very soon!!!:)

Meanwhile, the navy budget has been slightly increased and rebalanced.
A new naval base at Peljesac peninsula will be built in a couple of years.
U sure of that ??

I know Kraljvica, Zadar, Sibenik, Vis and Pula naval bases were handed over for civil use due to the scaling down.

It would be fun to have base at the tip of the peninsula, to piss of few Bosnians, lol, especially if that peljesac bridge gets to be built. :D

I am sure Bosnians will be ok with it.

One thing that is exciting procurement of new large support ships.
 
Last edited:

Ragusian

New Member
U sure of that ??

I know Kraljvica, Zadar, Sibenik, Vis and Pula naval bases were handed over for civil use due to the scaling down.

I would be fun to have base at the tip of the peninsula, to piss of few Bosnians, lol, especially if that peljesac bridge gets built lol.

It would be nice I am sure Bosnians will be ok with it.

One thing that is exciting procurement of new large support ships
100% sure. The base should be built around Doli, which is on the other side of the peninsula, nowhere near Bosnia.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The modernized Mi 17 do have some advantages vs lighter helos : autonomy and sheer firepower deployable. If you are a contraband aboard a fast speed boat you are more likely to be impressed by a Mi 17 with rockets and guns beneath the wings than by a Panther. Sure, most navalized helos carry ASMs but in most police work you can't just blow the suspect out of the water with an air to sea missile. Good heavy rocket fire is better to dissuade the rogue fellow on the boat to slow down and be boarded.

cheers
 

mic of orion

New Member
The modernized Mi 17 do have some advantages vs lighter helos : autonomy and sheer firepower deployable. If you are a contraband aboard a fast speed boat you are more likely to be impressed by a Mi 17 with rockets and guns beneath the wings than by a Panther. Sure, most navalized helos carry ASMs but in most police work you can't just blow the suspect out of the water with an air to sea missile. Good heavy rocket fire is better to dissuade the rogue fellow on the boat to slow down and be boarded.

cheers
Mil17 is massive thing, lol, it would blow speedboat just by hovering over it, lool,. :D, but seriously, naa small is beautiful and cheep to run, Mil17 costs a lot, especially if fuel is considered. I think 8-12 ASW/MR/SAR helicopters is what Croatia desperately needs, I think NH90's are really good, but dam expensive, so cheaper option is needed, I think AS 562 Dauphin fits the role perfectly, and only costs 8 million euros, well civilian version not sure how much military version would go for, say 10 million euro against 20 million for NH90 u get the point, at some point in future Croatia will get 10-12 NH90's (next decade) but for immediate needs I think AS562 are perfect choice.
 
Last edited:

Wagner243

New Member
things might change for our navy. On HRT on obnovu flote hrvatske ratne mornarice. They said that they will extend the corvettes to 120 meters and would maybe even build 5. As defence minister vukelic announced. :)

http://vijesti.hrt.hr/content/view/43013/10/

the link might not work, since they change the HRT sight. And some how their search engine toolbar doesnt work. Strange.
 
Top