China's War Chest

Rich

Member
No problem webmaster. But why I wonder did you allow the first two posts by these guys and only got around to warnings when it came to me posting.

What in hell does anything of what these two have to say have anything to do with naval matters?

This is actually an easy one for me because none of these two ever have anything to contribute to military discussion. T95 and Schumacher are going on ignore.

Why would he report bad posts when he's the one making them?
 

T-95

New Member
No problem webmaster. But why I wonder did you allow the first two posts by these guys and only got around to warnings when it came to me posting.

What in hell does anything of what these two have to say have anything to do with naval matters?

This is actually an easy one for me because none of these two ever have anything to contribute to military discussion. T95 and Schumacher are going on ignore.

Why would he report bad posts when he's the one making them?
i didn't report anything first off all. second of all your the one who started the US-China comparison.
 

rrrtx

New Member
Miserable human rights record?! Isn't that quite hypocritical? Haditha massacre, Abo Grabe , the 5 US soldiers that killed a 14 yr. old girl's whole family(including her 5 yr. old baby sister) torched their bodies gang reaped the girl multiple times and set her on fire, bombing a wedding party, reaping and sexually abusing prisoner and taking pictures,the Hamdania incident. Don't bother with all this "Americas the good guy" BS.

And China doesn't have a lot to lose and America shouldn't be actively pursuing bad relations with them especially at this time when they can just swoop in with their jet fighters and invade Taiwan. Not to mention China's economy is going to surpass the American economy in terms of purchase power parity within 2 yrs. time. and is expected to replace America as the world superpower.I think the US has more to gain in keeping good relations with China than China with the US.
Let's take this back to the beginning point of the discussion - China's financial state and the advisability of enlarging it's naval capabilities.

I would argue that to dramatically increase China's naval power beyond the basics of self defense wouldn't make sense at this point. There is no external threat that requires beefing up the navy (especially with aircraft carriers). The resources would be better used to address China's internal economic problems.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
China has enough problems managing its own transition from a rural based economy to an industrialised economic super-power without taking on the US in a copy-cat head to head pre-WWI Dreadnought style building race. The mass migration of poorly educated peasants to the urban areas and growing gap between rich and poor is going to keep the internal security (MSS) busy for many years to come. Beijing’s having a hard enough time as it is reigning in its petulant Southern children (Shenzhen & Guangzhou) from demanding more economic autonomy.

The armed forces will always be a tool for maintaining internal security and protecting the country's huge border. Any expansion in navel power will be primarily geared towards protecting China’s maritime trade routes, and at the end of the day, why not! It’s what we in the west have been doing for hundreds of years (Pax Britannica followed by Pax America).
 

jacklove

New Member
I am Chinese. hope China and US have good relationship.no war between China and US.
peaceful and develop,for the human's future.
 

Rich

Member
China has enough problems managing its own transition from a rural based economy to an industrialised economic super-power without taking on the US in a copy-cat head to head pre-WWI Dreadnought style building race. The mass migration of poorly educated peasants to the urban areas and growing gap between rich and poor is going to keep the internal security (MSS) busy for many years to come. Beijing’s having a hard enough time as it is reigning in its petulant Southern children (Shenzhen & Guangzhou) from demanding more economic autonomy.

The armed forces will always be a tool for maintaining internal security and protecting the country's huge border. Any expansion in navel power will be primarily geared towards protecting China’s maritime trade routes, and at the end of the day, why not! It’s what we in the west have been doing for hundreds of years (Pax Britannica followed by Pax America).
They dont need to take us on, certainly not on a "platform per platform basis". The Soviets never did either, and yet they were a legitimate threat to the USN.

The intent of the Chinese is to concentrate on building/acquiring the platforms and systems necessary to deny the USN access to the ocean routes and areas the Chinese consider vital.

Like the Soviets before them they are focused on AshMs and the platforms needed to launch them. Of note I would point to their purchase of 2 more Sovremenny's, their improved type 054a frigate "which is basically a small ship built around YJ-83's, their new deal for up to 50 SU-33s, type 52 DDGs, and a continued emphasis on quieter submarines.

The USN needs to be prepared for a whole shopping list of threats. The PLAN needs to focus on only one. This fact should not be over-looked and the Chinese should not be underestimated.
 

metro

New Member
Let's take this back to the beginning point of the discussion - China's financial state and the advisability of enlarging it's naval capabilities.

I would argue that to dramatically increase China's naval power beyond the basics of self defense wouldn't make sense at this point. There is no external threat that requires beefing up the navy (especially with aircraft carriers). The resources would be better used to address China's internal economic problems.
I agree, we (business) do a lot of trade w/China. China's biggest threat IMO, is not the #1 Navy, but internal. I was told that Guand Dong Province, is flooded, causing hudeds of millions of dollars in damaged and displaced people?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They dont need to take us on, certainly not on a "platform per platform basis". The Soviets never did either, and yet they were a legitimate threat to the USN.

The intent of the Chinese is to concentrate on building/acquiring the platforms and systems necessary to deny the USN access to the ocean routes and areas the Chinese consider vital.
my view is that all of their actions are a concatenation process of injecting pause, and thus dislocation of the executive will. they well know that in absolute terms they have no hope of fighting a real blue water navy on USN terms.

They have no capacity to reach out and project a competent fighting ability, they need to stay in range of land based air and GB support.

Their tier one sub force elements for example would be absolutey decimated within a brief period of time.

I don't think the PLAN are that stupid. They still don't have a meaningful capability irrespective of increased build rates, and irrespective of the increase in base technical competency. Having the widgets does not translate to competency at theatre sized prosecution of network fused warfare etc....

At a fleet management level they're absolutely green - and you can't fasttrack those fleet management competencies (eg in under 5 years)

They're slowballing the US and hoping to slip under the radar
 

metro

New Member
my view is that all of their actions are a concatenation process of injecting pause, and thus dislocation of the executive will. they well know that in absolute terms they have no hope of fighting a real blue water navy on USN terms.

They have no capacity to reach out and project a competent fighting ability, they need to stay in range of land based air and GB support.

Their tier one sub force elements for example would be absolutey decimated within a brief period of time.

I don't think the PLAN are that stupid. They still don't have a meaningful capability irrespective of increased build rates, and irrespective of the increase in base technical competency. Having the widgets does not translate to competency at theatre sized prosecution of network fused warfare etc....

At a fleet management level they're absolutely green - and you can't fasttrack those fleet management competencies (eg in under 5 years)

They're slowballing the US and hoping to slip under the radar
I agree, without force projection, how are you going to take your sind to war?
Buinding Nuclear Subs is great, are they going to launch a nuke? Otherwise their subs may trail our CBGs but if they "aren't detected," ad decide to launch (whatever) at a carrier, I think the US would make a point to china that losing their navy, wasn't worth it.

As I said, our family buisness (has grown beyond that) has done business with China for almost 50 yrs. There's a world of difference, in just the last decade, but China's population, at this time (IMO), isn't sustainable. We've done everything possible to try to figure out how they are "making money." Our conclusion, along with most others companies (i.e. Mostly Big Box Stores) is that they aren't.

While major new cities/old cities/hotels/airports are beautiful (for China to show to tourists), there are two Chna's: a very Wealthy China (Manufacturers who get huge gov't subsidies in one way or another, Gov't) and an increasingly disaffected portion of the public.
The sons of the owners of manufacturers we have worked with for a long while, have dream cars for each day of the week. It drops off from there.
This is not to say that there arent a lt of people who work their butts off to try living the "American Dream," and it's happened for some people who ave been long time friends. But each one of them is in competition with a few Billion others to attract "your" attention.

And in terms of manufacturing and engineering, this is where the largest time delay is. If we want a certain type of shovel (litterally), their engineers can't figure out how to make one of the same quality (given a sample and all specs). Usually they'll come here, try to understand what something is used for, and say "okay, no problem." Counter sample after counter sample is sent back and forth and it ends up with our company in China has to take care of things or we have to go there at least 4 times/yr.

I say this because, China is spending money it doesn't have. They have very intelligent people, but when it comes to grasping some concepts that seem like a no brainer, it can become very hard for them to pick up. They can copy somethin very well (the way it looks), it's quality, though it has tremendously increased, doesn't pass "QC" for what's needed here (i.e. what should take a week, can take a year).

They definitely have great minds (and tons of them) and a hard work ethic, but there's such a cultural difference that what they often think is right, is so wrong it's hard to explain.

I just don't see the Chinese being able to support the huge investment they're putting into their military (or the appearance of that). Aircraft carriers make no sense for them, especially making them as quick as possible with not much thought put into the future. The best thing many western countries have done, is not settle for something that's "Close," but putting emphasis on getting it right.
-I'll stop here.
 

Geddy

Member
OK TP-whatever....I live in China and I know as well as you do that the number one, above all else motivation of the country is to force the country of Taiwan to accept a communist take over. The military is totally geared to attack and subdue Taiwan and to make the US and the civilized world do nothing to stop it.

By the look of it I am not allowed to mention that China is interested in no ones "welfare" unless they are Chinese. Sudanese don't matter as long as oil is supplied. It will be interesting to see who ends us coming to the Olympics if you keep this up.

I will keep to the defence topic by saying that if the antics of the PLA soldiers at the barracks next to my appartment block is anything to go by, Taiwan has nothing to worry about!!
 

metro

New Member
OK TP-whatever....I live in China and I know as well as you do that the number one, above all else motivation of the country is to force the country of Taiwan to accept a communist take over. The military is totally geared to attack and subdue Taiwan and to make the US and the civilized world do nothing to stop it.

By the look of it I am not allowed to mention that China is interested in no ones "welfare" unless they are Chinese. Sudanese don't matter as long as oil is supplied. It will be interesting to see who ends us coming to the Olympics if you keep this up.

I will keep to the defence topic by saying that if the antics of the PLA soldiers at the barracks next to my appartment block is anything to go by, Taiwan has nothing to worry about!!
Geddy, I don't know the exact demographics, but it seems that most everyone we work with (usually factory owners in china and their top people), is Chinese (from the Mainland), and have their factories in China, but they really live in Taiwan.

I have no doubt China could take Taiwan. But why, kill the Chinese in Taiwan or see them move. How is an emty country in China's interest when so much commerse is done through Taiwan?
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I just don't see the Chinese being able to support the huge investment they're putting into their military (or the appearance of that). Aircraft carriers make no sense for them, especially making them as quick as possible with not much thought put into the future. The best thing many western countries have done, is not settle for something that's "Close," but putting emphasis on getting it right.
-I'll stop here.
Each country has a defense budget. They will purchase exactly the amount of hardware that budget will allow for. I'm not sure which specific weapon system you are talking about that they can't support.

As for the aircraft carrier part, they've put a lot of thought into it. It's something that they've studied for 20 years. I think you are letting your dealings with Chinese people in your own field block your view of how Chinese military is run.

OK TP-whatever....I
What is this reason of replying to me out of no where and then insulting my nickname?
 

joshoman

New Member
Theres a report i saw in a magazine not all that long ago, concerning the development of chinese anti-satilite technology.

The ilitary of most countries these days is almost totaly relient upon satilite communcation.

What threat could this now pose?

cheers,
josh
 

metro

New Member
Theres a report i saw in a magazine not all that long ago, concerning the development of chinese anti-satilite technology.

The ilitary of most countries these days is almost totaly relient upon satilite communcation.

What threat could this now pose?

cheers,
josh
It's the reason "nanosatellites" are being built and launched (a lot more inexpensive vs. expensive to try to shoot down--BTW, I think our shuttle eventures are done), as well as redundant ground based systems.

gf0012-aust, could probably answer this one completely.;)
 

metro

New Member
Each country has a defense budget. They will purchase exactly the amount of hardware that budget will allow for. I'm not sure which specific weapon system you are talking about that they can't support.

As for the aircraft carrier part, they've put a lot of thought into it. It's something that they've studied for 20 years. I think you are letting your dealings with Chinese people in your own field block your view of how Chinese military is run.
You're right, I'm not telling the Chinese where to put defense $$$, I don't think Chna would take my advice anyway;)

I just think the world has become very "fluid" lately and sinse I've been to China several times, I know that in many areas there are internal issues, (aside from business dealings). For example, the Four Gourge Dam is really nice and quite a project. However, millions of people, some living in ancient cities, were displaced and a large percentage lost most everything. What I was trying to get accross is sort of like what Sun Tzu said, "An army can't fight on an empty belly." If the military is the only institution being "taken care of," those who are left out will form their own military.

If that is what happens, a fleet of Carriers, to project power against (?), doesn't make sense in my mind... especially, if they don't have a place to give them a "Welcome, Homecoming."

But again, I don't live in China and I'm not Chinese, so it's just an outside opinion. I saw Russia go crazy with their mlitary spending (which turned out that they weren't spending nearly what anyone thought), and their people have suffered since. China's populatin is significantly larger than Russia's, I would just hope the Chinese people are taken care of before expensive arms that might not be needed.

JMO
Peace
 

Schumacher

New Member
............
But again, I don't live in China and I'm not Chinese, so it's just an outside opinion. I saw Russia go crazy with their mlitary spending (which turned out that they weren't spending nearly what anyone thought), and their people have suffered since. China's populatin is significantly larger than Russia's, I would just hope the Chinese people are taken care of before expensive arms that might not be needed.

JMO
Peace
I think Castro said similar things abt how UK can spend her Astutes funds better somewhere else. Unlike USSR, China's defence budget is now well funded by the economy.
However, I do agree China faces great challenges in poverty but these are to be solved thru her economic & political policies. Throwing every single cents of her defence budget at the problem would be a drop in the ocean & won't solve anything.
 

metro

New Member
I think Castro said similar things abt how UK can spend her Astutes funds better somewhere else.
Well the people of the UK can buy Cuban Cigars (We can't), so I'd have to go with Castro on this one;)

[Just some true comedy from my youth] I live write accross the boarder from Canada, and every store says "Cuban Cigars." When I was younger we used to go over there all the time, until we were coming back, obviously got stopped by Customs. "Do you guys have anything you shouldn't have in the car"? I said, "No." Everyone followed and said the same. They searched my car with 5 people for 30minutes (like i took the gas tank out and resplaced it with drugs or something:rolleyes: that was the guy they let through behind me;). But they never check you body, just the car, and after a long search a female came over from passenger seat of my car and was holding a cigar, "so what's this." I'm tinking, "s***, who didn't stick the cigar in their pocket." My Cuban housemate! He told the woman it was his. She said, "you know Cuban Cigars aren't allowed to be brought accross boarder"!? My friend said, "Yeah, I know! What's your problem than with it than"? The Woman looked shocked as did we. Then he said, "Look mam, I'm Cuban. I don't smoke anything (he really doesn't), but this is one of the worst fakes I've ever seen in my life. I just bought that BS as a gift for one of our friends" She started laughing like crazy and said, "I know! I was going to tell you how you wasted your money, but I'm glad I don't have to go through that speech. But I stiil have to keep it because of it's labling and only God knows what's really in there." So we get back in the car, toss three cigrs out the window, and beat the crap out of the kid.

Unlike USSR, China's defence budget is now well funded by the economy.
However, I do agree China faces great challenges in poverty but these are to be solved thru her economic & political policies.
Well, I'm just calling it like I see it. I don't want to get into the detais of what goes on or playing with money, but I'd really like to see how books are kept.

The problem with the economic and political policies is that they're neither here, nor there. It's not the USSR/Russia or the US/UK. It's more like, making things up as you go (JMO).

Throwing every single cents of her defence budget at the problem would be a drop in the ocean & won't solve anything.
That's sort of what I am saying. Unless China plans on building a large military for poulation control, what's the point... especially of Carriers?:rolleyes:
 

Schumacher

New Member
Well the people of the UK can buy Cuban Cigars (We can't), so I'd have to go with Castro on this one;)
In fact, the argument that money can be better spent elsewhere in the economy can be used on the US & many others as well. :)

Well, I'm just calling it like I see it. I don't want to get into the detais of what goes on or playing with money, but I'd really like to see how books are kept.
........
That's sort of what I am saying. Unless China plans on building a large military for poulation control, what's the point... especially of Carriers?:rolleyes:
There many sources to get a sense of the state of the PRC economy, the numbers, money etc. The article at the start of this thread provides a good picture of the 'money' relative to what she spends on defence.
I think the defence spending is very modest in terms of the size of the economy & definitely have not reached the point to be worried abt overspending at the expense of other social issues.
Take the instances of nukes & carrier. They only have a minimal nuke deterrence & the former USSR carrier has been sitting there for ages & we're looking at PLAN carrier by 2020, definitely no earlier than 2015.
Very measured, gradual pace IMO.
 

metro

New Member
In fact, the argument that money can be better spent elsewhere in the economy can be used on the US & many others as well. :)
It's very true, especially "today" ($90,000 in a congressman's freezer??). We have "ear marks" left and right on every bill brought to the floor. You couldn't pass a "Right to Breathe" Bill, without 100 people in congress wanting $30,000,000 for their home town High School to get a 100,000 person stadium... that's just one person, and far from the most insane.

In general, I agree. But at the hieght of our "hyper-powerness";) (1990's) we had a good... almost everything, and a surpluss. However, that aura of invinceabilty lead to tax hikes (not good) and cutting the military budget to it's lowest point (%/GDP) since before WWII. We also cut the people in the military by at least a third. I'm not a history freak, but I do believe that same kind of thing was the beginning of the end for some of the empires we ratlle off today. I'm saying this knowing we pretty much had most of our internal affairs in a satisfiable place.

Today, half the country, with money, wants no part in funding the troops or or youth.


There many sources to get a sense of the state of the PRC economy, the numbers, money etc. The article at the start of this thread provides a good picture of the 'money' relative to what she spends on defence.
I think the defence spending is very modest in terms of the size of the economy & definitely have not reached the point to be worried abt overspending at the expense of other social issues.
Take the instances of nukes & carrier. They only have a minimal nuke deterrence & the former USSR carrier has been sitting there for ages & we're looking at PLAN carrier by 2020, definitely no earlier than 2015.
Very measured, gradual pace IMO.
I understand, I'm just more about the most effecient and practicle ways to achieve something 'necessary" rather than expensive toys. I'll settle for a mouse trap instead of a sniper's rifile.

Again, I don't need to tell the Cineese what to buy, they've been around for a while.
 

f-22fan12

New Member
China has an ability to buy anything it wants right now. 1.2 TRILLION$ is no joke. And there will be many more years when China will add Hundreds of BILLIONS of $ to their war chest. In 20 years they will probobly have enough money to outspend NATO. But they do not need to spend and probobly will not spend 1 trillion or even 300 billion on defence now. All they need to do is defend themselves, be able to destroy Taiwan, and be an Asian Superpower.
 
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