An intelligent debate would never have a sentence like
[X country] is bringing it's "own kind of freedom" to [Y country]
The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
[X country] is bringing it's "own kind of freedom" to [Y country]
You're forgetting one very, very important fact, which overrides everything else.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Three times. Not the other way round. Nobody has invaded Russia.
Russia started the wars. In 2014 (Russian troops took over Crimea, & Russian provocateurs moved into Donbas & started the armed rebellion there) & 2022 (Russian troops invaded Ukraine on a broad front).
In case you hadn't noticed, Russia's also invaded Georgia twice, & now controls large parts of it, & Russian troops established & still prop up a separatist state in Moldova.
And still, nobody has invaded Russia since 1941.
Really? but an intelligent debate can contain a sentence like 'we are arming Ukraine to fight for freedom'. followed by a lecture on how Ukraine hates Russia. don't you know what Russia says they are fighting for? Russia said they are fighting for so many reasons including liberating the Donbass, so they are fighting for what they believe is freedom for Russian speakers in Ukraine. it's not intelligent because it's Russian version of freedom?
No, i don't forget things like this, and i remember very well the build up to each of these so called invasions. the west sponsored and over threw a siting pro Russian Ukrainian president, the lunatics that took over power start threatening to end the lease of Russian naval base, let's not go into that rabbit hole but Russia had to do what they had to do, they were never going to allow NATO lay their hands on that base.
Georgia attacked two breakaway republics that had Russian protection, South Osetia and Abkhazia if i remember well, and paid for it.
there was always a provocation that led to these invasions.
Russia ia a great power, whether you like it or not, they will always respond to events and developments in their periphery
rsemmes
Active Member
I am afraid, again, that is simplistic view of History. Feanor has been providing, from time to time, nuances to that storyline; but it makes us feel better.
I guess you don't count the Sino-Soviet War (skirmish) as an "invasion", but then, the partial invasion of Ukraine, doesn't count as an "invasion". In 1941, not even Hitler (and he was demented) planned to go beyond the Urals; that was too, a "partial" invasion.
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
rsemmes
Active Member
It seems that no one read the first post in Russia - General Discussion or that only our opinion counts. NATO is a four-letter-word for Russians, I read that a long time ago.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #14,648
It's hard to come up with something that doesn't exist. If one were compelled to produce a living unicorn to prove ones argument, it also wouldn't work out very well.
It's not black and white. Russian behavior absolutely contributes to NATO expansion. It's not the sole reason, but it's a major one. Russia has made many missteps in foreign policy that have led them to this situation. And instead of repairing the mistakes, Russia made another one, and a big one. Generally when you start invading your neighbors and couching the resolution of the war in territorial terms (among others to be fair) you're pretty far in the wrong.
Again you try and spin what was said, In a previous post I said that some Ukrainians spoke russian and I am fully aware that president Zelensky is an ethnic Russian and speaks Russian, Ukrainian and English you however implide that they all spoke Russian.
Please explain why NATO, a defensive organisation,is stupid as it is only there to stop Russian agression on its members. is that because Russia has additioal plans to further expand it's empire and NATO is in the way. and framing the invasion of Ukraine as a measure of self defence by Russia is total bull sh-t as Ukraine never threatened Russia and was never capable of doing so.
Again you are lumping all the western nations together and making that stupid statement that they think they own the world, when in reality nations like my own just want to get on with life without having to deal with threats and war.
Your comments about the moral high ground are interesting as I believe that it is the people with high moral standards are what keeps this world from totaly falling into chaos as they are a brake on those who don't have those standards.
I am of the opinion that you are umlikely to be who claim to be and could be a Russian troll.
I do not support my governments lack of courage in respect to the Irai=nian school children how ever you conveniently have made no mention the Russian strikes on Ukainian civilians with a death toal in the tems of thousands and documented strikes on multipule schools plus the documented removal of large numbers of children from their home and parants to be sent into russia.. Yes we do suport Ukraine as it was invaded and in the past several operations by the US have not been supported by us and we have given no support for the current Iranian action by the US. So while we are far from perfect your possition is even significantly less so.your from New Zealand right, you are all in the same boat, you vote together at the UN, you sanction people together, your part of these 50 countries supporting Ukraine with arms and money to fight Russia, you turn a blind eye when your allies are wrong but you like to punish Russia, sorry mate, serious double standards.
did you sanction US on any of the wrong invasions they carried out? why not? did you condemn the killing of Iranian school girls by a US missile strike. no you didn't. why?
you also belong to the five eyes alliance am not surprised that the only invasion that troubles you is the Russian one
New Zealand still has no position on the strike that killed 100 Iranian school children
More than five weeks on from a deadly bombing of a primary school in Iran, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has said New Zealand does not have a position on it.www.stuff.co.nz
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I agree and believe that inter government politics played a part however I think Russian behavior was the biggest driving factor.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #14,652
I think post-'91 there wasn't anything Russia could have realistically done to prevent NATO expansion. Despite assurances, NATO would have expanded eastward to some extent regardless.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
"Biolabs" are a classic Ru propaganda point. We have to wonder why "deyhere" keeps using RU talking points.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
So.....the majority doest speak Russian.
Im sure Ukraine is feeling the brotherly love after 4 years of daily missile and drone attacks.
No, I think Russia is learning that UKR does not want to be Russian.
Western madness of helping smaller countries not be Russia. how.awful. (that was sarcasm)
Right. Every bomb, every missile, every drone sent into UKR is a defense of Russia.
Do you wonder why we think you live in Russia ?
Russia might have plans to expand but the last time i checked, it was NATO that was expanding rapidly, Russia has been warning against NATO expansion for close to 20 years but no body listened, now you seem to be surprised that Russia invaded. every geo-political scholar understand that Russia had to do something about it because none of you were listening.
The honest truth is that all western countries are together, they vote together at the UN, they sanction people together so it's very effective, they never criticise each other and they never sanction each other, they are quick to condemn others and maintain absolute silence when one of their own is in the wrong. am sorry Nations like your own, are just, oh yes members, they just tag along.
this high moral standard you talking about is rubbish, the west has lost that argument also. supporting a government that bombs kids and people that can't defend them selves didn't help.
you can't win the argument anymore, you have resorted to crying Russian troll, get him. you don't like what you are hearing? i advice you to Travel a lot, go out there, you will realize that the world is a massive place, and there's a lot of different people with different views. it will help change your mentality that the west holds the high moral ground.
i won't argue with you on this because you just said you do not support your government stands on this issue. i respect that. but i will ask you, where are the sanctions, where is the same energy you used in sanctioning Russia? the rest of the world can see through your hypocrisy and double standards.
No man, i posted a video here of Tulsi Gabbard admitting to the bio-lab thing. is she propaganda too?
wonder what you like, you can wonder on, it don't change the facts. i live in Cardiff, never been to Russia. my friend just came back from Russia about 3 weeks ago and am going to Russia next month because my friend said it's really nice out there, i want to see for my self.
want to place a bet on my location? i will be happy to take your money
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
One of the dumber things out there. Funny enough, “the evidence” reads (yes, I actually looked at what the hype is all about):
The Institute of Experimental and Clinical Veterinary Medicine (IECVM) in Kharkiv […] focused research on diagnostics and vaccines[…] and operated laboratories that received assistance under DOD's Biological Threat Reduction Program, according to publicly-available information [as well as some reports by -blacked out-].
[…]as recently as 2019 had at least some biosafety and biosecurity deficiencies[…]
Also funny, the Director of National Security of the Unted States of Amercia:
Russia accused the U.S. of BW work in a basement lab in the facility…
[…]information from 2012 indicates that at least IECV's virology building has a basement level.
The director is not sure if there are basements. The “evidence” also explicitly states, which is arguably the funniest part:
IECVM […] almost certainly remains vulnerable to long-standing Russian information operations[…]
She then posts a map with designstions as the “evidence”:
So we have one lab in Odessa classified as the level 3 and storage of “bioweapons”. I will take a wild guess and say (betting my last) that this is due to the work with some viruses that are both level 3 stuff and considered to be (potential) bioweapons (like whatever category bioterrorism stuff is), for example anthrax. This is not my forte though and more knowledgeable people can provide better context. Other than that we have some level 1 and 2 labs. Level one is shit a high-school student can work with (with supervision, obviously). Level two is your flu, cold, now covid (the one that caused the recent pandemic, not the other one, the original SARS, level 3, I think), hepatitis, etc. Nothing special.
Interestingly, the “evidence” lists Ebola, which I believe is level 4 shit, but there is no lab with such a classification (I do not see why Ukraine would not work on Ebola either, lack of funds aside).
Another interesting aspect of the map is Kyiv… not far from Odessa. Laughing. I would venture a guess and say that this is due to complete and utter incompetence of Gabbard and her staff, but there is apparently also a village in Mykolaiv region called Kyiv that is populated by about 10 people, according to Wikipedia. Looks like a perfect place to hide a “zomg, biolab”, nicely out of sight - Area 51 level shit that is just being exposed by the DNI Gabbard. History in the making and we have front-row seats. Laughing (actually).
Of course, there is also a lab in “Cherniv” in Lviv region, according to the declassified map. While no such place exists, there is a village named Chernykhiv populated by less than 500 people (likely confused with familiar to many Chernihiv, population of nearly 300,000 before the war).
Then, there is also “Dnipropetrovsk” on the map. This is pretty cringe stuff, actually. Either it is Dnipro (Ukrainian) or Dnepropetrovsk (Russian).
In other words, the interns who made the map are… well… not very knowledgeable, to say politely. In reality, these individuals lack skills to google and review the results, which is indicative of the level of intellectual abilities of the said individuals. The administration full of idiots, which is unprecedented and (should be) very embarrassing (but it is not their forte).
So… to summarize. The United States provided funds to the facilities in Ukraine that likely catastrophically lacked resources over the years, in order to ensure safe handling and storage of well-known and common pathogens, investing in facilities and education. In other words, an ordinary cooperation between the two countries, the richest and a poor, in the interest of safety of everyone. The report also explicitly says that Russians will use this stuff for their propaganda campaign - the declassified stuff says (the funniest part mentioned above):
[…]houses at least some dangerous pathogens and almost certainly remains vulnerable to long-standing Russian information operations, seizure or damage.
While Gabbard’s press release says:
[…]likely housed dangerous pathogens and remained vulnerable to longstanding threats of Russian attack, seizure, or damage.
Conveniently, the “information operations” - that is, propaganda campaign - is removed in the press release (the report likely dates back to Biden post-invasion era). This is not to say that Gabbard is a “Russian asset” (this is dumb, in my opinion), but that she is (I am going to use this politically incorrect term again) retarted. As is a great deal of the Trump administration, including the man himself (Gabbard appears to be more special than many others though).
None of this stops the lemmings though: “Oh my gawd, they have been lying to us for years! The bioweapons and such!”, “Fauci and rona!”
Just to add, most of the dates in the report fall within late Yushchenko (approval ratings of 5-7%) to early-mid Yanukovych years. In other words, the USA, very logically, decided to invest heavily into the bioweapons in Ukraine when “their appointee” was on the way out and “Putin’s puppet” took power.
Anyway, materials used:
Press release: DNI Gabbard Reveals Evidence of U.S. Taxpayer-Funded Global Biolab Program | Office of the Director of National Intelligence
“The evidence”, the link provided in the press-release cited: https://www.dni.gov/files/BIOLAB_Slides.pdf
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
No, she is retarted. See my reply above.
P. S. Yes, it is propaganda. Aimed at Trump supporters still grieving the covid times and Biden and Fauci et al.