F-35 Lightning II

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XaNDeR

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I stumbled accros this article , thought it might be interesting for someone



Beesley has an extensive flight test résumé that begins with graduation from the US Air Force Test Pilot School in 1979. After working on several classified programs, he became one of the first USAF pilots to fly the F-117. When he left the Air Force in 1986 to join General Dynamics in Fort Worth, Texas, he initially flew developmental flight tests for an innovative night attack system for the F-16 called Falcon Eye. This program was one of the first to use helmet-mounted displays, or HMDs, and head-steered infrared devices on a tactical aircraft.

In 1990, Beesley became a project test pilot on the YF-22 during the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition. He was principally involved with evaluating and demonstrating the flying qualities of the YF-22. Many of these flights demonstrated the tremendous high angle of attack capabilities of the aircraft. Longtime Code One readers may recall his article on flight testing the YF-22, "Report From the Future," in 1991.

After the US Air Force selected the F-22 as the winner of the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition, Beesley became the Fort Worth project pilot for the F-22 program. He was the second pilot to fly the Raptor and one of the lead pilots in envelope expansion flights. Over his career, he has accumulated more than 5,000 hours of flight time in more than forty-five different types of aircraft.

Beesley became chief test pilot for the F-35 program in 2002. He will be in charge of flight testing all three variants to be produced: the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing, or CTOL, variant; the F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing, or STOVL, variant; and the F-35C carrier variant, or CV. Code One editor Eric Hehs interviewed him for his impressions of flying the first F-35 and for his perspective on flight testing this and subsequent Lightning II fighters.

What is your strongest memory from the first flight of the F-35?

The thrust impressed me most. The first flight profile called for the F-35 to immediately go to 15,000 feet. I had to keep the speed at 225 knots during the climb since I had to keep the gear down, which limited the maximum speed.

I used nose attitude instead of modulating engine thrust to control airspeed during the climb to 15,000 feet. In other words, I had to raise the nose to slow down the airplane. I took off and started pulling back on the stick. I had to keep pulling back to stop from accelerating over the 225-knot limit. So I reached a rather steep angle, about twenty-five degrees of pitch. The steep angle, witnessed by the crowds on the ground, highlighted the raw power I was experiencing in the cockpit. The thrust surprised me. Not in the sense of "Gee, how am I going to handle all of this power?" But more like, "Wow, this is more than I expected."

What was your overall impression of the airplane after that flight?

Overall, I was impressed by how well the entire first flight came together. I started the airplane, ran through all of our ground checks, taxied out to the end of the runway, and took off. The test team told me I taxied out to the end of the runway much faster than I did for any of the taxi tests. But I was ready to go and so was the airplane.

I was also pleased with how smoothly the airplane went through all the ground checks and how smoothly the airplane flew. As an example, the flap schedules on the original F-22 shook the Raptor at speeds above 200 knots. This objectionable buffet was addressed right away through a software change. Paul Metz [first pilot to fly the F-22] and I are the only two pilots who ever experienced that buffeting. I thought that I might experience some sort of buffeting with the first F-35, but I didn't.

We learned a lot from the F-22. Our engineers deserve a lot of credit. In fact, many of those who completed the checkout and testing of similar systems on the F-22 Raptor are performing the same work on the F-35. To name a few prominent examples: Kevin McTeague works on electrical systems; John Magbuhat works on flight controls; Paul Thoennes works on hydraulics; and Roy Schoberle from Pratt & Whitney works on the F135 engine. Many others with similar experience did the design integration work over the last several years. We also have some seasoned veterans involved in flight testing the new airplanes, which includes Mary Beth O'Loughlin as the test conductor for the first flight. We have a great team.

How has your impression of the F-35 changed in subsequent flights?

I continue to be impressed with the performance of the aircraft. The F-16s flying chase don't have near the fuel capacity or payload capability as the F-35. The Lightning II does very well in comparison. For example, the F-35 often forces the chase aircraft into afterburner when it is in military power.

The airplane's handling qualities continue to be very good throughout the flight envelope. When I raise the landing gear, the airplane flies very smoothly. The landing gear is sequenced, which is unique for a fighter. The nose gear comes up first, then the main gear follows. The gears drop down in reverse order. Another strong impression is that the airplane wants to fly a lot faster than we are allowed to fly at this point in the flight test program. Most of the time we fly at about thirty to forty percent of available thrust. This airplane can go out to high subsonic speeds very easily without using afterburner.

Describe the basic progression of the first flight tests.

On the first flight takeoff, we received an air data degrade caution message. It indicated a mismatch in the lower-level comparison in the air data system, specifically with angle of attack. However, we had no loss of capability. Simply put, readings from the right and left air data probes need to agree within a certain tolerance, and they didn't on the first flight.

Because the air data system is redundant, we were able to fly on the left probe after the right one was turned off. The caution message cut the flight short, but we still managed to perform some of the planned maneuver blocks, which included throttle transients and one-half stick and pedal inputs. The handling qualities in these maneuvers were excellent with a notably smoother response and a better roll rate than I expected.

The greatest accomplishment of the first flight was the performance of the subsystems. The integrated power package, electrical, electro-hydrostatic actuators, flight control computers, and other subsystems worked without a problem for the entire flight. The performance of these systems is a great testimony to the team that brought the F-35 to first flight. After the faulty probe was replaced, we performed an additional 110-knot taxi test on 4 January to calibrate the new probe. We gathered additional air data on subsequent flights during January to further calibrate the air data system.

On Flight 2, we cycled the landing gear and then flew formation for the first time with the gear up. On Flight 3, we performed the first military power takeoff. On Flight 4, we performed the first low-altitude maneuvering. On Flight 5, we performed the first afterburner engine transient as well as performing other engine transient testing. On Flight 6, we conducted a fuel dump test. This test was conducted early in the flight test program to gather real-world data to inform design decisions on the fuel dump mechanization for the carrier variant, or F-35C. We performed higher angle of attack maneuvers on Flight 6 as well.

On Flight 7, we evaluated the speed brake operation. The F-35, like the F-22, doesn't have a dedicated speed brake like most previous fighters. Instead, it decelerates through the flight control software by deflecting control surfaces in the same manner as the Raptor. We use the leading-edge flaps as well as the trailing-edge flaps and the rudders to slow the airplane. Unlike the F-22, the F-35A and F-35B have no ailerons. That explains why it uses a combination of leading- and trailing-edge flaps and rudders to slow down. I found that the buffet levels were very low, essentially the same as buffet levels of the F-16 with the speed brake in operation. Deceleration rates in the F-35 are similar to the
F-16 as well, which is a design goal.

On Flight 8, we flew the software fix for the air data system issues we saw on the first flight. The new software allowed me to use full lateral stick rolling maneuvers. Handling qualities during these rolls were outstanding with roll rates matching predictions. We had to cut this flight short because our chase aircraft had a mechanical problem.

On Flight 9, we performed the first afterburner takeoff. Flight 9 was also our longest flight to that point, 1.5 hours. We took off with 3,500 pounds short of a full fuel load and landed with about 4,000 pounds of fuel remaining. So we shorted ourselves more fuel than the entire internal fuel capacity of an F-16 and still flew for 1.5 hours without aerial refueling. During Flight 9, we also flew close formations, power approaches, and maneuver blocks to sixteen-degrees angle of attack at 20,000 feet.

On Flight 10, we flew with the HMD for the first time. The mission included full-stick 360-degree rolls, snap engine transients in afterburner, and close formation flying. We also landed in fifteen-knot crosswinds for the first time. Flight 11 involved several lower altitude maneuver blocks as well as maneuvering with the speed brake. Jeff Knowles, the second pilot to fly the F-35, completed his first flight on Flight 12. I took the aircraft to 30,000 feet on Flight 13, performed a touch-and-go landing, completed maneuvers to seventeen-degrees angle of attack, and cycled the aerial refueling door.

As far as envelope expansion goes, we have conducted engine transients up to maximum afterburner from takeoff to 30,000 feet. We have been to 345 knots, 3.5 g's, and sixteen-degrees angle of attack and seventeen degrees with the landing gear down. We have three engines available for AA-1 but have flown only one. We want to fly as many hours as we can on it.

Summing up the flying characteristics: the F-35 flies a lot like the F-22 and has the size and feel of an F-16. The F-35 is a solid and very responsive airplane.

How does this test progression compare to previous fighter flight test programs you have worked?

The F-35 envelope expansion and flying qualities work is similar to previous fighter programs. That similarity may give the impression that we're conducting the same tests in the same ways. But that impression is false. A superficial comparison between the development of this fighter and the development of legacy fighters neglects mission capability.

Our customers are getting a whole lot more in the F-35 program. They are getting a baseline configuration with capabilities that required twenty or thirty years to develop for the F-16: infrared sensors, targeting pods, night vision systems, head-mounted cueing systems, and agile beam radars to name a few. During those years of development, the Air Force and Lockheed Martin conducted separate test programs to validate those capabilities. Those capabilities are all incorporated in this phase of the F-35 program. A truer comparison between legacy programs and the F-35 program would include the development time and cost for these additional capabilities.

Are any of these capabilities and systems unique to the F-35?

The F-35 has many unique capabilities. The helmet-mounted display and the integrated power package, or IPP, are two good examples. We began flying the HMD on Flight 10 and have flown with it on all succeeding flights. The HMD is much more than a helmet-mounted sight, which is flying in operational F-16s today as the joint helmet-mounted cueing system, better known as JHMCS. Our HMD also functions as a head-up display. That is, it shows all the information normally placed on the HUD, including speed, altitude, heading, and flight path information.

The system is working very well, and pilots quickly forget that the flight symbology is being displayed on the helmet rather than on a conventional head-up display. We don't have a HUD on the first F-35. And we have no plans to put one in any other F-35. Putting an HMD in the first airplane is a gutsy call. We are on track with its development. The initial results of incorporating an HMD in the test program have been better than we expected. The HMD is a significant jump in technology. This system has been performing very well.

The IPP, my second example, is a sophisticated turbine that acts as the auxiliary power unit on engine starts. When the engine is running, the IPP functions as an environmental control system, or ECS. When required, it also functions as an emergency power unit during emergency mode transitions. The IPP, then, performs the functions of three subsystems found on legacy fighters.

The first F-35 represents a configuration of the aircraft before the company undertook a significant weight-reduction effort. Why is the program testing an aircraft that is not completely representative of subsequent production models?

While the internal structure may be different, the shape of this first F-35 is almost identical to subsequent production versions. So gathering aerodynamic data on this configuration gives us an opportunity to evaluate performance characteristics on a real aircraft as opposed to making predictions using models or simulations. Additionally, testing and integrating all of the new systems in the F-35, as I described previously, gives us more than a year's head start on problems that we may encounter in testing and integrating these same systems in subsequent aircraft. Along with the HMD and IPP, other systems and features incorporated on subsequent F-35s include the F135 engine, electrical system, fuel system, electro-hydrostatic actuators, cockpit, weapon bay doors, and bay ventilation. So this first version of the Lightning II gives us an outstanding opportunity to reduce risk as we move forward with the program.

Let's take the cockpit as one example of the similarities between this and subsequent aircraft. With the exception of two switches, the AA-1 cockpit is the same as the next F-35, which will be a STOVL variant. And that F-35B STOVL cockpit will be the same across all three variants. On the STOVL airplane, one switch will read "conversion" instead of "hook." All of the other switches are the same. While the engine page on the F-35B has a display that deals with STOVL, most every other display on this variant is the same as the displays on the other variants. The missions systems are the same on all three variants. This commonality reduces the total scope—and expense—of the program. We are combining into one program what would have involved three separate and independent development programs in the past.

The electro-hydrostatic actuators, or EHAs, are another excellent example of risk reduction we're accomplishing on AA-1. This is the first real electric jet. The flight control actuators, while they have internal closed-loop hydraulic systems, are controlled and driven by electricity—not hydraulics. The F-35 is the only military aircraft flying with such a system. We proved that the approach works on six flights of the AFTI F-16 during the concept demonstration phase of the JSF program. We already have many more flights on EHAs on this test program. Because we are flying production versions of the EHAs on AA-1, we won't have to prove the EHA design on subsequent F-35s.

What are the immediate production plans for subsequent F-35s, and how will those aircraft be used in the flight test program?

Current plans call for fifteen flight test aircraft, including AA-1. The next four aircraft produced will be F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing, or STOVL, variants. These will be followed by three conventional takeoff and landing, or CTOL, aircraft. Then the first three carrier variant, or CV, aircraft will be produced followed by another STOVL aircraft and one more CV. Two more CTOL aircraft complete the production run of test aircraft. AF-1 and AF-2, the next CTOL variants to be produced, will be used for flight sciences; that is, they will be used to test aero-dynamics and flight controls and to expand the flight envelope. AF-3, 4, and 5 will be used to develop and test mission systems.

We will have three F-35B, or STOVL, variants for flight sciences and two F-35Bs for testing mission systems. The first flight sciences B-model will be dedicated to STOVL operations. The other two B-models will be used to expand the flight envelope.

We will have four F-35Cs dedicated to the flight test program. The first two carrier variants will be used for flight sciences. The third aircraft will be used for carrier suitability testing. The fourth aircraft will be used to test mission systems.

We had as many as six aircraft devoted to testing mission systems for the F-22. We have seven aircraft in this program. Fortunately, everything we do on the F-35A for mission systems applies to the F-35B and F-35C. The variants have only minor differences in terms of antenna sizes and shapes.

But the real virtue of this flight test program is that we have seven flight sciences aircraft. While the F-22 had only one true flight sciences aircraft, we need more because we have three variants as well as many external payload configurations that require testing as well. The potential external loadings on the internal weapon stations and six external hard points create a very large test matrix, which will eventually include most of the weapons carried by the F-16, F/A-18, Harrier, and A-10.

What will be the biggest challenge for the flight test program?

For AA-1, our biggest challenge is to be aggressive enough to find out all the things we don't yet know about the aircraft's performance. We have some real opportunities to learn how EHAs work at high speeds. Proving the HMD is another challenge. Testing the first aircraft gives our predictions for subsequent aircraft credibility. We want to knock off all the big risks with this first airplane and reduce all the other risks for future airplanes. After that, a big challenge is managing fourteen flight test aircraft in three test sites. Testing short takeoffs and vertical landings is always a challenge. First, we have to make STOVL work. We have to make short takeoffs and vertical landings as straightforward and as easy as possible. Pilots should not have to spend most of their training time on the first and last five minutes of the flight. How we mechanize transitions from horizontal to vertical flight will free up time for training skills more pertinent to the mission.

Developing mission systems will be a huge challenge, and testing those systems is one of the more critical parts of the program. The CATBird, a 737 modified to carry the F-35 sensor suite and associated systems, will help us reduce risk associated with mission systems. The number of weapons and configurations to clear also represents a challenge. If pilots can't employ weapons, the airplane is of no value. And we are testing these weapons in a large envelope. The F-35 can maneuver post-stall like an F/A-18. So we have a lot ahead of us. But we are certainly up to these challenges.



LINK : http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2007/articles/apr_07/flighttest/index.html
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
These excerpts from that article seem especially promising:

The thrust impressed me most. The first flight profile called for the F-35 to immediately go to 15,000 feet. I had to keep the speed at 225 knots during the climb since I had to keep the gear down, which limited the maximum speed.

The steep angle, witnessed by the crowds on the ground, highlighted the raw power I was experiencing in the cockpit. The thrust surprised me. Not in the sense of "Gee, how am I going to handle all of this power?" But more like, "Wow, this is more than I expected."

The F-16s flying chase don't have near the fuel capacity or payload capability as the F-35. The Lightning II does very well in comparison. For example, the F-35 often forces the chase aircraft into afterburner when it is in military power.

Another strong impression is that the airplane wants to fly a lot faster than we are allowed to fly at this point in the flight test program. Most of the time we fly at about thirty to forty percent of available thrust. This airplane can go out to high subsonic speeds very easily without using afterburner.

On Flight 9, we performed the first afterburner takeoff. Flight 9 was also our longest flight to that point, 1.5 hours. We took off with 3,500 pounds short of a full fuel load and landed with about 4,000 pounds of fuel remaining. So we shorted ourselves more fuel than the entire internal fuel capacity of an F-16 and still flew for 1.5 hours without aerial refueling. During Flight 9, we also flew close formations, power approaches, and maneuver blocks to sixteen-degrees angle of attack at 20,000 feet.

Summing up the flying characteristics: the F-35 flies a lot like the F-22 and has the size and feel of an F-16. The F-35 is a solid and very responsive airplane.

and

The F-35 can maneuver post-stall like an F/A-18...

I think a few of the naysayers are going to be eating their ill-chosen words in years to come...
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
These excerpts from that article seem especially promising:

The thrust impressed me most. The first flight profile called for the F-35 to immediately go to 15,000 feet. I had to keep the speed at 225 knots during the climb since I had to keep the gear down, which limited the maximum speed.

The steep angle, witnessed by the crowds on the ground, highlighted the raw power I was experiencing in the cockpit. The thrust surprised me. Not in the sense of "Gee, how am I going to handle all of this power?" But more like, "Wow, this is more than I expected."

The F-16s flying chase don't have near the fuel capacity or payload capability as the F-35. The Lightning II does very well in comparison. For example, the F-35 often forces the chase aircraft into afterburner when it is in military power.

Another strong impression is that the airplane wants to fly a lot faster than we are allowed to fly at this point in the flight test program. Most of the time we fly at about thirty to forty percent of available thrust. This airplane can go out to high subsonic speeds very easily without using afterburner.

On Flight 9, we performed the first afterburner takeoff. Flight 9 was also our longest flight to that point, 1.5 hours. We took off with 3,500 pounds short of a full fuel load and landed with about 4,000 pounds of fuel remaining. So we shorted ourselves more fuel than the entire internal fuel capacity of an F-16 and still flew for 1.5 hours without aerial refueling. During Flight 9, we also flew close formations, power approaches, and maneuver blocks to sixteen-degrees angle of attack at 20,000 feet.

Summing up the flying characteristics: the F-35 flies a lot like the F-22 and has the size and feel of an F-16. The F-35 is a solid and very responsive airplane.

and

The F-35 can maneuver post-stall like an F/A-18...

I think a few of the naysayers are going to be eating their ill-chosen words in years to come...


Come on AD....

Quoteing the lockheed martin test pilot is far from an objective opinion. i did like "fly's alot like an F22, but has the size and feel of an F16", i'm just wondering how it "flew" like an F22 exactly? Because it has more thrust than an F16, or because it has more payload??? :rolleyes:

The article seems to state that the F35 is a well built aircraft has more thrust than an F 16 and thats about it. But comparing it to an F22? The fact of the matter is it will never have the range, payload, thrust, manuverability, kinemetic performance, radar performance or LO performance of the F22. Primarily because it wasn't designed to be.

I dont see how this article sheds any light on the F35's combat capability, it doesnt even mention the two elements that will make the F35 a lethal air superiority platform, comprehensive LO and its ability to use data from offboard sensors. So i know we might be geting exited about our favorite platform, i have to admit i was wrong about it, but dont use an interview with the LM test pilot which says nothing we didnt allready know and doesent adress the F35's real combat systems as justification that you were right and they were wrong.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Come on AD....

Quoteing the lockheed martin test pilot is far from an objective opinion. i did like "fly's alot like an F22, but has the size and feel of an F16", i'm just wondering how it "flew" like an F22 exactly? Because it has more thrust than an F16, or because it has more payload??? :rolleyes:

The article seems to state that the F35 is a well built aircraft has more thrust than an F 16 and thats about it. But comparing it to an F22? The fact of the matter is it will never have the range, payload, thrust, manuverability, kinemetic performance, radar performance or LO performance of the F22. Primarily because it wasn't designed to be.

I dont see how this article sheds any light on the F35's combat capability, it doesnt even mention the two elements that will make the F35 a lethal air superiority platform, comprehensive LO and its ability to use data from offboard sensors. So i know we might be geting exited about our favorite platform, i have to admit i was wrong about it, but dont use an interview with the LM test pilot which says nothing we didnt allready know and doesent adress the F35's real combat systems as justification that you were right and they were wrong.

How about come on Ozzy?

The biggest issue most have with the aircraft is it's supposed lack of aerodynamic performance.


And given only 2 persons on this planet has yet flown anything like an operationally representative version of the aircraft (which is debatable because it hasn't received the "weight loss" mods) I fail to see how ANYTHING is more authoritative than this.

Stealth? No problems.

Avionics/networkings/sensors? No problems.

Range? No problems. In fact you are also incorrect about this. The F-35 is likely to possess GREATER range than the F-22.

Physical performance is the only issue that anyone could level at the F-35 in relation to the basic platform itself. Obviously risk exists with the program, funding, development etc, but in relation to the basic design of the aircraft, it's performance was the only conceivable thing wrong with it. The aircraft is performing brilliantly in it's trials to date. The lighter versions to come will do better.

When a clean F-16 chase plane has to go to afterburner to follow it in dry thrust, don't you find that somewhat illuminating?

Hence why this article is important and illustrating...
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Quoteing the lockheed martin test pilot is far from an objective opinion. i did like "fly's alot like an F22, but has the size and feel of an F16", i'm just wondering how it "flew" like an F22 exactly? Because it has more thrust than an F16, or because it has more payload??? :rolleyes:
This will never end... When the F-35 is in operational service and meeting and exceeding all its goals any reporting of this will still be labelled 'un-objective' by the Air Power Australia types. It’s a shame we don’t have a two-seat version to give Carlo Kopp a ride of his life so he can enthuse about it like he did the Super Hornet…

Eventually enough facts will be on the ground that only the crazies will be baffled by the anti-F35 [Admin: Scatalogical invective removed] . Until then we all have to put up with this kind of nonsense.

The best thing about the F-35s performance compared to the F-22 that the test pilot didn't evaluate is that the cost efficiency of the system means you can have at least two F-35s for every F-22. I'm yet to have it adequately explained to me how one F-22 will be better than two F-35s in any combat scenario?

PS This is not an invitation to launch into said debate! In fact I probably shouldn't have even typed this post... the moderators are going to hate me.
 
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metro

New Member
when they're comparing the amount of fuel the "F-35" returned with (after 1.5hr) compared to an F-16, does it say anywhere if they're comparing an "un-armed" F-35 with the average F-16 flying with a full payload, or are they comparing "apples to apples." Meaning, the F-35 flying with a full payload will have the same results compared to a "chase" F-16 flying with a full payload (is that what they are already comparing or a "light" F-35 vs. a "heavy" F-16)?
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
This will never end... When the F-35 is in operational service and meeting and exceeding all its goals any reporting of this will still be labelled 'un-objective' by the Air Power Australia types. It’s a shame we don’t have a two-seat version to give Carlo Kopp a ride of his life so he can enthuse about it like he did the Super Hornet…

Eventually enough facts will be on the ground that only the crazies will be baffled by the anti-F35 bullshit. Until then we all have to put up with this kind of nonsense.

The best thing about the F-35s performance compared to the F-22 that the test pilot didn't evaluate is that the cost efficiency of the system means you can have at least two F-35s for every F-22. I'm yet to have it adequately explained to me how one F-22 will be better than two F-35s in any combat scenario?

PS This is not an invitation to launch into said debate! In fact I probably shouldn't have even typed this post... the moderators are going to hate me.
I know what happened in the last F35 thread so i'll keep it short and sweet.


  • It may be exeeding its objectives but if you look at those ojectives as far airodynamic and kinemetic performance, they are braodly in the range of an F16. And that is not as capable as an F22 or SU30MKI, no matter how badly you want it to be.

  • it seems you think any critisism of the F35 is bulls**t and pro APA propaganda.

  • If the F35 is so much better value for money and allmost as capable as the F22A, then i wonder why the USAF chief of staff considers the F35 as his 10th priority, when aquireing the full complement of 380 F22A's, the KCX (new tanker) and the CSCAR-X (new search and resucue helecopter) are his top 3. If the F35 will bring such value for money and awesome capabilities to the USAF, why isn't it more important than a new search and rescue helicopter? In an interview with Combat aircraft magazine volume 8 he admitted that the F35 programe was now too big to stop. This is the head of the orginization for whom the platofrm was primarily designed for. Perhaps he's just fallen for the anti F35 bulls**t and is annother one of those "APA types". :rolleyes:

  • LM who built the platform and are trying to market it overseas and keep the programe alive give it kill ratio v Su30 as 4:1, they give the F22A's as 12:1 if i remember correctly. They seem to think the F22 is worth 2 F35's in the air superiority role, 3 infact. And this does not take the fact that the F22 routeenly scores rediculous kill ratio's v 4th and 4.5th gen platforms, including your pretions Super Hornet, and i'm not sure how the Su 30 would fair any better.

  • IMO the F35 is the best option for the RAAFwith the F22A not being made available for export, but a late build squadron of F22A's would be perfect.

  • there is no reason for foul language

Mods thats the last i'll say on the issue. I know what happened last time but when someone has an implicit dig at you i must assume you are entitled to respectfully defend yourself are you not?
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
    • If the F35 is so much better value for money and allmost as capable as the F22A, then i wonder why the USAF chief of staff considers the F35 as his 10th priority, when aquireing the full complement of 380 F22A's, the KCX (new tanker) and the CSCAR-X (new search and resucue helecopter) are his top 3. If the F35 will bring such value for money and awesome capabilities to the USAF, why isn't it more important than a new search and rescue helicopter? In an interview with Combat aircraft magazine volume 8 he admitted that the F35 programe was now too big to stop. This is the head of the orginization for whom the platofrm was primarily designed for. Perhaps he's just fallen for the anti F35 bulls**t and is annother one of those "APA types". :rolleyes:


  • I would think such a list reflects the political environment it works in wrt funding; as such not a direct priority list, but a compromise between what is needed and what has a secure budget. If the F-35 is self evident and is "now too big to stop", then you don't need to make a case for it.

    Just 2 bits.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I know what happened in the last F35 thread so i'll keep it short and sweet.
  • It may be exeeding its objectives but if you look at those ojectives as far airodynamic and kinemetic performance, they are braodly in the range of an F16. And that is not as capable as an F22 or SU30MKI, no matter how badly you want it to be.
I admit it's been a while since I visited the L-M website, but as I recall the F-35A was designed to meet or exceed the aerodynamic performance of the F-16/F/A-18 series fighters.

If Mr Beezley's comments are to be believed (and I fail to see anyone outside of L-M possessing the data to justify such a position), then the F-35 has clearly exceeded the performances levels of both aircraft...

If the F35 is so much better value for money and allmost as capable as the F22A, then i wonder why the USAF chief of staff considers the F35 as his 10th priority, when aquireing the full complement of 380 F22A's, the KCX (new tanker) and the CSCAR-X (new search and resucue helecopter) are his top 3. If the F35 will bring such value for money and awesome capabilities to the USAF, why isn't it more important than a new search and rescue helicopter? In an interview with Combat aircraft magazine volume 8 he admitted that the F35 programe was now too big to stop. This is the head of the orginization for whom the platofrm was primarily designed for. Perhaps he's just fallen for the anti F35 bulls**t and is annother one of those "APA types". :rolleyes:
Depends which article you read I suppose. I've read another where he stated the F-35 WAS in the top 3 highest projects for the USAF, with only the Tanker and CSAR-X ahead of it, due to the well-known airframe issues with those types...

LM who built the platform and are trying to market it overseas and keep the programe alive give it kill ratio v Su30 as 4:1, they give the F22A's as 12:1 if i remember correctly. They seem to think the F22 is worth 2 F35's in the air superiority role, 3 infact. And this does not take the fact that the F22 routeenly scores rediculous kill ratio's v 4th and 4.5th gen platforms, including your pretions Super Hornet, and i'm not sure how the Su 30 would fair any better.
I've not seen anything from L-M or anyone else talking about official "kill ratio's" for the F-35 OR the F-22 for that matter. I've seen some speculation from a number of exercises that talks about this or that aircraft's ability. It's hardly "beyond reasonable doubt" sort of material though is it?

The point I was making before was an attempt to point out to those who have made up their minds, that perhaps everything is not as cut and dried as they would have it seem.

Going around and attempting to scare everybody with dire predictions of an aircraft's performance, before the thing has even flown, seems rather ridiculous to me...
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The F-35 is shaping up to be exactly as i mentioned previously.

The F-35 may end up being the second fastest fighter under wartime conditions. As in carrying a typical warload of a couple bombs, a couple missions and no use of afterburners to increase range/endurnace. The Eurofighter, Rafale and SU-30 suffer from having to carry weapons extrenally and the drag penalties that apply.

Though it only takes a small advantage in detection range or speed to absolutely decimate the enemy. I believe the F-22 if used well will be able to get an immense kill ratio against the F-35.

The kill ratio's of 10:1 are unrealistic as the enemy will never have 10 fighters in the same location. The F-22 will not attack 10 enemy fighters. The F-22 will kill the enemy one by one and live to fighter another day where it will take out a few more and then a few more... Eventually 100 enemy aircraft have been shot down without a single F-22 loss.

The huge training and tactical advantage allows the F-22 to clear the skies. A 12:1 ratio against the SU-30 is quite laughable really. If both sides had equal intel, awac and training then maybe the 12:1 ratio might be correct.

The F-35 with these assets assisting will allow it to be superior to anything except the F-22.

The F-22 put simply is overkill for everyone except the USAF. For the same reason Australia doesn't need its own B-2 bomber they are both overkill.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
[/LIST]I admit it's been a while since I visited the L-M website, but as I recall the F-35A was designed to meet or exceed the aerodynamic performance of the F-16/F/A-18 series fighters.

If Mr Beezley's comments are to be believed (and I fail to see anyone outside of L-M possessing the data to justify such a position), then the F-35 has clearly exceeded the performances levels of both aircraft...
I did say broadly. I dare say wing loading, roll, pitch and yaw rates, acceleration, top speed ect ect will be broadly in the same class as the F/A 18 and F16. They are apt to be better i agree, which is impressive given the LO capabilities of the aircraft. I'm not disputing any of the factual statements beasly said, but he made a direct comparison to the F22 which doesent really make too much sence. You were right about the combat radii, the F35 will be slightly better when clean.

Depends which article you read I suppose. I've read another where he stated the F-35 WAS in the top 3 highest projects for the USAF, with only the Tanker and CSAR-X ahead of it, due to the well-known airframe issues with those types...
I guess so. It may well have been a top priority of the USAF at one point, the article states that the F35 was once very high up on the list but does not enjoy the favor it once had. This article is a direct interview with General Micheal Moseley, USAF chief of staff so it is from the horses mouth. But this doesnt therefore indicate that ithe F35 is a bad platform, i brought it up in rebuttal to a point stating that the F35 was a much more cost effective soloution as there is nothing 1 F22A can do that 2 F35's cant. It seems the apparant partial apathy of the USAF brass to the F35 (the ones who are not affiliated with the programe) and Moseleys fighting for every single F22 he can get his hands on would indicate there definatly are things the F22 can do that the F35 cant.

I've not seen anything from L-M or anyone else talking about official "kill ratio's" for the F-35 OR the F-22 for that matter. I've seen some speculation from a number of exercises that talks about this or that aircraft's ability. It's hardly "beyond reasonable doubt" sort of material though is it?
I never stated that it was anything more than marketing numbers and i never said it was official. They were the CLAIMED kill ratio's 4:1 for the F35 and 12:1 for the F22. They're the ones trying to sell the damn things and it seems they THINK 1 F22 will be worth 3 F35's in A2A combat, even though the F22 has shown much much better kill ratio's against similar 4th gen platforms AKA SU30. I never stated it was beyonde a reasonable doubt, but if LM considers the F35 to be significantly less capable than the F22 at A2A combat (which funnily enough is its design peramiters), when there is a furtile export market for the F35 would indicate that then it probably is to around the tune of 3 to 1.

The point I was making before was an attempt to point out to those who have made up their minds, that perhaps everything is not as cut and dried as they would have it seem.

Going around and attempting to scare everybody with dire predictions of an aircraft's performance, before the thing has even flown, seems rather ridiculous to me.....
Thats a fair enough point. However even if a platform hasn't actually flown yet you can be reasonably sure of its capabilities if you just look at its design specifications. A platform is may indeed exceed its objectives, however that doesent mean that it can dramaticly alter the platforms performance. The F35 may indeed end up being more agile and kinemiticaly capable than its objectives, but that doesent mean it will be significantly so, ie somehow somehow be as capable as the SU30 MKI Typhoon or F22A in this reguard. So i dont see a problem in discusing a platforms capabilities just becaus it isnt in full scale production yet. As i have said before requirement=design=cost, dont expect it to be something it wasnt designed to be.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
The F-35 is shaping up to be exactly as i mentioned previously.

The F-35 may end up being the second fastest fighter under wartime conditions. As in carrying a typical warload of a couple bombs, a couple missions and no use of afterburners to increase range/endurnace. The Eurofighter, Rafale and SU-30 suffer from having to carry weapons extrenally and the drag penalties that apply.
It may well be quite fast when transiting, but under combat conditions the Typhoon alone will be much quicker. It has demonstrated the ability to cruise at Mach 1.3+ with 6 AAM's. Are you claiming the F35 will be able to do that? If the F35 carried anything more than 6 AAM's (assuming they use double rail launchers in the internal bays) it would be externally and then your dealing with drag too.

How often are air superiority fighters going to be carrying a couple of bombs with a couple of missions so dispersed that afterburners wouldn't be permitted? And when would a pilot be prohibited from using his afterburners in a combat scenario? They may be ordered to transit at low speed, they all would be anyway, but there is no way a pilot would go into airial combat without using his afterburners if he needed to. I highly doubt this would occur under any sircumstances.

Though it only takes a small advantage in detection range or speed to absolutely decimate the enemy. I believe the F-22 if used well will be able to get an immense kill ratio against the F-35.
I disagree. It takes alot more than a little bit more speed of a little bit of a smaller detection radius to decimate an enemy. Whats the use of detecting the enemy just before he detects you especially when you have to get well inside their detection radius to employ your weapons in a usefull manner. In this case it takes a combination of technology giving the pilot acsess to a set of tactics that the oposition does not have the ability to employ or couter. For example an F35 (or a pair of F35's) engageing a pair of SU 30MKI(or equivelent) equiped with advanced ESM may not fair that well. They probably would get the first shot and would probably win the encounter, but they sacrifice their LO (to some extent) by using their radars. The APG 81 may be LPI but im not sure how well it will fare against advanced ESM, especially when tracking an enemy aircraft. The fact is that the radar is putting significant electromagnetic energy into the target aircraft, and no amount of frequency jumping is going to make the emissions undetectable. But you add a wedgetail into the equasion the ballgame changes significantly. It can track the incoming bogeys and datalink the information to the F35's who can launch on the Wedgetails track. The F35's stay emissions cold and the Flankers ESM only ever see's the wedgetail 400km's away untill they detect the AMRAAM. They could hit the flankers with an EA if they needed to.

Its not just the fact that the F35 has LO or networking or an AESA radar, any of them by themselves are not that impresive, its all of these factors including the quality of offboard sensors and their ability to be fully intergrated into the F35 that allow a revoloutionary set of tactics to be employed, and i have to admit that this is somethink Dr Kopp and APA are either not adressing or havent considered.

The kill ratio's of 10:1 are unrealistic as the enemy will never have 10 fighters in the same location. The F-22 will not attack 10 enemy fighters. The F-22 will kill the enemy one by one and live to fighter another day where it will take out a few more and then a few more... Eventually 100 enemy aircraft have been shot down without a single F-22 loss.
The numbers aren't supose to mean that every F22 that enters into combat will shoot down 12 enemy aircraft, it does indicate throughout a nairial engagement or campaign against the SU 30 air threat the F22 equiped force will shoot down 12 enemy aircraft for eveny one that is lost to enemy fire. When you hear 3:1 kill ratio's in vietnam or 10:1 in korea it doesent mean every UN/US fighter shot down 3 or 10 aircraft (respectively), it means that for every aircraft lost to enemy fire 3 or 10 enemy aircraft were brought down.

The huge training and tactical advantage allows the F-22 to clear the skies. A 12:1 ratio against the SU-30 is quite laughable really. If both sides had equal intel, awac and training then maybe the 12:1 ratio might be correct.
That is exactly what the so called projected kill ratio's are suppose to outline, all things being equal a force equiped with F22A's will shoot down a force equiped with SU 30's at a rate of 12 for every 1 that is lost.

The F-35 with these assets assisting will allow it to be superior to anything except the F-22.
In general air superiority engagements i totaly agree with you. The F35 + AIM120D + Wedgetail + high speed/high capacity datalink will be a combination that will be hard to beat, at least untill low wavelength radars in the HF frequency are viable in the air combat arena.

The F-22 put simply is overkill for everyone except the USAF. For the same reason Australia doesn't need its own B-2 bomber they are both overkill.
I have to disagree with you on this one. The B2 is a bad analogy for the F22A. There are functions the F35 can not perform in the same maner as the F22. As an interceptor of high speed, high or low altitude strike packages or cruise missiles, the F35 will not perform anywere near as well as the F22A. The japanese stated that the F22A is an esential part of its future force structure because of this exact capability. It can effectively counter high speed high alititude missiles in a maner no other platform can. If the Tu 22 Backfire ever does become a part of the PLAAF's order of battle, the F22A and to a lesser extent the F15J are the only platforms that can counter it. The high speed high altitude penitration coupled with capable standoff weapons is a very hard combination to stop, thats why the Chinese are so keen on it and the Japanese are so Keen on countering it. Also the F22A will be much much more survivable than export F35's when attempting to penitrate an IADS with systems as capable as S300/S400. The F35's narrowband LO will be much less capable in this environment and it will be heavily relyant on SEAD/DEAD and EW support.

And dont start on about the F35 being faster crap. Tu 22 is designed to penitrate at Mach 2 numbers with a full payload, so are many other platrforms. The fact that a platform may be slightly faster when crusing may indeed mean that it moves arround the battlespace a bit faster for 95% of the mission. But for the 5% that really counts, the combat itself, afterburners are very usefull, even if they do drink a bit. And to claim that the F35 is a beter kinemetic performer because for the other 95% it moves arround faster when for the 5% that were it actually enguages the enemy it is outclassed by it's peers is not rational. It ammounts to stating that transit speed is more important than combat performance in influencing the outcome of the combat itself.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Meaning a narrow group of bandwiths, less comprehensive than the F22A's LO which is optimised for most bandwiths. Whats wrong with narrowband? Sounds quite logical to me.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Meaning a narrow group of bandwiths, less comprehensive than the F22A's LO which is optimised for most bandwiths. Whats wrong with narrowband? Sounds quite logical to me.
I may be pedantic, but "narrowband" seems to to imply that is not LO at other than high freqs. It is exclusive. "Optimised for high freqs" is more precise imv. (Also because bandwidth is used as a measure of data transmission, iirc. I.e. narrowband itself implies low data transmission rates).
 

10ringr

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
why the F-35 was made

It may well be quite fast when transiting, but under combat conditions the Typhoon alone will be much quicker. It has demonstrated the ability to cruise at Mach 1.3+ with 6 AAM's. Are you claiming the F35 will be able to do that? If the F35 carried anything more than 6 AAM's (assuming they use double rail launchers in the internal bays) it would be externally and then your dealing with drag too.

How often are air superiority fighters going to be carrying a couple of bombs with a couple of missions so dispersed that afterburners wouldn't be permitted? And when would a pilot be prohibited from using his afterburners in a combat scenario? They may be ordered to transit at low speed, they all would be anyway, but there is no way a pilot would go into airial combat without using his afterburners if he needed to. I highly doubt this would occur under any sircumstances.





I disagree. It takes alot more than a little bit more speed of a little bit of a smaller detection radius to decimate an enemy. Whats the use of detecting the enemy just before he detects you especially when you have to get well inside their detection radius to employ your weapons in a usefull manner. In this case it takes a combination of technology giving the pilot acsess to a set of tactics that the oposition does not have the ability to employ or couter. For example an F35 (or a pair of F35's) engageing a pair of SU 30MKI(or equivelent) equiped with advanced ESM may not fair that well. They probably would get the first shot and would probably win the encounter, but they sacrifice their LO (to some extent) by using their radars. The APG 81 may be LPI but im not sure how well it will fare against advanced ESM, especially when tracking an enemy aircraft. The fact is that the radar is putting significant electromagnetic energy into the target aircraft, and no amount of frequency jumping is going to make the emissions undetectable. But you add a wedgetail into the equasion the ballgame changes significantly. It can track the incoming bogeys and datalink the information to the F35's who can launch on the Wedgetails track. The F35's stay emissions cold and the Flankers ESM only ever see's the wedgetail 400km's away untill they detect the AMRAAM. They could hit the flankers with an EA if they needed to.

Its not just the fact that the F35 has LO or networking or an AESA radar, any of them by themselves are not that impresive, its all of these factors including the quality of offboard sensors and their ability to be fully intergrated into the F35 that allow a revoloutionary set of tactics to be employed, and i have to admit that this is somethink Dr Kopp and APA are either not adressing or havent considered.



The numbers aren't supose to mean that every F22 that enters into combat will shoot down 12 enemy aircraft, it does indicate throughout a nairial engagement or campaign against the SU 30 air threat the F22 equiped force will shoot down 12 enemy aircraft for eveny one that is lost to enemy fire. When you hear 3:1 kill ratio's in vietnam or 10:1 in korea it doesent mean every UN/US fighter shot down 3 or 10 aircraft (respectively), it means that for every aircraft lost to enemy fire 3 or 10 enemy aircraft were brought down.



That is exactly what the so called projected kill ratio's are suppose to outline, all things being equal a force equiped with F22A's will shoot down a force equiped with SU 30's at a rate of 12 for every 1 that is lost.



In general air superiority engagements i totaly agree with you. The F35 + AIM120D + Wedgetail + high speed/high capacity datalink will be a combination that will be hard to beat, at least untill low wavelength radars in the HF frequency are viable in the air combat arena.



I have to disagree with you on this one. The B2 is a bad analogy for the F22A. There are functions the F35 can not perform in the same maner as the F22. As an interceptor of high speed, high or low altitude strike packages or cruise missiles, the F35 will not perform anywere near as well as the F22A. The japanese stated that the F22A is an esential part of its future force structure because of this exact capability. It can effectively counter high speed high alititude missiles in a maner no other platform can. If the Tu 22 Backfire ever does become a part of the PLAAF's order of battle, the F22A and to a lesser extent the F15J are the only platforms that can counter it. The high speed high altitude penitration coupled with capable standoff weapons is a very hard combination to stop, thats why the Chinese are so keen on it and the Japanese are so Keen on countering it. Also the F22A will be much much more survivable than export F35's when attempting to penitrate an IADS with systems as capable as S300/S400. The F35's narrowband LO will be much less capable in this environment and it will be heavily relyant on SEAD/DEAD and EW support.

And dont start on about the F35 being faster crap. Tu 22 is designed to penitrate at Mach 2 numbers with a full payload, so are many other platrforms. The fact that a platform may be slightly faster when crusing may indeed mean that it moves arround the battlespace a bit faster for 95% of the mission. But for the 5% that really counts, the combat itself, afterburners are very usefull, even if they do drink a bit. And to claim that the F35 is a beter kinemetic performer because for the other 95% it moves arround faster when for the 5% that were it actually enguages the enemy it is outclassed by it's peers is not rational. It ammounts to stating that transit speed is more important than combat performance in influencing the outcome of the combat itself.
It sounds like you guys are arguing about things that are pointless to begin with because the F-35 was meant to be a low budget solution to the vastly more capable F/A 22. Comparing it to air superiority fighters is nice but why. In fact it'll probably hold it's own with anything but an F/A 22 (that duzn't meant it's going to be the world beater the 22 is) So, stop bickering about this bird. It's good, we'll need it but we MUST HAVE air superiority and that will ONLY be achieved with the production of the F/A 22 in significant quantities. The hype has gotten rediculous! Honesty to Pete your talking about having a single engine F-16-esk fighter going after the Tu22? Why don't you then send up a V22 Osprey to intercept the TU160 while your add it. Or perhaps you can use your golf cart to catch the Buran too. Hutch
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It may be exeeding its objectives but if you look at those ojectives as far airodynamic and kinemetic performance, they are braodly in the range of an F16. And that is not as capable as an F22 or SU30MKI, no matter how badly you want it to be.
OK so we don’t enter the F-35 in any Red Bull Air Races against the Su-30… However kinematic performance is not going to help the Su-30 in any available force structure go up against the F-35 in their force structure. Kinematic performance didn’t help the MiG-25s against the F-15s and it won’t the next generation.

it seems you think any critisism of the F35 is bulls**t and pro APA propaganda.
Not at all. But the rubbishing of the test pilot as ‘not a reliable source’ of comment is typical of information warfare inspired practices of APA. While APA has failed to have any real impact on the force structure decisions for the RAAF they have been quite successful at running a public relations campaign. I suggest they give up on aviation and move to the US and set up a political campaign agency and rake in some big dollars spinning bullshit for other scumbags.

If the F35 is so much better value for money and allmost as capable as the F22A, then i wonder why the USAF chief of staff considers the F35 as his 10th priority,
See my response above – more propaganda nonsense. You know very well this isn’t a list of priorities in terms of force structure. It’s a list of priorities to obtain funding from Congress. Unfunded items go to the top those with funding like F-35 to the bottom. Gobbells would be proud of this IW spin.

LM who built the platform and are trying to market it overseas and keep the programe alive give it kill ratio v Su30 as 4:1, they give the F22A's as 12:1 if i remember correctly. They seem to think the F22 is worth 2 F35's in the air superiority role, 3 infact. And this does not take the fact that the F22 routeenly scores rediculous kill ratio's v 4th and 4.5th gen platforms, including your pretions Super Hornet, and i'm not sure how the Su 30 would fair any better.
More abject nonsense. Since when are USAF F-22s going to fight RAAF Super Hornets? Are you planning something? A resurgence of Mark Latham for PM? Or Perhaps Bob Brown? Or maybe Mufti Al Halwali...

Those LD ratios sound ridiculous. F-22 and F-35 will both achieve a LD against the Su-30 of 0-x, x being the number of Su-30s available to the enemy.

there is no reason for foul language
And you claim to be an ‘Ozzy’… For shame, for shame…

Tu 22 is designed to penitrate at Mach 2 numbers with a full payload, so are many other platrforms.
Ohh Carlo I don’t know what’s worse that you believe this crap or that you’ve convinced others its important. The Tu-22!!!!

You know there are other ways to counter very small number of pinprick Tu-22 attacks, even in the increasingly unlikely event they were ever targeted at Australia. The US Navy in the 1980s that faced a real Tu-22 threat didn’t rely purely on high speed interceptors they had a range of responses. As do we… JORN being on top of that list…

It sounds like you guys are arguing about things that are pointless to begin with because the F-35 was meant to be a low budget solution to the vastly more capable F/A 22.
I’m afraid this is nonsense. The F-35 achieves significant cost savings compared to the F-22 by being smaller in size (weight = cost) and by being bigger in volume achieving efficiencies of scale. It doesn’t skimp on systems and capability, having more systems in it than the F-22.

A force made up of F-35s will achieve air dominance just like the F-22. The mantra that the F-22 is the golden bullet is just crap design to keep it’s project alive. Or maybe an insurance policy against something unexpected like The Transformers or Godzilla… Because China and/or Russia are not going to be anywhere near challenging the US’s strategic might within our lifetimes.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I may be pedantic, but "narrowband" seems to to imply that is not LO at other than high freqs. It is exclusive. "Optimised for high freqs" is more precise imv. (Also because bandwidth is used as a measure of data transmission, iirc. I.e. narrowband itself implies low data transmission rates).
Sorry mate i meant frequency, your quite right.

But the "narrowband" lable indicates that it is optimised for these wavelengths and therefore less capable at lower wavelenths, in comparison to other LO platforms. Anyway its easy to say.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
It sounds like you guys are arguing about things that are pointless to begin with because the F-35 was meant to be a low budget solution to the vastly more capable F/A 22. Comparing it to air superiority fighters is nice but why. In fact it'll probably hold it's own with anything but an F/A 22 (that duzn't meant it's going to be the world beater the 22 is) So, stop bickering about this bird. It's good, we'll need it but we MUST HAVE air superiority and that will ONLY be achieved with the production of the F/A 22 in significant quantities. The hype has gotten rediculous! Honesty to Pete your talking about having a single engine F-16-esk fighter going after the Tu22? Why don't you then send up a V22 Osprey to intercept the TU160 while your add it. Or perhaps you can use your golf cart to catch the Buran too. Hutch
For the USAF your right there's no need to compare them.

It would be nice if we all had a defence budget to match the US but the rest of us peasants out here are going to have to choose our capabilities wiseley. In the Australian/Japanese context we are facing a "threat" nation who is rapidly increasing in capabilities which include a proposed Tu22 purchase and a variety cruise missile and standoff capabilities. For the RAAF we have $16-20bn AUD to spend i would imagine, so we cant just design our own F22esk aircraft and build 380 of them can we? At the moment we areplanning to buy ~100 F35A's and possibly some F35b's. So in this context the F22A does need to be compared to the F35 as to wht will best suit the RAAF's and JSDAF's needs and in the australian context whether an investment in a squadron sized purchase of the F22 (assuming it becomes available for export) is worth the expense. If not then there we mavy very well be sending a "F16 esk platform" to intercept a Tu22, but we wont have any ospreys if they buy any blackjacks.
 
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