The Future of Britain.

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If either Australia or Canada expressed interest in SSNs I am pretty sure the UK would be there with the Astute
.
I am dead sure that if the RAN ventured anywhere near a SSGN it would be the Virginias and the Astutes wouldn't get a shoe in.
There has been too much invested in changing the Collins combat system replicating that of the Virginias for it to be ignored. The USN has been a strong partner and facilitator for our submariners despite their RN heritage and we wont be regressing!
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I am dead sure that if the RAN ventured anywhere near a SSGN it would be the Virginias and the Astutes wouldn't get a shoe in.
There has been too much invested in changing the Collins combat system replicating that of the Virginias for it to be ignored. The USN has been a strong partner and facilitator for our submariners despite their RN heritage and we wont be regressing!
On the same page here, the Virginias would be a no brainer especially with our existing industry links to Electric Boat. What I was suggesting was if we were to anounce in a future white paper that SSNs were on the cards I do not doubt the UK would make an offer, as would France. That said the US can and has been pretty selective about what technology they offer and to whom, sometimes without any aparent rime or reason, think the F-22 restrictions driven by legislation when the (in many ways more advanced) F-35 is a multinational project.
 

SpartanSG

New Member
Apart from Brazil, where are there real export oppertunities for the Type 26?
I will venture to suggest Malaysia. The Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) currently operates 2 F2000 frigates built by Yarrow (now BAE):

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekiu_class_frigate"]Lekiu class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

These 2 frigates will need replacing in a few years time and that's an opportunity for T26 to make a mark.

The risk however, is that the RMN may decide to go with more MEKOs since they already have a few running around as Offshore Patrol Vessels:

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kedah_class_OPV[/ame]
 

swerve

Super Moderator
With a bit of modernisation, the Lekius are good for quite a while. Launched 1994 & 1995, commissioned 1999. The Kasturi class will need replacing first. They're haing a SLEP, but have been in commission since 1984.

Might a Type 23 style upgrade suit the Lekius? That would, of course, give the option of pulling through the kit eventually, as the RN intends to.

But RMN procurement policy is rather incoherent, like the air force. A requirement for 27 Meko OPVs? Where did that come from? And then they only get six.

I can't help wondering what Singapore intends to do when the Victory class reaches the end of its life. They're large missile boats, with Barak & Harpoon. The Formidable class shows that Singapore is extending its reach. Will it want to extend it further?

Won't happen for a while, though: the Victory class is getting a life extension. 20 years old now.
 

SpartanSG

New Member
With a bit of modernisation, the Lekius are good for quite a while. Launched 1994 & 1995, commissioned 1999. The Kasturi class will need replacing first. They're haing a SLEP, but have been in commission since 1984.

Might a Type 23 style upgrade suit the Lekius? That would, of course, give the option of pulling through the kit eventually, as the RN intends to.

But RMN procurement policy is rather incoherent, like the air force. A requirement for 27 Meko OPVs? Where did that come from? And then they only get six.
There's some talk of the RMN getting 2 more Lekius, kind of like a Batch II to the first pair, but with more updated software and hardware. Time-line wise, if the Batch II Lekius do materialise, it is likely to be before the T26 is ready. So far, there's no word on the modernisation of the 1st pair of Lekius though. I guess that will come later on and BAE should feature somewhere in that modernisation.

As for the 27 Meko OPVs, the 2nd batch of 6 are in progress and they are called Littoral Combat Ships (instead of OPVs). Not sure what's the difference between the 2nd batch and 1st batch though (for the MEKOs).

Nonetheless, given their large expanse of water and disputed claims (including in the Spratlys), the RMN do need a sizeable fleet to patrol their waters.

I can't help wondering what Singapore intends to do when the Victory class reaches the end of its life. They're large missile boats, with Barak & Harpoon. The Formidable class shows that Singapore is extending its reach. Will it want to extend it further?

Won't happen for a while, though: the Victory class is getting a life extension. 20 years old now.
Beats me really. That's crystal-ball gazing and I suppose quite a bit depends on the requirements in the coming years. Although there is a possibility that the Victory class gets replaced by a substantially reworked T26 sometime in the future (much like how the Formidable class is substantially reworked from the La Fayatte)?
 

exported_kiwi

New Member
True, from what i've been reading from pilots operating in the likes of Afghanistan etc it appears that the main benefit of fast air is the massive amounts of ordnance they carry (+ recce assets) rather than strafing ability.

But it's a bit of a tricky issue, have guns or not have guns. If a situation arises where an F-35B should 'need' guns, considering the technology, something's already gone pretty badly wrong.

But of course, this has all been said before with consequences that cost lives. If it were me, i'd buy the things, but i'm not one of the decision makers :(

If I remember correctly, weren't the first F4 Phantoms in USAF service built without guns and they were an unmitigated disaster in a furball so they included a 20mm cannon in consequent models.
Even in this day and age of BVR munitions and so on, there is still a place for an internal gun on modern warplanes, right?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
If I remember correctly, weren't the first F4 Phantoms in USAF service built without guns and they were an unmitigated disaster in a furball so they included a 20mm cannon in consequent models.
Even in this day and age of BVR munitions and so on, there is still a place for an internal gun on modern warplanes, right?
Depends on the way you look at it, I suppose. I don't think the Vietnam example, as frequently as it's brought up, is as valid as it once was. In an age of cooperative engagement, extremely high performance air-to-air missiles/systems, and increasingly miniaturised ground attack munitions, I think a case can be made that an internal gun isn't going to see nearly as much use as in past eras. Certainly as far as air to air combat goes, when you've got helmet-mounted sights, high off-boresight IR missiles, AWACS support and far more effective BVR sensor and weapon systems, I'd have to think the gun would be a weapon of absolute last resort. Sure, if you're out of missiles it'd be good to have, but again, when you've got off-board sensors and you're operating as part of a networked group of aircraft, you have to consider that even if you don't have a shot, it's very possible someone else will. If the target has LO properties that are confounding your missiles then maybe, but then I do wonder how much more luck the gun's targeting system will have with the hostile anyway... gotta aim it with something, after all.

When it comes to air to ground, once again I think it's becoming more of a nice to have rather than a necessity. The smaller precision guided munitions get, the more can be carried, and delivering these weapons is not only more accurate than strafing runs (although I'm sure modern aircraft are by no means slouches in that area), but safer for both friendlies on the ground and for the aircraft itself, which should be able to deliver these munitions at a higher altitude and thus it's more likely to be outside the engagement envelope of AAA/trashfire/VSHORAD missiles. Looking at some of the smaller weapons, starting from the SBD on down to laser-guided 70mm rockets, the Griffon missile, the Viper Strike glide bomb, there's all kinds of bits and pieces available for low-collateral ground attack.

I've always erred on the side of caution and considered a gun to be something I'd rather an aircraft have and not need than need and not have, but with ongoing advances in technology I'd say it's very much more of an optional extra than it once was. I mean how long were the Harriers operating in Afghanistan without guns... they seemed to do alright... and from a fighter vs fighter perspective I don't know when was the last time guns were a deciding factor in an engagement (wouldn't surprise me if it was the Israelis, they've got quite a history of effective air-to-air gunnery).

Does the proliferation of LO technologies change the equation? Possibly. It certainly opens the potential for aircraft to have more close encounters with one another. But again, on that kind of high-technology battlefield I don't know if guns would play a major part in the overall outcome of the air war.

Anyway, I'm rambling, apologies :)
 

exported_kiwi

New Member
Depends on the way you look at it, I suppose. I don't think the Vietnam example, as frequently as it's brought up, is as valid as it once was. In an age of cooperative engagement, extremely high performance air-to-air missiles/systems, and increasingly miniaturised ground attack munitions, I think a case can be made that an internal gun isn't going to see nearly as much use as in past eras. Certainly as far as air to air combat goes, when you've got helmet-mounted sights, high off-boresight IR missiles, AWACS support and far more effective BVR sensor and weapon systems, I'd have to think the gun would be a weapon of absolute last resort. Sure, if you're out of missiles it'd be good to have, but again, when you've got off-board sensors and you're operating as part of a networked group of aircraft, you have to consider that even if you don't have a shot, it's very possible someone else will. If the target has LO properties that are confounding your missiles then maybe, but then I do wonder how much more luck the gun's targeting system will have with the hostile anyway... gotta aim it with something, after all.

When it comes to air to ground, once again I think it's becoming more of a nice to have rather than a necessity. The smaller precision guided munitions get, the more can be carried, and delivering these weapons is not only more accurate than strafing runs (although I'm sure modern aircraft are by no means slouches in that area), but safer for both friendlies on the ground and for the aircraft itself, which should be able to deliver these munitions at a higher altitude and thus it's more likely to be outside the engagement envelope of AAA/trashfire/VSHORAD missiles. Looking at some of the smaller weapons, starting from the SBD on down to laser-guided 70mm rockets, the Griffon missile, the Viper Strike glide bomb, there's all kinds of bits and pieces available for low-collateral ground attack.

I've always erred on the side of caution and considered a gun to be something I'd rather an aircraft have and not need than need and not have, but with ongoing advances in technology I'd say it's very much more of an optional extra than it once was. I mean how long were the Harriers operating in Afghanistan without guns... they seemed to do alright... and from a fighter vs fighter perspective I don't know when was the last time guns were a deciding factor in an engagement (wouldn't surprise me if it was the Israelis, they've got quite a history of effective air-to-air gunnery).

Does the proliferation of LO technologies change the equation? Possibly. It certainly opens the potential for aircraft to have more close encounters with one another. But again, on that kind of high-technology battlefield I don't know if guns would play a major part in the overall outcome of the air war.

Anyway, I'm rambling, apologies :)

Would an internal gun not be effective against soft targets like tankers and transports? Why waste expensive AAMs against such soft targets?
This, of course, presupposes that such targets aren't escorted by combat aircraft.
 

Cailet

Member
Would an internal gun not be effective against soft targets like tankers and transports? Why waste expensive AAMs against such soft targets?
This, of course, presupposes that such targets aren't escorted by combat aircraft.
Pretty much answered your own question there. If the enemy can't or won't defend their AWACS/Tankers/Transports then the F-35 could just fly in front of it pumping exhaust straight into the target's engines until it stalls if they wanted.

Realistically, any asset without the ability to defend itself will either be escorted or grounded except in the most desperate of circumstances* and while AAMs are hardly cheap, they have a high kill probability (possibly higher than a gun pass would have but I'm not privy to that kind of detail) and they offer much more flexibility in how you engage a target. If nothing else, a Meteor (which I presume will be the F-35's primary AA weapon in British service) could be launched from over 50 miles away, saving you the need to fly the hundred mile+ round-trip to get into gun range and back again and wouldn't expose the launching aircraft nearly as much.

EDIT: I am generally in favour of retaining the gun on fighter aircraft as a multipurpose tool but the western operational concept leaves it with little use outside 'last ditch' or exceedingly improbable scenarios. It is possible that we will see a future Vietnam that exposes the omission of cannon as a fatal mistake but the key reasons why it was a mistake in Vietnam - the ROE and low PK of the early missiles in particular - do not apply nearly as much today. With the massive strides missile technology has taken since the 70's (even ignoring the improvements in information technology) these issues have been largely obviated.

*And I imagine a pilot's reaction to an apparently unescorted tanker appearing on their sensors would be to expect a trap and to avoid exposing themselves to an ambush, not to dive into gun range.
 

exported_kiwi

New Member
Pretty much answered your own question there. If the enemy can't or won't defend their AWACS/Tankers/Transports then the F-35 could just fly in front of it pumping exhaust straight into the target's engines until it stalls if they wanted.

Realistically, any asset without the ability to defend itself will either be escorted or grounded except in the most desperate of circumstances* and while AAMs are hardly cheap, they have a high kill probability (possibly higher than a gun pass would have but I'm not privy to that kind of detail) and they offer much more flexibility in how you engage a target. If nothing else, a Meteor (which I presume will be the F-35's primary AA weapon in British service) could be launched from over 50 miles away, saving you the need to fly the hundred mile+ round-trip to get into gun range and back again and wouldn't expose the launching aircraft nearly as much.

EDIT: I am generally in favour of retaining the gun on fighter aircraft as a multipurpose tool but the western operational concept leaves it with little use outside 'last ditch' or exceedingly improbable scenarios. It is possible that we will see a future Vietnam that exposes the omission of cannon as a fatal mistake but the key reasons why it was a mistake in Vietnam - the ROE and low PK of the early missiles in particular - do not apply nearly as much today. With the massive strides missile technology has taken since the 70's (even ignoring the improvements in information technology) these issues have been largely obviated.

*And I imagine a pilot's reaction to an apparently unescorted tanker appearing on their sensors would be to expect a trap and to avoid exposing themselves to an ambush, not to dive into gun range.

RE; your last paragraph, AWACs would surely "smell" a trap before an ambush, if it was present, no?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Mail Online are running a series of blogs (six parts) about the UK defence cuts and where the money is. There's money for defence; there always was ~ Part 3 - Mail Online - William Forbes' blog. This is part 3 and it has links back to the first two. It is worth a read and the last part should be published Tiuseday or Wednesday. It details "The System" and pollies incopmtetence plus the bureaucracy. I'm not making any comments until after the sixth part is published.
 

explorer9

New Member
The Mail Online are running a series of blogs (six parts) about the UK defence cuts and where the money is. There's money for defence; there always was ~ Part 3 - Mail Online - William Forbes' blog. This is part 3 and it has links back to the first two. It is worth a read and the last part should be published Tiuseday or Wednesday. It details "The System" and pollies incopmtetence plus the bureaucracy. I'm not making any comments until after the sixth part is published.
Thanks for sharing the link, yes it is a worth read.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
If the Type 26 can hit it off in terms of exportability, then it'll be a brilliant turn for the UK defence industry. Personally i'm glad that BAE has appreciated the point that the GCS should be exactly what the "G" means; global. It needs to be offered with a variety of weapons for a variety of tasks, if it doesn't then it'll be a flop. If it gets orders for Brazil then that might be enough for Australia/New Zealand to get their foot in the door.

IMO every project the UK does from this point on should have an eye on modularity, upgradability + exportability then aim to try to show just how much value-for-money you can get out of the vessel.

Hell, at one stage we even had the Saudis thinking about buying a pair of Type 45 destroyers so we must be going something right if we got a mild amount of interest in an incredibly expensive vessel.

Hopefully the MHPC should be able to reel in some export orders. Part of me really wishes BAE wanted to take on the MARS contract too.
 

shaun

New Member
Just read the daily mail blog very funny but very true I worked in both varients of tornados and the jaguar give me jags any day although the f3 was finally finding its feet once the networking software was installed only twenty Yeats late. Typhoon was euro fighter 2000 when I first joined the RAF lol basically it had to be multi role or the project was getting scrapped and their were serious questions over whether British aerospace as they were then could give us a good plane on their own so multi role was invented to save the project. As a fighter apperentky when I speak to mates still in the RAF it fantastic all the pilots rave about it but its multi role spurs are a long way from been earned. Basically for the last 30 years the British Govt hasgot away from giving the RAF a good airframe by the training of the pilots and ground crew.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As far as I can recall from my time on exchange, we (RN) only described the Tornado by its one really good attribute. It was universally referred to as the "flying radar reflector".
 

shaun

New Member
Sounds about right given enough protection the GR4 was a good bit of kit butbthat was the problem no protection plane struggled. mind you the parts about a nimrod are true all the SNCO,s said it was wrong and that a new airframe should be bought that we could retrofit with the good avionic suites rumour was it was political face saving but surely Wharton could have built the airframes under license if was that important. Typical I hear they are trying to look at reconfiguring the sentinel's radar to bring back some of the capability I don't know how true that is though.
 

shaun

New Member
As far as I can recall from my time on exchange, we (RN) only described the Tornado by its one really good attribute. It was universally referred to as the "flying radar reflector".
Guess you miss the harriers irony was the harrier and the Jaguar shared a lot of similar kit and both did their jobs very well.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
All the existing Nimrod airframes differed in various ways from one another, to the extent they were almost handbuilt - realistically, the cheapest way forward for MRA4 would have been to go for new build throughout, given that they had new wings and needed new bodies.

But of course, if that'd been asked for, someone would have just ordered P8 or whatever,


Ian
 

shaun

New Member
All the existing Nimrod airframes differed in various ways from one another, to the extent they were almost handbuilt - realistically, the cheapest way forward for MRA4 would have been to go for new build throughout, given that they had new wings and needed new bodies.

But of course, if that'd been asked for, someone would have just ordered P8 or whatever,


Ian
As they should have done its a capability the UK will never be able to fully regenerate sometimes the UK public need to be told the truth what can and cannot be achieved by British industry with out political band standing.
 
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