You are not going to engage a IFV with 100mm HE at 4000 meters, anti tank projectile yes, HE or 30mm no way.
Calibre of the IFV gun
- Thread starter Mangusta CBT
- Start date
But for the 100mm there are only two rounds [3UOF17 (HE-FRAG), HEF/MOD.96 (HE-FRAG)] and the 3UBK10 ATGM family in service.
And for sure you don't want to attack a good armored enemy IFV with a HE-FRAG which has a V0 of just 250 m/s, especially not at big ranges.
Hoping for destroying some optics?
And forget about hitting anything which is moving at that distances. Not with such a slow speed.
For engaging armored targets at big ranges the BMP-3 should use its ATGMs.
And for sure you don't want to attack a good armored enemy IFV with a HE-FRAG which has a V0 of just 250 m/s, especially not at big ranges.
Hoping for destroying some optics?
And forget about hitting anything which is moving at that distances. Not with such a slow speed.
For engaging armored targets at big ranges the BMP-3 should use its ATGMs.
With the new HE projectile for LEO, what is the max range that German Tankers are trained to engage targets at.
It is still 4000m.
The FCS still only uses ranges up to 4000m like your older ones (I think since M1A2 the 4km border os no more).
I have no idea why they didn't change this during the upgrading of the FCS from A4 to A5/A6.
Rheinmetall claims that the new HE has an effective range up to 5km and I have no idea why they don't open the software for that range.
Seems like they learned nothing out of ODS and OIF like you did (Ok, on the other hand you have no proper HE ).
The FCS still only uses ranges up to 4000m like your older ones (I think since M1A2 the 4km border os no more).
I have no idea why they didn't change this during the upgrading of the FCS from A4 to A5/A6.
Rheinmetall claims that the new HE has an effective range up to 5km and I have no idea why they don't open the software for that range.
Seems like they learned nothing out of ODS and OIF like you did (Ok, on the other hand you have no proper HE
).That is of course true, 100mm is not for hitting moving targets. It can hit only stationary objects - the claimed max range is the same 7000+ m. But its much better than tank gun for hitting close objects behind obstacles as it can use mortar fire (in fact, it is default operation mode for the gun). That is a big advantage compared to tank gun. Also, KBP advertise what upgraded FCS & missiles can hit up to 5500m.
P.S. Still, 100mm MG on BMP-3 can be used to hit moving targets under 1km with resonable effectivity.
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HA HAIt is still 4000m.
The FCS still only uses ranges up to 4000m like your older ones (I think since M1A2 the 4km border os no more).
I have no idea why they didn't change this during the upgrading of the FCS from A4 to A5/A6.
Rheinmetall claims that the new HE has an effective range up to 5km and I have no idea why they don't open the software for that range.
Seems like they learned nothing out of ODS and OIF like you did (Ok, on the other hand you have no proper HE
- you would think after a few years of fighting that someone would realize that we could use a round like this, versus a glorified heat round.It seems that a mix would be good, if you can get them all on the same chassis.
For example, in a group of 36, I would like 6 with 100-120mm mortars, 4-8 with AA-capable guns & missles, and they rest with 25-40mm guns & ATGMs.
BTW- a 25mm can penetrate 54mm of armor with depleted uranium rounds (you didn't hear that from me ), can a Puma withstand that?
For example, in a group of 36, I would like 6 with 100-120mm mortars, 4-8 with AA-capable guns & missles, and they rest with 25-40mm guns & ATGMs.
BTW- a 25mm can penetrate 54mm of armor with depleted uranium rounds (you didn't hear that from me
), can a Puma withstand that?The elevation for BMP3 is -6 degrees in depression and 60 degrees in elevation, did Russia not design a 120mm thats a gun/mortar combo carried on the BMD chassis, Russian doctrine states for BMP 3 infantry HE support is with in 2000 meters and thats for infantry positions and structures, cannon is used for IFVs and helicopters, 100mm laser guided anti armor round would give you the extended range. I have fired HEP 105 mm rounds at 2500 meters and they are so slow that you can fire it from the gunners position on a tank and climb up to the TC`s position and watch it land/impact.
Of course its not APFSDS, but common TOW round also require pretty long time to reach its target. And any way you see it, its much better to make "boom" in 30 sec from 100mm than to wait god knows how long till your army true artillery will help or bombers will reach its target. Besides, there is no choice anyway. Right now there are no weapon what can shot at 2000-7000m faster than gun/mortar.The elevation for BMP3 is -6 degrees in depression and 60 degrees in elevation, did Russia not design a 120mm thats a gun/mortar combo carried on the BMD chassis, Russian doctrine states for BMP 3 infantry HE support is with in 2000 meters and thats for infantry positions and structures, cannon is used for IFVs and helicopters, 100mm laser guided anti armor round would give you the extended range. I have fired HEP 105 mm rounds at 2500 meters and they are so slow that you can fire it from the gunners position on a tank and climb up to the TC`s position and watch it land/impact.
P.S. Doctrine ... huh, do you really believe what BMP-3 will not shot at enemy from 4000m if it could just becouse of some "doctrine"?
P.S. Yes, Russia also have BMD-based vehicle with 120mm. Russians always was obsessed with artillery. I think, since at least 17 century they artillery was strongest in the world.
Yes, it did even two on different platform: BMD "Nona" air-dropped and sailing 120 mm SPH , BMP "Vena" 120 mm, you can see the both on follow pictures. Both systems are in service. In addition to 100mm BMP-3 it gives a big push for arty support on the batallion level.
The new 120mm HE rounds also allow to attack enemy behind obstacles due to programmable detionation distance.
Just target over the enemy cover and let the HE explode over their heads.
But that goes off topic.
@Manfred
Your integrated mortar support is already integrated in some armies.
For example we use mortars in a sixth company in our mech inf bns.
Sweden gives you quite a good range of vehicles on CV90 chassis which covers all your needs.
But I would put the AA units into a seperate command and attach them if needed and so have only IFVs and the mortars in one bn.
You are more flexible with this and it is easier to have one kind of unit in one bn.
In the end the mech inf bn is put together with the usual tank, AA, combat pioneer and cavalry/scout units anyway.
Just target over the enemy cover and let the HE explode over their heads.
But that goes off topic.
@Manfred
Your integrated mortar support is already integrated in some armies.
For example we use mortars in a sixth company in our mech inf bns.
Sweden gives you quite a good range of vehicles on CV90 chassis which covers all your needs.
But I would put the AA units into a seperate command and attach them if needed and so have only IFVs and the mortars in one bn.
You are more flexible with this and it is easier to have one kind of unit in one bn.
In the end the mech inf bn is put together with the usual tank, AA, combat pioneer and cavalry/scout units anyway.
Now that, I could envision Russian forces using. What type of projectiles are they using for the 120mm.
The armory includes dumb and laser-correctable arty rounds and mortar shells as well on the distances of 400m-13km.Now that, I could envision Russian forces using. What type of projectiles are they using for the 120mm.
1) brizant HE, 46 kg.
2) HEAT, 600 mm steel on 90grad, 1000m - effective range.
3) Thermobaric comparable with the capacity of regular 152/155mm rounds
4) smoky rounds and mortar shels
5) broad spectrum of foreigh 120 mm arty rounds (tested rounds of Germany, Spain, Israel, China, France)
6) "Kitolov" gun-launched ATGM, 9 (!) km range.
Sources: Motovilikha plants co. http://www.artillery-mz.com/en/ (the site of manufacturer, slow traffiic)
http://pda.lenta.ru/news/2006/06/14/vena/
http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=26624
http://www.mod.mil.by/armia/pdf/2005n6/13.pdf
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Of course, the Kitolov, unlike Sniper, use the reflected from target beam for its targeting, that allows targeting from external asset. It's more close to the Israeli 120 MG launched 'Lahat' or to the Russian 152mm Krasnopol. If the distance is more that 7 km (superincumbent target) or 5km (moving up to 30km.h target), it naturally needs external targeting like UAV's, that easy-easy gonna apear on the RuA's batallion level. The last variant of this kinda munittion Kitolov-2M has even better range - up to 14 km: http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/kitolov.shtml
Very interesting - thanks for the information.
I'd say a 20-25mm auto gun for an IFV, because you really want to put more rounds outfield. You want to suppress your enemy as much as possible, not to mention recoil is another factor to consider.
With 35 mm rounds (like the Bushmaster III in the CV9035) you have the option for programmable airburst ammo. I don't know if a similar option is avalable for 20-25 mm. 35 mm seems to be the ideal middle ground between amount of ammo and power of the round.
I thought airburst rounds were still in the final experimental stages? What current IFV uses or is suppose to use 35 mm airburst rounds?
Well I've read about it here:
http://www.defense-update.com/products/c/CV9035.htm
But it doesn't say directly that airburst munition is already available at the moment. But in the future when these vehicles will be introduced it most likely will be.
And an article about the Rheinmetall's air burst munition:
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?lang=3&fid=3182
http://www.defense-update.com/products/c/CV9035.htm
But it doesn't say directly that airburst munition is already available at the moment. But in the future when these vehicles will be introduced it most likely will be.
And an article about the Rheinmetall's air burst munition:
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?lang=3&fid=3182