Partition as a Strategic Solution?

gf0012-aust

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Do you think this is why ISIS doesn't seem to be a hurry to storm Damascus or push into the more populous areas?
IMO there is no motivation to go into Damascus as a "viz major" - they're happy to stay in areas already under control and build their base

bombing them from expanding is not the same as bombing them "out of existence"

the russians in that sense are far more likely to "go and get them" rather than bomb them when they sally forth etc....
 

Feanor

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IMO there is no motivation to go into Damascus as a "viz major" - they're happy to stay in areas already under control and build their base

bombing them from expanding is not the same as bombing them "out of existence"

the russians in that sense are far more likely to "go and get them" rather than bomb them when they sally forth etc....
I'm a little confused. Are you saying that Russia is more likely to try to bomb them from expanding? Or bomb them out of existence?
 

gf0012-aust

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I'm a little confused. Are you saying that Russia is more likely to try to bomb them from expanding? Or bomb them out of existence?
I'm suggesting that if there is a decision to take the fight to Daesh in their "homeland" then the Russians are probably the only ones prepared to do it

I do think that at this stage the russians are only interested in securing a foothold for ongoing use and needed to do that before Assad was at risk of being removed internally etc....eg the FSA getting into power would jeopardise russian chances to establish etc....
 

Feanor

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I'm suggesting that if there is a decision to take the fight to Daesh in their "homeland" then the Russians are probably the only ones prepared to do it

I do think that at this stage the russians are only interested in securing a foothold for ongoing use and needed to do that before Assad was at risk of being removed internally etc....eg the FSA getting into power would jeopardise russian chances to establish etc....
You don't think the west wants to bomb the ISIS homeland? What exactly is the relationship between the US and ISIS, and Europe and ISIS?
 

gf0012-aust

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You don't think the west wants to bomb the ISIS homeland? What exactly is the relationship between the US and ISIS, and Europe and ISIS?
for me removal in the homeland is about inserting ground forces so that they can't escape.

bombing can delaminate, degrade, deter, destroy to an extent. ground forces are the only ones that can actually go in and limit the chances for them to reform and regroup. its a clearing house issue
 

Feanor

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for me removal in the homeland is about inserting ground forces so that they can't escape.

bombing can delaminate, degrade, deter, destroy to an extent. ground forces are the only ones that can actually go in and limit the chances for them to reform and regroup. its a clearing house issue
Do you think Iranian and Syrian troops could serve as the ground push, with Russia providing air support, intel, some logistical aid, etc.? In other words could Russia use the same model of waging war that they used in Eastern Ukraine?
 

gree0232

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Why do presume that Daesh isn't a monolithic organisation with one leader? All evidence so far and its own teachings suggest that. Their fundamental cause is to form a caliphate with a caliph as it's head all in the name of and to the glory of Allah. That is why they demand that all Moslems in the world swear fealty to them as required by sunni law. You will not sway the extremists and diehards within Daesh by negotiation. They don't give a rats arse about negotiating with the infidel unbelievers except to say convert or die. Like the Borg demand statement "resistance is futile", they don't accept any alternative.

Hence I suggest that your plan to divide and conquer in this case is fatally flawed because your enemy does not conform to the role that you have arbitrarily consigned for them. Orientalism is alive and seemingly well in your assessment of the enemy, another fatal flaw. The only way that you can defeat this enemy is to hasten their exit from this plane if existence.
I suggest you spend some time in the region, and apologize if that comes off as flippant. However, when someone starts mentioning former Baathists, and rejoined is to ignore them ... there is a problem. Additionally, the tribal structures that have long enabled transnational smuggling are quite real and quite well known. Tribes like the Abu Risha Tribe, that turned against Al Qaeda, remain - and I somehow doubt they are any happier with the brutal violence of ISIS than they were with Al Qaeda.

The Problem? The Suna Awakening returned Anbar and other areas to Iraqi government control. That was Shia authority and it was authority that was routinely abused. Offered their own state instead?

Its a possibility worth exploring.

There is also the longer view of history, because, as you do above, we have long done with out adversaries - presented them as a monolithic evil. Yet Kissinger was able to peel away Communist China, and Kennan made a good run at peeling away Tito's Yugoslavia before that monolithic temperament smashed his works.

Again, not talking might be a 'principle', but its a principle that guarantees nothing but more violence until one side fully exterminates the other. Syria? Well, its not WWII, and ISIS may have thousands of fighters, but there are millions of people underneath who should not be exterminated along with ISIS. We can, and indeed should be, talking to them.
 

gree0232

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that has basically been the wests approach prev - ie cut off the financial centres of gravity - and thus Daesh revenue streams.

if you look at the history of daesh, apart from easy idealogical wins where the population wanted to be rid of local and central government - all other attacks have been on centres of revenue production - ie oil generation or a tax base. the tax base issue has grown since the west started knocking out infrastructure central to revenue generation (ie oil etc...)

its also why the turks have been playing a damocles game - porous borders for isis fighters and oil trucks as they wanted assads regime out of the picture - closing off those borders whjen it suited them so as to strangle the kurds - as a kurdish state is even more unpalatable to them than assad. the turks have not seen assad in the same elevated threat model as they believe that as a state on state issue the fight is "easier" to manage. The kurdish state issue is a whole different bucket of political hurt as they don't want the kurds to have a state and thus cause a new centre in the ME.

none of the turkish actions have been focussed on killing daesh - they've spent their mission time on dealing with the PKK.

the US and UK (to some extent) have the albatross of this codependent relatiosnhip that they have with the Saudis where the Saudis have been bankrolling ISIS so as to destabilise assad - and where fundamentally they have an idealogical geostrategic disconnect with the west.

all in all, the MEAO makes the balkans contribution to modern history look like a walk in the park
I think you under-estimate the effects of targeting ISIS finances.

#1 - The Iranian-Syrian-Lebonese transnational smuggling operations are ... ancient. I personally got to see two sides of this network in Diyala and Mosul (One flowing from Iran, the other from Syria). The operators are motivated by profit alone and rely on tribal connections with a management very similar to the mafia. These networks are ingrained, entrenched, and incredibly difficult to police.

#2 - To have any chance of stopping these networks you need a functioning government with a strong, uncorruptable, police force, and none of the Nations involved in this effort have anything even remotely capable on that front.

#3 - It really does not take much to keep ISIS's force going. They captured billions of dollars worth of equipment when the Iraqi Army collapsed. They captured billions more in Syria from other rebel and government groups that collapsed when confronted. The weapons are already there. With porous borders and the inability to check every vehicle and donkey ... the bang is just not worth the buck here.

There is certainly benefits from tackling the finances, but just stopping them is incredible difficult. However, when one of the largest sources of income is the local taxation there isn't much we can do to stop it. We can follow the money. We can find way if hurting ISIS financially, but the group is adaptable and in a region of the world where finance and logistics are extremely fluid and even the best defenses against this reality ... permeable. We face the same problem in Afghanistan with the Taliban, and have had little success.

ISIS will have to be defeated militarily - through a combination of direct attacks and political pressure that pulls away their supporting tribes. When opportunities arise to hurt ISIS's finances, they should be taken ... but with the understanding that the effect is going to be short term rather than long.
 

Muukalainen

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I believe I was misunderstood; I stated that it is an incredibly bad idea to negotiate with DAESH. I am perfectly okay with negotiating with individuals inside of DAESH or affiliated with it, so long as they do not represent it officially. It is necessary to exploit all of its weaknesses to defeat it, which include the flaws in its distributed system of power.
 

gf0012-aust

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I think you under-estimate the effects of targeting ISIS finances. ..........................

ISIS will have to be defeated militarily - through a combination of direct attacks and political pressure that pulls away their supporting tribes. When opportunities arise to hurt ISIS's finances, they should be taken ... but with the understanding that the effect is going to be short term rather than long.
my persistent point on this is that it requires ground forces to eventually clear each pocket

the reason for the west in taking out the major revenue centres of gravity is that there were clear signs coming out associating capture of oil generation facilities etc with follow on major military events in nearby areas - hitting those physical centres of gravity was never the sole military option - its always been a cycle in the options bag - the difficulty for the west has been a reluctance to boot boots on the ground for classical military action such as force on force,. clearing house activity etc.....

in the last few weeks there has been a growing shift towards other nations ramping up on broader air strikes and a greater discussion around the use of ground focrces

Daesh is heavily focussed on generating revenue for fighting the war - eg a lot of people see them blowing up regional holy sites, but don't see the other side of the coin where they are selling off relics for revenue - that has increased since concentric targeting has shown to be effective - so quite a few INT and analysts can see that the Daesh moral compass about a pure interpretation of faith takes second place to the need to get money to pay for the warfighting effort.

in real terms I believe that the russians have accelerated the timeline by engaging as they have... how effective that is remains to be seen - and at some point I would expect to start seeing effects happening on their homeland as their own muslim separatists see this as an opportunity to re-engage. Bear in mind that its the Saudis and GCC who have been bankrolling Daesh in the early stages - and the Saudis won't be too keen to have the Russians re-enabling the Syrians and providing political oxygen to the Iranians
 
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gree0232

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my persistent point on this is that it requires ground forces to eventually clear each pocket

the reason for the west in taking out the major revenue centres of gravity is that there were clear signs coming out associating capture of oil generation facilities etc with follow on major military events in nearby areas - hitting those physical centres of gravity was never the sole military option - its always been a cycle in the options bag - the difficulty for the west has been a reluctance to boot boots on the ground for classical military action such as force on force,. clearing house activity etc.....

in the last few weeks there has been a growing shift towards other nations ramping up on broader air strikes and a greater discussion around the use of ground focrces

Daesh is heavily focussed on generating revenue for fighting the war - eg a lot of people see them blowing up regional holy sites, but don't see the other side of the coin where they are selling off relics for revenue - that has increased since concentric targeting has shown to be effective - so quite a few INT and analysts can see that the Daesh moral compass about a pure interpretation of faith takes second place to the need to get money to pay for the warfighting effort.

in real terms I believe that the russians have accelerated the timeline by engaging as they have... how effective that is remains to be seen - and at some point I would expect to start seeing effects happening on their homeland as their own muslim separatists see this as an opportunity to re-engage. Bear in mind that its the Saudis and GCC who have been bankrolling Daesh in the early stages - and the Saudis won't be too keen to have the Russians re-enabling the Syrians and providing political oxygen to the Iranians
That raises the question: What exactly is the financial 'center of gravity' for ISIS?

It isn't oil.

It isn't relics.

There is no one source of financing that ISIS relies on. There is taxation from the local population, donations that move through the underground support networks, and all manner of smuggling activity (not the least of which is the re-founding of the slave trade). There are ways to put pressure on ISIS, to make things more difficult, but a financial focus is not going to topple ISIS. The borders are too porous, the networks of transnational smuggling too entrenched.

We made the same mistake with the Taliban, believing that their fundng from opium could be cut (it couldn't - not in that corrupt environment) and it would dent the group's effectiveness. That is clearly not the case. Several studies about the financies of the Taliban made this focus disreputable at best, pointing out the larger financial back bone of the group.

I fear there is an element of doing 'something' for teh sake of doing something in this case. Yet the intelligence brew up from CENTCOM is precisely over whether we are having any effect on ISIS whatsoever with this focus.

Will it take ground forces to defeat ISIS? Yes.

The question is whose?

Who will we put in charge?

What system will we put in place to balance the concerns of the various parties?

What do we want Syria to look like when all is said and done?

And those are the questions we have no answers to. We are using military force simply because we don't want ISIS. That does not make a country or solve the dispute that lead to ISIS in the first place.

That is precisely why I advocate partition. Assad and his tribal connections retain a rump Syria. We work with Turkey and Saudi Arabia to get the Nursa front in charge of the Suna sections, and the Kurds retain an autonomous portion of the region.
 
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Twain

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Do you think Iranian and Syrian troops could serve as the ground push, with Russia providing air support, intel, some logistical aid, etc.? In other words could Russia use the same model of waging war that they used in Eastern Ukraine?
Does Syria have enough of an army left to use this approach? Last I read a few months ago, the syrian army was down to less than 1/3 it's prewar size.
 

Feanor

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Does Syria have enough of an army left to use this approach? Last I read a few months ago, the syrian army was down to less than 1/3 it's prewar size.
That's an interesting question. And I think the answer may depend on the effectiveness of Russian and Iranian support. It takes far less troops to deal with an enemy whose supplies and command posts have been thoroughly destroyed. And a smaller number of better trained and better motivated Iranian troops may suffice where a larger number of depleted Syrian units were stationed.

EDIT; I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Russian ground vehicles are being used for fire support, secretly. The MoD has yet to admit to using Mi-24s for CAS, or TOS-1A rocket artillery on the ground (it's unclear who the operators are, it may have simply been handed over to the Syrians, but personally I find that less likely).
 

ngatimozart

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Do you think Russia would be willing to bomb ISIS oil wells? It seems like win-win, doesn't it? Limits supply, drives up the price, starves ISIS for cash, and is relatively easy (they're stationary and known locations).
I think the Russians would be more willing than the west to. I think that they aren't hobbled with the same political scruples, for want of a better term, as the west. However I don't know whether they would be willing to suffer the condemnation that would come from governments and many international environmental groups for the pollution that would be caused. Destroying the wells and associated equipment would certainly contribute towards the strategic goal of defeating Daesh, but the real question would be is that destruction by aerial bombing a price worth paying?

My apologies Feanor for the delay in replying to you.
 

Feanor

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I think the Russians would be more willing than the west to. I think that they aren't hobbled with the same political scruples, for want of a better term, as the west. However I don't know whether they would be willing to suffer the condemnation that would come from governments and many international environmental groups for the pollution that would be caused. Destroying the wells and associated equipment would certainly contribute towards the strategic goal of defeating Daesh, but the real question would be is that destruction by aerial bombing a price worth paying?

My apologies Feanor for the delay in replying to you.
I hadn't considered that. Would there be significant backlash? Just how bad would the environmental damage be? I mean these oil fields are in the middle of the desert.
 

ngatimozart

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I hadn't considered that. Would there be significant backlash? Just how bad would the environmental damage be? I mean these oil fields are in the middle of the desert.
It's political so the west would leap on it. Greenpeace and associated groups would wade in too. Yes, it's desert but there is still an ecosystem there. If the wells were to catch fire you would have uncontrolled burning because Daesh wouldn't have the facilities or expertise to fight and extinguish the fires. The gases and particles produced by a well fire are quite toxic and depending upon the particle size and wind velocity particles could be carried quite a distance. The gases will mix with the atmosphere but again the wind velocity is quite important, because that will determine the distribution across the landscape.
 

Feanor

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It's political so the west would leap on it. Greenpeace and associated groups would wade in too. Yes, it's desert but there is still an ecosystem there. If the wells were to catch fire you would have uncontrolled burning because Daesh wouldn't have the facilities or expertise to fight and extinguish the fires. The gases and particles produced by a well fire are quite toxic and depending upon the particle size and wind velocity particles could be carried quite a distance. The gases will mix with the atmosphere but again the wind velocity is quite important, because that will determine the distribution across the landscape.
I see, thanks for the info. What would be a good way to destroy those oil fields, without these problems? Is there one? Is there a reason the Syrians didn't destroy them when retreating?
 

Ranger25

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I see, thanks for the info. What would be a good way to destroy those oil fields, without these problems? Is there one? Is there a reason the Syrians didn't destroy them when retreating?
Destroy distribution sites, piplines, etc but not the well heads the sleeve perhaps

Perhaps even use penetrators with no warheads or simply send in a small strike team
 

Blackshoe

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Truth be told, the West has been hitting oil wells. I've seen lots of great imagery of before and after strikes.

As far as why more hasn't been done to shut them down, especially by the regime before retreating...one of the primary buyers of Daesh oil...

...is the Assad regime as well as the Kurds.
 

ngatimozart

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Truth be told, the West has been hitting oil wells. I've seen lots of great imagery of before and after strikes.

As far as why more hasn't been done to shut them down, especially by the regime before retreating...one of the primary buyers of Daesh oil...

...is the Assad regime as well as the Kurds.
OK, then maybe the Daesh oil infrastructure has to be well and truly clobbered. The pipelines and pumping stations are fixed and the equipment around the wellheads would be prime targets. In my eyes, they should be priority strikes if I was doing the targeting. It's not as if the western coalition don't have the assets. As long as you don't fire the wells.
 
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