Anzac Ship upgrades for Australia

Sea Toby

New Member
It appears the New Zealand government and defence forces feel that adding Harpoons to the Anzacs class frigates is an expense that can be delayed until they face a potential war. The Seasprites carry the Maverick air to surface missiles, although shorter in range than the Harpoon, they can strike ships at further distances due to the flight range of the Seasprite. As has been noted before, weight and space has been reserved for the Harpoons.

Of course, since funding Harpoons isn't a very large investment, others may make the claim that New Zealand, once again, isn't fully equipmenting its armed forces, forcing others to pick up the slack.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Todjaeger said:
Just confirmed, it was HMAS Anzac. I assume (hope, really) that the Harpoon will be in-service on all vessels before they start refits for CEAFAR. Is there any word on the commissioning date for Perth, and if she will be fitted with Harpoon then? Once CEAFAR is fitted, particularly if a 2nd 8-cell Mk 41 VLS is added as well, the Anzacs will quite formidable I think.
Pretty sure Perth was commissioned in August 26th, HMAS Perth doesn't even have ESSM for some reason understand the thinking for that.
And yeah once the full kit is on the Anzacs will be a fine surface vessel indeed.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Sea Toby said:
It appears the New Zealand government and defence forces feel that adding Harpoons to the Anzacs class frigates is an expense that can be delayed until they face a potential war. The Seasprites carry the Maverick air to surface missiles, although shorter in range than the Harpoon, they can strike ships at further distances due to the flight range of the Seasprite. As has been noted before, weight and space has been reserved for the Harpoons..
Unfortunately if the SeaSprites target has anything more than short-range SAM then it's going to be toasted well before it get's in range to fire the Maverick. I.e. the Seasprite can only go for small or lightly-armed surface targets!

And as for getting the Harps' just before you need them is dodgy - imagine the enemy has just been sighted - you have seconds to unleash the Harpoon before they do - and the weapons operator comes across comms - "has anyone seen the instruction manual?"

Sea Toby said:
Of course, since funding Harpoons isn't a very large investment, others may make the claim that New Zealand, once again, isn't fully equipmenting its armed forces, forcing others to pick up the slack.
Others can claim just that - c'os that's exactly what we (NZ) are doing - 'why' is the question! When the 2 ANZAC's were ordered the govt of the day (Labour) did NOT want to buy these babies - I understand only intense lobbying (pressure!?!) from Aussie swung-it.

There was widespread opposition within NZ to buying them - which the opposition parties of course whipped up to their own crude advantage! Result was that the Govt had to placate opposition & greens etc by stating they were being purchased without 'the full range of expensive weapons systems' to reduce cost. In fact the Govt at the time starting talking about defensive vs offensive weapons - trying to justify what was purchased. This unfortunately struck a chord with the largely ignorant (on Defence matters) NZ public & it seems to have remained to this day! That's why NZ has large surpluses and yet still does little to seriously 'up-arm' it's defence forces.

It also explains why the significant expenditure happening at the moment is barely raising any opposition at all - it's seen as for 'peaceful' purposes. Mind you I also think NZer's are starting to realise that we even have a Defence force. The NZDF are starting to finally get a high profile in this country - that's always been a barrier in the past to expenditure.

One would assume the Navy would love the Harpoon but have most likely realised it's pointless asking - after years of being beating into submission by various Govts not prepared to risk 'greenish' votes by ordering 'real' weapons.

The recent Javelin purchases have been strongly pushed as 'defensive weapons' - the Harpoon is arguably the same - but it's harder to sell to the public as such!

Longer term I'm confident there will be a change in thinking from NZ - but it will require a change in govt.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Yes, while the Greens did not wish to order the Anzac frigates, the Labour prime minister of that time did wish to order new frigates to replace ageing Leander class frigates. While New Zealand could have purchased cheaper smaller frigates from the United Kingdom or elsewhere with the same weaponry, the smaller frigates would not have had the range of the Anzacs. Fortunately, New Zealand was able to receive enough offsets with the Anzac shipbuilding program, the balance of payments were equal. A very significant development for both nations which the British could not match.

However, in the very near future, the anti-submarine torpedoes and NATO Seasparrow anti-air missiles are reaching the end of their shelf life. New Zealand will have no choice but to upgrade these weapons systems.

I agree, a third frigate is necessary to sustain a deployed frigate commitment beyond six months at all times. While having two frigates means one will be available for a sudden deployment, there is no guarantee that New Zealand can continue to sustain a deployment for a long period of time.

I also agree Harpoon missiles are a defensive weapon. While the current government has to please the Greens to maintain office, I cannot see a National government ever linked with the Greens. There is a better chance that in the future a National government may acquire Harpoons before purchasing a third frigate.

Australia is New Zealand's Dutch uncle, and Australia presently will never allow New Zealand to disband entirely its frigate force. If New Zealand couldn't send a frigate when Australia called, I doubt whether Australia would maintain its ANZAC relationship. It was foolish for New Zealand to severe its ANZUS ties with the United States, it would be a disaster if New Zealand severed its ties with Australia.
 
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tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Gibbo said:
Unfortunately if the SeaSprites target has anything more than short-range SAM then it's going to be toasted well before it get's in range to fire the Maverick. I.e. the Seasprite can only go for small or lightly-armed surface targets!
I think that pretty much applies to most helicopter launched missiles in comparable weigh class. (not counting Kormoran, early Exocet, Sea Eagle etc). Penguin being the exception.

Maverick range 27 km (high altitude launch) 13 km (low altitude launch)

By comparison:

Sea Killer: 25km (SH 3)
AS15TT: 15+km (AS.565 Panther, AS.532 U2 Cougar)
Sea Skua : 20-25 km (on Sea Lynx)
Penguin: 35+ (mk 2) 55+ (mk 3) (on SH 60)
 

contedicavour

New Member
tatra said:
I think that pretty much applies to most helicopter launched missiles in comparable weigh class. (not counting Kormoran, early Exocet, Sea Eagle etc). Penguin being the exception.

Maverick range 27 km (high altitude launch) 13 km (low altitude launch)

By comparison:

Sea Killer: 25km (SH 3)
AS15TT: 15+km (AS.565 Panther, AS.532 U2 Cougar)
Sea Skua : 20-25 km (on Sea Lynx)
Penguin: 35+ (mk 2) 55+ (mk 3) (on SH 60)
I'd just add the Marte Mk2 with 30+ km range. If I recall correctly the MB339CD that flew with the NZ air force did have Marte missiles (at least I saw them on NZ MB-339CD at Bourget about a decade ago).

cheers
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
contedicavour said:
I'd just add the Marte Mk2 with 30+ km range. If I recall correctly the MB339CD that flew with the NZ air force did have Marte missiles (at least I saw them on NZ MB-339CD at Bourget about a decade ago).

cheers
Maybe a mock up but the MB339s in the RNZAF (or any other aircraft) never had the Marte Mk2, the only ASMs the RNZAF used were Mavs.
 

Norm

Member
Update on the NZ ANZAC Frigates Upgrade; Phil Goff (see beehive.govt.nz select defence portfolio then look for defence Priorities 2007, plus some press reporting can be found) at the Defence Industry Association's annual forum he gave a third update to the DLTDP.The 2 ANZAC Frigates will have $NZ400-$NZ500 Million upgrade of their close-in protection systems(against fast inshore attack boats,anti-ship missles and attack aircraft).That upgrade would initially see the weapons systems improved (urgency at last?), with the full scope of further work to be determined (radar upgrades etc I assume.).The Frigates would also receive a refit $50-$60m to the engines,turbines,ventilation,air conditioning systems and other systems.
 

NZLAV

New Member
What about ESSM and Harpoon II? I think they definately need it asap as the RNZN frigates are not ready for a combat environment as they are armed.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I believe the $500-600 million self defence upgrade consists of ESSMs along with an updated CIWS. CIWS don't cost that much, but ESSMs do. Their frigates are also approaching a mid-life refit, where engineering items need refurbishment or replacements. The LTDP reveals the upcoming expense. They were both built before 2000, and a mid-life refit should be expected before 2015.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I believe the $500-600 million self defence upgrade consists of ESSMs along with an updated CIWS. CIWS don't cost that much, but ESSMs do. Their frigates are also approaching a mid-life refit, where engineering items need refurbishment or replacements. The LTDP reveals the upcoming expense. They were both built before 2000, and a mid-life refit should be expected before 2015.
How much Harpoon integration could possibly cost ? In Italy adding Teseo Mk2 costs "only" 20 million euro per ship (if the combat system has already the "fitted for but not with" configuration), definitively worth it in an update costing several hunded millions dollars !

cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Not much more, for two frigates I would say less than 20 million, 10 million for each frigate. Unfortunately this government does not choose to buy harpoons, another government may feel otherwise. Keep in mind this government does not wish to buy replacement torpedoes until long after their shelf life is over.

Unlike frigates, armored vehicles, and aircraft, harpoons can be bought from the US FMS and be delivered within a year. Obviously, the New Zealand government feels that they will have adequate warning of a potential agressor long before they need to buy more ordnance, which harpoons are. In wars, budgets are tossed aside. Its the same with gearing up for a war.
 

Norm

Member
Now I've had time to study the Update document , the block 1B upgrade to the 2 Phalanx CIWS is ASAP. Cost $NZ20-$25m.Seem's high working the numbers for 16 Block 1B Kits for the UK navy costed out at approx $nZ 5.60m each.($us57m for 16 1B kits, Defence industry Daily reported), possibly that was only the Kit's themselves and not fitting. Not sure how much a brand spanking new Phalanx would cost.Also in NZDF Capital spend 06/07 was $NZ4m for "Frigate Short-Range Self protection Capability" enough for 4 25mm MK38 style gun systems ?.

The major spend timing is still showing as commencing 2010 so my earlier hope for urgency at last is answered in the negative I fear.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Now I've had time to study the Update document , the block 1B upgrade to the 2 Phalanx CIWS is ASAP. Cost $NZ20-$25m.Seem's high working the numbers for 16 Block 1B Kits for the UK navy costed out at approx $nZ 5.60m each.($us57m for 16 1B kits, Defence industry Daily reported), possibly that was only the Kit's themselves and not fitting. Not sure how much a brand spanking new Phalanx would cost.Also in NZDF Capital spend 06/07 was $NZ4m for "Frigate Short-Range Self protection Capability" enough for 4 25mm MK38 style gun systems ?.

The major spend timing is still showing as commencing 2010 so my earlier hope for urgency at last is answered in the negative I fear.
OK so yes on Phalanx upgrade, no on Harpoon, what about ESSM ?
I though my country's government was among the worst serial defence budget cutters but I'm realizing nobody beats the NZ at that ;)

cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
As I mentioned before, the bulk of the $500 million New Zealand will be spending is for ESSMs, a CIWS upgrade doesn't cost that much. While the Seasparrows have shelf-life left, they won't for long. New Zealand will have to upgrade eventually, the US Navy has or will soon stop supporting Seasparrows. Considering the number of nations upgrading to ESSMs, the cheapest solution would be to follow the pack. That's why the ESSM upgrade is on the LTDP.

Again, I'm sure New Zealand would arm their frigates with harpoons when any nearby threatening nation does so. Unfortunately, no nation has threatened New Zealand, much less any of their neighboring island nations have armed their patrol boats with harpoons.

Unlike Italy, for example, New Zealand does not see the need to rush into arming their frigates with harpoons.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
As I mentioned before, the bulk of the $500 million New Zealand will be spending is for ESSMs, a CIWS upgrade doesn't cost that much. While the Seasparrows have shelf-life left, they won't for long. New Zealand will have to upgrade eventually, the US Navy has or will soon stop supporting Seasparrows. Considering the number of nations upgrading to ESSMs, the cheapest solution would be to follow the pack. That's why the ESSM upgrade is on the LTDP.

Again, I'm sure New Zealand would arm their frigates with harpoons when any nearby threatening nation does so. Unfortunately, no nation has threatened New Zealand, much less any of their neighboring island nations have armed their patrol boats with harpoons.

Unlike Italy, for example, New Zealand does not see the need to rush into arming their frigates with harpoons.
Ok, fair enough, their choice.
Though when one of the 2 Anzacs is sailing in the Persian Gulf I guess their captains would feel much better if they had a Harpoon to use against potential attacks by Iranian Navy FACs.

cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I'm sure they would, but I doubt the New Zealand government would classify Iran currently as an threatening aggressor, much less a neighboring nation. New Zealand's frigates do have defensive weapons systems against SSMs, their Seasparrows, CIWS, electronic countermeasures, and the Maverick equipped Seasprites. Plus, a deployed NZ frigate would be in company with other allied warships nearby with similar defensive weapons systems.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #59
A question occurred to me today while at work. Once the CEA-FAR phased radar arrays start being fitted to the RAN Anzacs in 2009, does anyone know what radar, if any, the CEA-FAR array would replace?

Currently, the Anzacs use the following (AFAIK):
Air search: Raytheon SPS-49(V)8 ANZ; C/D-band
Air/surface search: SaabTech 9LV 453 TIR (Ericsson Tx/Rx); G-band
Navigation: Atlas Elektronik 9600 ARPA; I-band
Fire Control: SaabTech 9LV 453; J-band

The CEA-FAR 3D fixed active phased array radar operates in the E/F-bands.

And slightly off topic. Does anyone know what radar arrays the refitted Adelaide class FFGs will use?

-Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
A question occurred to me today while at work. Once the CEA-FAR phased radar arrays start being fitted to the RAN Anzacs in 2009, does anyone know what radar, if any, the CEA-FAR array would replace?

Currently, the Anzacs use the following (AFAIK):
Air search: Raytheon SPS-49(V)8 ANZ; C/D-band
Air/surface search: SaabTech 9LV 453 TIR (Ericsson Tx/Rx); G-band
Navigation: Atlas Elektronik 9600 ARPA; I-band
Fire Control: SaabTech 9LV 453; J-band

The CEA-FAR 3D fixed active phased array radar operates in the E/F-bands.

And slightly off topic. Does anyone know what radar arrays the refitted Adelaide class FFGs will use?

-Cheers
The CEA-FAR radar system will replace the SPS-49 and 9LV 453 TIR radars.

The CEA-MOUNT continuous wave illuminators will replace the SaabTech J-band fire control radars.

The FFG's are using an updated version of the same radar and fire control system (Mk 92?) they use now.

Cheers.

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