The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
No one would like to see a proper Navy air group on the CVF's more than me. However other than money, many serious problems remain.

At the moment the Royal Navy has trouble standing up two nine-plane GR.9 squadrons for lack of pilot attack instructors. (hence the consolidated Naval Strike Wing) It is highly unlikely that this situation will change any time soon.

Initially the CVF's will operate with GR.9's.. so the same problems of aircraft availability experienced now with the Invincible's will be carried over to the CVF's.

According to F35 delivery schedules quoted on Beedall's by 2018 the Royal Navy should have somewhere between 60 - 80 F35B's. (The same number as they currently have GR.9's) So for the first couple of years at least the CVF's will defenitely not have air groups up to the strength we would like to see.

The government would have to put up some serious money to change all this in the 2020's..
I agree totally that this is the reality of the present situation.

What I want to see is a real effort made to at least begin to redress the decline in the FAA and rebuild it for the 2020s and beyond. Of course that will cost money but surely the money spent on the CVFs will be largely wasted if it is not done!

If the government waits until the new carriers enter service before it discovers that the deployed airgroups are not much bigger than those that went to sea on the Invincibles three decades previously and then decides to do something about it, the new carriers could spend half (or more) of their service lives with woefully under strength airgroups, in the same way that Illustrious struggled along during more than half of her service in WW2.

I can understand that the RN does not want to make too much noise about this issue until the construction program is so far advanced that it is irreversible as it wants to ensure that the ships are definitely built but the restoration of the FAA needs to begin soon.

Tas
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There ahs been alot of talk about paying-0ff(decommissioning) the four Type 22 Batch III frigates. But spending this about of money (20 million pounds = to about $40m?) would seem to prclude this dont you think?
Anyway:
HMS Cumberland Rejoins Fleet
London February 21, 2008 - HMS Cumberland was accepted back into the Fleet Scheduling Authority on Friday 8th February 2008. Having successfully completing a 15 month, £20 million refit and regeneration package the main focus been upon improvements to the operating capability through upgrades to the weapon systems and sensors and the propulsion system overhaul. As a result of ‘in project savings’ there was also allowance for upgrading the habitability of crew living and recreational messes resulting in a heightened ‘pride of ownership’ from the entire Ship’s company.
The Fleet Date Inspection is the final formal inspection on completion of the refit period and allows the Ship to make the transition back into operational service. The complex engineering tasks have been achieved ahead of schedule and within budget, which has allowed the Ship’s staff to apply the final polish prior to inspection. Both inspecting officers; Captain Surface Ships, Devonport Flotilla, Captain C Hamp Royal Navy, and Chief Staff Officer (Engineering) to CINCFLEET (CSOE), Captain A D Penny Royal Navy, have served in Cumberland previously and commented on the high materiel state of the Ship and the professionalism and enthusiasm of the Ship’s company. This has been reflected in both the final outcome of the refit and the success of the trials program that have led to this point.
The inspection saw 2 separate teams inspect the entire Ship. Personnel responsible for the respective compartments presented their areas to an exceptionally high standard of materiel readiness and cleanliness. This gave the inspecting teams chance to examine the state of the Ship and to talk to the full range of personnel in every department. The Commanding Officer, Commander P J Sparkes Royal Navy, the officers and Ship’s company of HMS Cumberland now look forward to the demanding program of Operational Sea Training in preparations for future Operations.
Captain Hamp said:
"I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to HMS Cumberland today. The Ship was presented to a very high standard by a motivated and enthusiastic Ship’s company which reflects the firm Command Direction, sound management and strong team spirit that has been generated through the Upkeep period. There is a genuine sense of pride in the Upkeep and Capability upgrades achieved. It is clear that Cumberland has received a very satisfactory Upkeep period and that she is ready for the forthcoming challenge of preparing for and completing Operational Training.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Definitively hang on to those end of the 80s large FFGs. With no replacement in sight it would be outlandish to retire them even if some million pounds could be retrieved by selling them to Brazil (I imagine Chile has finished its collection of Ex European FFGs...)

cheers
 

ROCK45

New Member
Navy's aircraft carriers face delay

* Hope this wasn't posted already I didn't see it anywhere. Can somebody tell me the basic defensive weapons that are planned or might be used for these ships? Anti-air & anti-ship
thanks
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
:)


Navy's aircraft carriers face delay
By Sylvia Pfeifer, Defence Industries Correspondent

Published: February 21 2008 02:00 | Last updated: February 21 2008 02:00

The construction of the Royal Navy's two aircraft carriers could be delayed by up to 12 months as the Ministry of Defence faces an estimated budget shortfall of £2bn over the next three years.

One of the recommendations presented to senior defence officials and service chiefs yesterday was that the MoD agree a manufacturing contract with the industry alliance building the ships within weeks but delay construction.

If the government goes ahead with the plan, it would set alarm bells ringing in Britain's shipyards. The yards have been hiring in anticipation of the £4bn project and could have to lay off key workers.

Sources close to the talks believe that by agreeing the contract the MoD would be able to limit any political fallout from subsequent delays.

Signing the contract now would also allow the shipbuilding joint venture between BAE Systems and VT Group to go ahead. The two companies have been poised to agree the project for several weeks but have been waiting for the green light from government.

BAE said: "Negotiations regarding the proposed joint venture with VT are at an advanced stage . . . The signature of the joint venture agreements is also dependent upon the signature of contracts for the aircraft carriers and we are working closely with the MoD to ensure that these are placed as soon as possible."

Additional reporting by Alex Barker
 

davros

New Member
I am not happy at all with the current budget a £2bn short fall is not a massive amount they should just increase the budget by a bit and get the carriers built. The Americans have from what i know already started cutting steal for the Gerald R. Ford which is due to be in service by 2015 so are new carriers have not got a chance of being in service by 2015, and to be honest i wouldn't be surprised if they were canceled in the end.
 

Jon K

New Member
I am not happy at all with the current budget a £2bn short fall is not a massive amount they should just increase the budget by a bit and get the carriers built. The Americans have from what i know already started cutting steal for the Gerald R. Ford which is due to be in service by 2015 so are new carriers have not got a chance of being in service by 2015, and to be honest i wouldn't be surprised if they were canceled in the end.
That would be really cruel but would make political sense; First, deep cuts to RN to fund new carriers. Second step is to discover that there's no money to actually have air wings on said carriers and there's no sufficient escorts for them even if by some miracle there's money for air wings.. Third step is to cancel the CV(F)'s altogether but not to repair damage done for the rest of the RN.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Every year for the last several there have been cuts. I don't have any idea why anyone thinks this would be the end.

Analysts have been warning for years there would only be 6 Type 45s. Guess what, they were probably right.

Analysts have been warning for years there would be a reduction in Astute class submarines built. Guess what, they were probably right.

Analysts have been warning for years the Type 22s would be probably be retired early. Guess what, they were probably right.

Why would anyone believe this short list is the end of cuts? The CVF is probably next. They play the same game every year, they float a list of cuts, only cut one thing on the list, then float another list the next year, and repeat the process... every year. Soon everything that has been on the list will be cut, which is why the CVF is on the list but has been "delayed", after all, it needs to still be on the list when it is time for it to be cut.

That French espionage probably didn't help the CVF program.
 

ASFC

New Member
Exactly, for years........

Anyone remember that report in the Sunday Times (iirc) about the navy being cut by half. It was about two years ago and they expected it in three months. Guess what, it never happened.

The problem is that the MOD like to carry out lots of paper exercises about 'what ifs' (especially where money is concerned). Then these things get leaked to the press, and the excrement hits the air conditioning and doom and gloom is predicted whilst these 'leaked reports' then fuel analysts theorys about the end of the Royal Navy.

When I see something concrete come out of the MOD, then i will worry.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What French espionage do you mean?
Maybe they mean the fact the our neighbors across the narrow channel, tried to buy in on the idea & have a 3rd ship built, but as is the usual, the French will want to change the layout to suit say the Rafel....

...either that or it's issues with Thales??


who knows....

Systems Adict
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
The Secret Service found "French looking" bugs in Lord Drayson's offices in the MoD and parliarment during a regular security check.
revenge for CDG;)
to get back for spying on their carrier program.

Galran you can chose to disagree with Gorden Brown in regards to the carriers as he has vowed that no program will be cut and there may be delay [unlikely as Brown would have even more trouble from the ex admarials and officers who talk to the papers]. also the contracts seem to indicate oppaist to these mythical cuts which have been rumored from the day this thread opened. but what have seen the start of MARS the signing of the CVF the contracts for CVF. upgrade for Frigerts, LPH. launch of T45 and comments by the defense minster that 8 T45 are on the books and lastly long leads 7 Astute class vessels. I will admit that C1,C2,C3 program needs to defined but i believe it will be sorted out there is plenty of time. I would be more worried about your own back yard. The huge price increase of the LCS than worrying about little old england
 
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harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
* Hope this wasn't posted already I didn't see it anywhere. Can somebody tell me the basic defensive weapons that are planned or might be used for these ships? Anti-air & anti-ship
thanks
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
:)


Navy's aircraft carriers face delay
By Sylvia Pfeifer, Defence Industries Correspondent

Published: February 21 2008 02:00 | Last updated: February 21 2008 02:00

The construction of the Royal Navy's two aircraft carriers could be delayed by up to 12 months as the Ministry of Defence faces an estimated budget shortfall of £2bn over the next three years.

One of the recommendations presented to senior defence officials and service chiefs yesterday was that the MoD agree a manufacturing contract with the industry alliance building the ships within weeks but delay construction.

If the government goes ahead with the plan, it would set alarm bells ringing in Britain's shipyards. The yards have been hiring in anticipation of the £4bn project and could have to lay off key workers.

Sources close to the talks believe that by agreeing the contract the MoD would be able to limit any political fallout from subsequent delays.

Signing the contract now would also allow the shipbuilding joint venture between BAE Systems and VT Group to go ahead. The two companies have been poised to agree the project for several weeks but have been waiting for the green light from government.

BAE said: "Negotiations regarding the proposed joint venture with VT are at an advanced stage . . . The signature of the joint venture agreements is also dependent upon the signature of contracts for the aircraft carriers and we are working closely with the MoD to ensure that these are placed as soon as possible."

Additional reporting by Alex Barker
please put a link in the arcticial as i don't know where its from and its verasitiy.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Very strange this story on spying, French newspapers haven't mentioned anything while at least some papers love to underline mishaps with the security apparatus and the current government's actions.

I think the CVFs are way too visible and symbolic to be cut in any way, but the RN will suffer in all the other domains because of financing these behemoths. T45s, new FFGs, number of Astute SSNs. Those programmes are lower visibility ones for the general public.
Same thing in France, a 2nd carrier will certainly somehow be built, especially for prestige reasons. But several other programmes will suffer. By the way a defence review has been expected for some time now but still no news.

cheers
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I dont know what sources have " veracity"( Correct spelling BTW)for Sir Harry Her Majesty's Master Speller, Puncuationist and Defender of the Realm from nefarious Americans. But I did find these articles recently.
But I am sure Sir Harry the know-it-all (or is it kow-nothing-at-all?) has inside info(or at least the Sir Harry approved politically-correct Sources) he will share with us. Whether we can understand his screwed up writing is another issue. No excuses please Ive heard them all in the past.:

Lovely new aircraft carrier, sir, but we’re fighting in the desert

Money is squandered on equipment that is useless in either Iraq or Afghanistan - or in any foreseeable theatre

Simon Jenkins


While Lord Justice Scott Baker officiates each week at the Diana inquest benefit gala for tabloid lawyers at the Royal Courts of Justice, a more poignant inquest is enacted in the leafy lanes of Oxfordshire. The bodies of servicemen killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are brought here to Brize Norton airbase and their families are consoled with the brief dignity of an “unlawful killing” verdict.
Here, too, incredulous coroners hear tales of ill-prepared, underequipped soldiers stumbling back from what might be a modern Crimea.
They hear of failed helicopters, unguarded vehicles, lack of body armour and poor medical support. “Unforgivable and inexcusable . . . a breach of trust” were words used of the defence ministry by Andrew Walker, the coroner, last week after another tale of woe.
Britain’s military establishment is plunged into battle over what has been dubbed its “train crash” budget. The Treasury has demanded £1 billion a year in cuts to amend for what appears to be grotesque cost indiscipline. Every lobby has been summoned to the colours: defence correspondents, retired generals, MPs for army constituencies and the Royal United Services Institute. The blood-stained shrouds of Brize Norton are waved across Whitehall.
What is clear is that this government made a colossal error on coming to power in 1997-8. In the Strategic Defence Review (on whose lay committee I served), George Robertson, the then defence secretary, and John Reid and John Gilbert, his junior ministers, flatly refused an open discussion. Having been told to “think the unthinkable”, the review’s authors were told that the three biggest and most contentious procurement items inherited from the Tories were sacred.
They were the Eurofighter project (£15-£20 billion), the new aircraft carriers (£4 billion) and their frigate escorts, and a replacement for the Trident missile and its submarines (£20 billion). These pet projects of the Royal Navy and RAF were protected so new Labour would not appear soft on defence. There was no consideration given to the equipment needs of Tony Blair’s more interventionist foreign policy. The government decided, in effect, to pretend that it was still fighting the Russians (and possibly the Germans).
Those decisions locked the procurement budget for more than a decade. Above all they shut out the army, on which British defence activity has depended ever since. The army’s unglamorous but urgent need for battlefield helicopters and armoured personnel carriers was ignored. So, too, were supplies of such things as grenade launchers, field radios, body armour and night-vision equipment. This year the Eurofighter, carrier and Trident projects all came on stream at £5 billion annually between them and the defence budget has hit the predictable wall.
The first to howl are the chiefs of staff. It is customary at such times for them to stand as one, arms linked like Roman legions in a square. Yet they will never adjudicate on priorities. An admiral will not doubt (in public) the RAF’s need for more jet fighters. A general will never question the need for carriers. An air marshal will cast no aspersions on Trident. All they will do is sing in unison, “No defence cuts”.
Nor do ministers dare to take painful decisions for them. Every cut is across the board. Gordon Brown has let it be known that there must be no talk of cancellations, only postponements. Carriers may be delayed, Astute-class submarines may be reduced from eight to four and Type 45 destroyers from 12 to six. The number of Eurofighter Typhoons on order may be slashed. Strategy can go to the wall but not politics. As one sceptic said last week, “The chiefs have planned to go on fighting the Russians, but to lose.”
During the apartheid regime in South Africa I had a contact in the state arms manufacturer, Armscor, who constantly sang the praises of sanctions. He said, “They have stopped the chiefs of staff from buying glamour kit they don’t need, such as ships and planes, and forced them to develop stuff they do.” South Africa duly made the best field artillery gun in the world (the 155mm G5), the best armoured vehicles (Ratel and Eland) and the best desert boots.
Every debate over British military equipment veers off into chauvinism, into “sovereignty of supply”, British jobs and political image. That is why the army must wait until 2011 for a new flight of British-built Lynx helicopters (at £14m each) instead of buying the bigger American Sikorsky (at £6m) available this year. How many men will die for this crass decision?
As Lewis Page, a former naval officer, claims in his book Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs, the defence ministry probably spends two to three times overall what it needs for its equipment. It admits that landing ships are running at 80% over the original price. The biggest current excesses are on Type 45 destroyers and nuclear submarines. More than 10% of the defence budget goes on such procurement overruns. There is the crisis in a nutshell.
It is perhaps no surprise that Lord Drayson, the procurement minister, recently vanished to become a racing driver rather than try to reform a system in which nobody accepts accountability or blame for the most scandalous mismanagement. Weak ministers adhere to the principle of letting each service have its share of expensive kit, because anything else would mean an almighty row.
The old Spanish practices are still in place: Buggins’ turn between army, navy and air force as chief of the defence staff, a comfortable overseas attaché network and uniformed officers shadowing Whitehall civil servants. According to Page there are still more admirals ashore than ships afloat, more air marshals than squadrons aloft.
Britain is still buying weapons of little or no relevance. Carriers, destroyers, frigates and submarines date from the days of food convoys and empire. Interceptor jets are fighting the battle of Britain. Every modern British war is fought by the army (even the Falklands), for which the navy and air force should be refashioned as subordinate services.
The reason this does not happen, in Britain as in America, was well stated in “Kagan’s law”. When the military is asked if it wants more soldiers or a new plane and is told it must choose one, it always chooses the plane. A large item of kit does not talk, lives in a hangar, takes longer to deliver (and pay for) and has fancier lobbyists. Hence there is always upward pressure on naval and air spending and downward pressure on the poor bloody infantry.
The latest version of Labour’s interventionism, adumbrated by David Miliband, involves offering “security guarantees” to unstable democratic regimes to protect them from insurgency. Such wars do not require carriers, nuclear submarines or jet fighters. They require the one thing the government puts lowest on its priority list, a well equipped and highly mobile army.
That army, undermanned and ill equipped, is now engaged in the government’s service in Iraq and Afghanistan. When a British soldier deploys to the front, his or her family receives a letter from the defence secretary promising that he has taken “all measures possible to ensure that the equipment issued to the UK armed forces is both right for the job and right for them”.
This is simply not true. To take one example, a recent article in the Journal of the Royal Army Medical Corps pointed out that British troops were taking longer to get to a field hospital than it took the Americans in Vietnam. Two hours’ delay in Iraq has become seven hours in Helmand. This often fatal delay is almost entirely due to the lack of helicopters, caused by a shortage not of money but of ministry competence.
The British Army is fighting in two countries against forces whose equipment is primitive and who have never posed any military threat to Britain. In both it is losing. Money is squandered on equipment that is useless in either theatre - or in any foreseeable one. For want of that money, equipment vital to victory is forgone.
In a sane world this might be cause for a revision of priorities within the defence establishment. Instead, the brass hats continue to squabble to protect their precious toys and politicians lack the guts to bang their heads together.
It was the sort of thing that made the Iron Duke weep
- [email protected]


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/simon_jenkins/article3423663.ece

Naval base at Plymouth to close within five years

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(24-Feb-2008 03:00:09)

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Naval base at Plymouth to close within five years

Michael Smith

BRITAIN'S oldest naval base at Plymouth will close within five years with the Royal Navy's submarines moving to Faslane in Scotland, senior defence sources said this weekend.
The base at Devonport from which Drake set sail to destroy the Spanish Armada and Cook embarked to discover Australia will have five of its frigates axed in defence cuts expected within weeks. Its expertise in refuelling and refitting nuclear submarines has become irrelevant because the new Astute submarines will have nuclear cores that last for the life of the vessel.
With only two of the navy's existing nuclear submarines still requiring mid-life servicing, both naval and industry sources said last week that the dockyard had no long-term future.
The dockyards will therefore be allowed to wither on the vine in favour of Portsmouth and Rosyth, in the Firth of Forth - despite assurances from Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Des Browne, the defence secretary, that the dockyard had a future.
A review of the navy's three bases (Plymouth, Portsmouth and Rosyth) had been expected to result in the closure of Plymouth or Portsmouth. Browne told MPs in July that the review had ended with a decision to keep all three dockyards open along with the submarine base at Faslane, on the Scottish west coast, but this weekend sources challenged this assertion.
They said Devonport's future would be nonexistent once the last two Vanguard submarines were refuelled in 2012. The axing of the five frigates will leave Plymouth with just nine surface ships and seven Trafalgar-class submarines, which will be replaced by the Astute submarines based at Faslane. Its six remaining frigates and three amphibious ships will be moved to Portsmouth, a senior naval source said.
"All that Plymouth will have will be the rusting hulks of the Trafalgar and Swiftsure class, which will be decommissioned slowly over the next five years as the Astute class comes into service," he added.
Gary Streeter, Conservative MP for Devon South West, said: "When the naval base review took place we thought it was a two-horse race. We have somehow managed to come third. There is a great anxiety now that we will suffer a death by a thousand cuts."
Naval and industry sources suggested Browne's dual role as defence and Scottish secretary, and the fact that many Rosyth workers live in Brown's constituency counted against Plymouth.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3423421.ece
 

Alpha Epsilon

New Member
T45s, new FFGs, number of Astute SSNs. Those programmes are lower visibility ones for the general public.
Astutes are save imo, long lead items have been ordered for 7 in total so far and they need that or more to build the Trident successor submarines in the UK which is a political certainty in my opinion. 6 T45s are on order, T45 7&8 might be a target, we'll see. A lot of new FFGs aren't needed for a while with 13 T23s being upgraded massively with new radar, sonar, upgraded gun, missile upgrade, etc... .

Speaking of the upgrade, I read that the MoD will choose the Artisan 3D radar for CVFs, 13 T23s, HMS Ocean, 2 Albions and 2 shore facilities. Also the first design studies by BAE Systems have been delivered to the MoD for the Trident submarine successor.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
They are obviously confident Scottish independence is not going to happen for a long long time.
Then they are idiots, I believe Scottish independance will come out very quickly, more fool them (the Scotts) as an independant Scotland would surely still need fairly large handouts from the UK to survive.
 
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