Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
That is funny: Canadian pollies get to achieve anything in defence? :) We live in hope. Why would any Canadian allies rely on Canada for anything? Pardon my bluntness - Canadian Politicians will seriously have to make DEFENCE a NON-ISSUE much the same as the Australians have done in most respects (always differences but usually bi-partisan support). I would have thought the French Speaking and English Speaking Canuckians would have taught all the politicians there how to get along for the mutual benefit of all. No such luck for Canada.
The difference is Canada lives in a bubble. Many western nations now live in bubbles. They see the area physically around them as safe and they can't or won't see much outside of that. There is nothing to tear them away from that. Some have a few ex-colonies that may make the news now and again, but the general action to them, is they are now on their own and they don't have much to do with them. They only ever see working as a coalition partner under the umbrella of a superior power to make contributions to fixing problems. Under their new leadership they certainly don't want to take on issues that are hard.

Australia is in a different situation because our gaze is near limitless. By the time something comes to our door it is catastrophically bad and we will be alone. We were able to convince ourselves of a bubble for a period, but reality kept crashing through. We have responsibilities as the eminent major power in South East Asia and the Pacific/Oceania.
PNG, Indonesia, Fiji, the smaller islands, Singapore, Malaysia, the wider Asia pacific. All constantly draw us in as a workable moderate middle power. The lubricant that facilitates pax Americana.

As the European powers have further created bubbles for themselves, withdrawing back into the EU bubble, Australia's role is increasing in prominence.

As the US, the UK and Europe lack cohesive leadership on a large number of issues and problems, there is greater pressure to come up with our own cohesive plans and policy.

It would be harder to pick a time of weaker global leadership than now. The situation lacks clarity for a huge number of reasons and is likely to get worse.

Which is why both parties know how critical Australia's military capability has become. Both are furiously trying to come up with policy and positions on a range of issues Australia never really had to think too much about as an individual nation.

Given the current environment, we should be doubling our efforts. While Rudds white paper seemed so impossibly optimistic, we are now at the end of that capability dream (or at its implementation stage). We now need to relook at our future and continue to have future plans and get consensus on what is important.

The Navy will be a key part of that. Arguably it carries Australia's power. You would have to go a long way in many directions to find a nation with a superior Navy to what we currently have planned.

I expect Canada and other nations to continue to flounder on various aspects of defence. They don't have the clarity or the purpose. I am skeptical of the UK commitment to Asia. I am skeptical of any Canadian partnership. I am becoming skeptical of the US. There isn't that clarity and bipartisan (or even single party) consensus on a large number of issues.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The last paragraph of your post is is pretty much the way things are going. One point I would emphasize is the bubble Canada has is really the result of sharing a border with an ally that is superpower. It certainly distorts reality for our dimwit electorate when it comes to defence thus allowing pollies to ignore defence.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The last paragraph of your post is is pretty much the way things are going. One point I would emphasize is the bubble Canada has is really the result of sharing a border with an ally that is superpower. It certainly distorts reality for our dimwit electorate when it comes to defence thus allowing pollies to ignore defence.
I have a fair bit of sympathy for Canada, anything that close to the US is going to be warped by its gravity field. Canada also would find it difficult to see beyond the US because the US is all encompassing. Unlike Australia, the US absolutely has to protect Canada.

But they are in a bubble.

Australia has accelerated its frigate program (much to the disappointment of the UK/BAE) and has been pretty aggressive with the start dates of other programs. Given the current geopolitical situation you would want to be building as fast as possible. This is the time to double your efforts.

With Trump in the whitehouse and McCain possibly terminally sick. I think Australia should seek approval for a vast array of equipment. V-22, SM-3, F-35B, additional F-35A, asroc, LCAC replacements, LRASM, AEGIS upgrades, additional M1A1, Superhornet upgrades etc. Anything that can be done to allow fast tracking of any major military project.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Australia has accelerated its frigate program (much to the disappointment of the UK/BAE) and has been pretty aggressive with the start dates of other programs. Given the current geopolitical situation you would want to be building as fast as possible. This is the time to double your efforts.
The problem with accelerating some of these programs is that the money and spare capacity isn't there. Programs such as building 12 new subs will be spread out over 30 or more years. Australia's new frigate program is intended to deliver a new frigate every 2 or 3 years.

The US has the same problem in that it wants to expand its fleet as quickly as possible. Its answer is will probably be extending the life of its current fleet or reactivating some of its older vessels.

Perhaps as a short term fix Australia could consider the same thing.

The two last built FFGs could serve through to the mid 20s the Anzacs could serve until the mid to late 30s and the Collins subs could probably have their lives extended by another dock cycle.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Extending the age of a platform is a slippery slope. We get 40 or so years out of these platforms then the politicians start asking why we are only aiming for 30 or so years normally, Why we aren't building ships over a 40 year period compared to planned 30 year period.

They have systematically shown to be quite simply morons when it comes to manufacturing and the cost curve (Though I'm sure other members can point out easily other area's outside of manufacturing where there 'cost savings' has ended up costing more).

Hate to say it but I'd rather have us lose numbers for a period of time then risk politicians changing up the life span and acquisition schedule we have set.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Extending the age of a platform is a slippery slope. We get 40 or so years out of these platforms then the politicians start asking why we are only aiming for 30 or so years normally, Why we aren't building ships over a 40 year period compared to planned 30 year period.

They have systematically shown to be quite simply morons when it comes to manufacturing and the cost curve (Though I'm sure other members can point out easily other area's outside of manufacturing where there 'cost savings' has ended up costing more).

Hate to say it but I'd rather have us lose numbers for a period of time then risk politicians changing up the life span and acquisition schedule we have set.
Has there ever been a proper cost analysis of upgrading and maintaining older ships as opposed to just replacing them?
 

Hazdog

Member
I have a fair bit of sympathy for Canada, anything that close to the US is going to be warped by its gravity field. Canada also would find it difficult to see beyond the US because the US is all encompassing. Unlike Australia, the US absolutely has to protect Canada.

But they are in a bubble.

Australia has accelerated its frigate program (much to the disappointment of the UK/BAE) and has been pretty aggressive with the start dates of other programs. Given the current geopolitical situation you would want to be building as fast as possible. This is the time to double your efforts.

With Trump in the whitehouse and McCain possibly terminally sick. I think Australia should seek approval for a vast array of equipment. V-22, SM-3, F-35B, additional F-35A, asroc, LCAC replacements, LRASM, AEGIS upgrades, additional M1A1, Superhornet upgrades etc. Anything that can be done to allow fast tracking of any major military project.
Agreed,

Could be a very good time to strengthen and upgrade the ADF. Other purchases should also be considered, i.e. THAAD or otherwise.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Stage One - Garden Island East Wharf Upgrade Program Video. The LHD is parked PORT side to and that seems convenient for the wharf crane seen at end of video. For the heads of fishes :) : is this correct?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRt0fvMVars
Well, while parking stbd side to is normal for islanded ships, you do park port side to on occasion; Sydney when a troop transport did so quite frequently.

I wonder why they created a not very good representation of an "LHD" which seems to be a combination of ours, the USN's and bits of the old LPA (in the bow). Would have thought it easier just to pinch an existing graphic of the real ship, of which there are dozens, and manipulate that. The ways of the PR folks are weird and wonderful.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Has there ever been a proper cost analysis of upgrading and maintaining older ships as opposed to just replacing them?
Yes, quite a number. Ones I'm aware of in the Australian context occurred in the 80s when we were justifying the ANZACs, in the latter part of the 90s when we were looking at the possibility of acquiring the Kidds (more than one actually) and right at the end of that decade when we were looking at the viability of Tobruk to run on past her then EOL. And there may well have been others.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Has there ever been a proper cost analysis of upgrading and maintaining older ships as opposed to just replacing them?
www.aph.gov.au/~/media/wopapub/senate/committee/fadt.../sub17_pdf.ashx

2006 submission by ASC to the Federal government.

To be fair cost's of maintaining a ship that is 10, 20 or 30 years old is similar however on the opposing end the spectrum the capability of the vessel does start to drop off dramatically especially after year 21.

Need to read the full submission but overall cost savings come into play through increased production (50% or more over the same period) making the industry truly continuous and also ship capability/availability giving you more capable ships available for more days at sea with out needed to increase the number of ships.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Stage One - Garden Island East Wharf Upgrade Program Video. The LHD is parked PORT side to and that seems convenient for the wharf crane seen at end of video. For the heads of fishes :) : is this correct?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRt0fvMVars
Since that vid was released a few weeks ago I've been wondering if this has been a long term plan to service the LHDs out on the Oil wharf? I understood they spent big money upgrading the old carrier wharf and removing the crane specifically to service the LHDs, maybe the good burghers of Wooloomooloo finally got enough sway to change Navy's mind?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Extending the age of a platform is a slippery slope. We get 40 or so years out of these platforms then the politicians start asking why we are only aiming for 30 or so years normally, Why we aren't building ships over a 40 year period compared to planned 30 year period.

They have systematically shown to be quite simply morons when it comes to manufacturing and the cost curve (Though I'm sure other members can point out easily other area's outside of manufacturing where there 'cost savings' has ended up costing more).

Hate to say it but I'd rather have us lose numbers for a period of time then risk politicians changing up the life span and acquisition schedule we have set.
Agree, life span extension for our now decommissioned destroyers and replenishment ships Is the reason why the RCN is in such dire straits. Pollies here will look for any excuse to postpone defence procurement. The RCAF has the same problem (50 year old SeaKings, P-3s being kept for another 10-15 years, and Hornets...l won't even bother going there!). Determining a best before date and setting a firm replacement date with no deviation is the solution.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Agree, life span extension for our now decommissioned destroyers and replenishment ships Is the reason why the RCN is in such dire straits. Pollies here will look for any excuse to postpone defence procurement. The RCAF has the same problem (50 year old SeaKings, P-3s being kept for another 10-15 years, and Hornets...l won't even bother going there!). Determining a best before date and setting a firm replacement date with no deviation is the solution.
But with the recent launch of the Resolve class AOR, I think Canada has an opportunity to take up the challenge of getting a 2nd (in my opinion - better) ship builder to accelerate refreshing the RCN fleet. Davie has shown to be a quick learner and probably a lot cheaper and more productive than Irving Halifax. Perhaps a collaboration with the RAN in Sea5000 for the National Shipbuilding Strategy could be a quicker way to get things going?
 
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Hazdog

Member
The Royal Navy shared a promotional video on their Facebook page to promote the selection of the Type 26 for SEA 5000. The video is linked below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl89hsSje3E.

It's a good quality video, I challenge someone to be able to count the number of MK41 VLS. I couldn't count them myself and haven't been able to find any definitive numbers.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The Resolve is a ship conversion of an existing ship which is why this project proceeded so quickly. When the National Ship Building Program was conceived, Davie was in receivership so it was not eligible to be selected. They were not the stellar performer for the Halifax class (Irving in Saint John, NB was). I am not very enthusiastic about having Canadian naval ships built in a province that is always threatening to separate from Canada either. Irving's new Halifax operation can at least be evaluated by seeing how the DeWolfe AOPS turns out. If they cluster that up, all options will be on the table including offshore.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The Royal Navy shared a promotional video on their Facebook page to promote the selection of the Type 26 for SEA 5000. The video is linked below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl89hsSje3E.

It's a good quality video, I challenge someone to be able to count the number of MK41 VLS. I couldn't count them myself and haven't been able to find any definitive numbers.
This site mentions 12 VLS for SeaCeptor missiles and a 24 cell MK41 VLS. The missile setup may have some options for other nations considering the Type 26.

Everything You Need To Know About The Royal Navy's New Type 26 Frigates - The Drive
 

Hazdog

Member
This site mentions 12 VLS for SeaCeptor missiles and a 24 cell MK41 VLS. The missile setup may have some options for other nations considering the Type 26.

Everything You Need To Know About The Royal Navy's New Type 26 Frigates - The Drive
Yeah Mate, I'm with you on that... But... I think you are already aware, it would be extremely unlikely for Australia to use SeaCeptor over the ESSM or other Standard missiles. Thus what are the numbers for the Australian Type 26 design?
 

Goknub

Active Member
I'm too much of a cynic to think this lack of information isn't BAE playing for time. A direct replacement of CAMM cells for Mk41 gives it 36 VLS. Combine that with the lack of Harpoon cells and the Type 26 looks under-armed compared to the F-100.

If the Australian proposal makes up the difference it'll be interesting to see where this extra capability gets massaged in.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
The problem with accelerating some of these programs is that the money and spare capacity isn't there. Programs such as building 12 new subs will be spread out over 30 or more years. Australia's new frigate program is intended to deliver a new frigate every 2 or 3 years.

The US has the same problem in that it wants to expand its fleet as quickly as possible. Its answer is will probably be extending the life of its current fleet or reactivating some of its older vessels.

Perhaps as a short term fix Australia could consider the same thing.

The two last built FFGs could serve through to the mid 20s the Anzacs could serve until the mid to late 30s and the Collins subs could probably have their lives extended by another dock cycle.

Agree


Consideration should be given to extending the lives of the last FFGs and the time table of withdrawal of the ANZAC's as the new ASW destroyers hit the water.
There are a lot of juggling balls in the air in the 2020's regarding new OPV's and destroyers coming into service and the geo political dynamics placing demands on maritime capability. A short term fix my see the need for a bigger navy at short notice whose time table is not matched by naval construction.
We will have to work with what we have and some retention of older and still capable vessels may have appeal if things on the horizon look bad.

Even keeping some in a reserve for return to service on a needs basis will not break the bank.

Certainly its not the first time old naval ships have had a second life and contributed to the needs of the day.

Just a thought.


Regards S


PS : I am mindful additional ships need a crew; but of course that is another challenge and conversation.
 
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