Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[spoz]

It’s quite possible; we sent people to both Navantia and Bath before the DDG build started, and I believe there are quite a number in Glasgow at BAE’s T26 facility at present. More likely to be the foremen and the like rather than those with their hands directly on the tools, though; developing supervisory and inspection skills to the necessary level is more dependant on access to the OEM and their possibly unique approach than those who are applying what they are already competent and experienced in doing to the job.

 

[ngatimozart]

ngatimozart said
However when you think about it, you are an island nation, albeit of a continental size so you do really need a reasonably sized and capable navy and air force to keep any potential enemies as far away from your shores as possible. You really don't want them to gain a foothold anywhere on your continent. Even though you are a continent, you are still an island and don't lose sight of that.

That's a very isolationist point of view though. I would rather go and fight the enemy near / on their shores than waiting for them to land. That does need a good air force and navy of course, but isolationist views in 1980s/90s came very close to rendering the ADF pointless in the 2000s. Every war requires a land force of significant strength and capability, even the Pacific War in 41-45.

It's not isolationist, just a statement of fact. The important part of my statement WRT strategy is "... you do really need a reasonably sized and capable navy and air force to keep any potential enemies as far away from your shores as possible." However like all islands you still have the strategic problems associated with islands in that you are dependent upon your SLOC for strategic materials. Yes you require a land force of significant strength and capability but, and here's the important point, the army cannot fly or float its forces to its wars. Next point what kind of war does the Australian Army think its next war going to be? Does it think it's going to be chasing Soviet tank armies back through the Fulda Gap, or Saddam's Republican Guards across the desert? Surely its not expecting to storm the Forbidden Palace after invading the PRC? Has it even thought about a Pacific War 2.0? I certainly hope so, because it needs to remember the lessons of the past and not have repeats of follies like the Pommies did with the fall of Malaya and Singapore or MacArthur did with the fall of the Philippines. No one wants repeats of those.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Confirmation from the Minister of State for Defence in the UK that Australian personal are being trained on Royal Navy Nuclear Submarine Propulsion plants. Does this hint at the likely source of Australian SSNs or just giving RAN staff exposure to operating reactors perhaps with a view to them working on exchange with the RN Submarine force?

Nuclear Submarines: Training

Ministry of Defence written question – answered at 19 July 2022

www.theyworkforyou.com

 

[ngatimozart]

Confirmation from the Minister of State for Defence in the UK that Australian personal are being trained on Royal Navy Nuclear Submarine Propulsion plants. Does this hint at the likely source of Australian SSNs or just giving RAN staff exposure to operating reactors perhaps with a view to them working on exchange with the RN Submarine force?

Nuclear Submarines: Training

Ministry of Defence written question – answered at 19 July 2022

www.theyworkforyou.com

We have a ban on speculation about the SSN. The minute you speculated about the source of them you crossed the line. I will let off about RAN personnel being embedded with RN subs. Banned from replying on this thread for 2 days. Think yourself lucky because the standard ban is 7 days.

Ngatimozart.

 

[Aardvark144]

For info - RAN personnel will also be on exchange with the USN SSN community.

 

[MickB]

The crews on ships that are being upgraded go on professional courses or to other ships. They aren't left sitting around marking time. As it is the RAN is short handed. The shortfall is in MFU and these ships that you suggest aren't MFU and aren't what is required. Have a read through about what the defence professionals have been saying, especially the Australian ones about what is required and look at the wider picture, not just a narrow platform focussed one.

Part of where I come from is from listening to (possibly self proclaimed) defence pros (ASPI 5 feb 2020 Time for Corvettes for the RAN).
Bit of a luddite not good at posting links.
One of the greater problems with expanding the RAN is lack of command trained officers and senior non com sailors.
These vessels in addition to everything else they could bring will help with that.
Yes being a CPO on a FAC with 20 crew is different to a CPO on a destroyer with 180 but any and all experience adds up.

 

[Redlands18]

Part of where I come from is from listening to (possibly self proclaimed) defence pros (ASPI 5 feb 2020 Time for Corvettes for the RAN).
Bit of a luddite not good at posting links.
One of the greater problems with expanding the RAN is lack of command trained officers and senior non com sailors.
These vessels in addition to everything else they could bring will help with that.
Yes being a CPO on a FAC with 20 crew is different to a CPO on a destroyer with 180 but any and all experience adds up.

Good point about command experience but that is already happening with the jump from the Armidale's to the Arafura's with nearly a doubling of the crew size. They are going to be a significant leap as Trg platforms for the RAN.

 

[spoz]

Most RAN COs only get one major fleet unit command, and most would love more than that. The RAN is not short of officers who can command; there is very strenuous competition to get command with many who are well qualified missing out.

Senior sailors don’t normally command; they lead. There are shortages in some categories but others are well placed.

 

[ASSAIL]

Part of where I come from is from listening to (possibly self proclaimed) defence pros (ASPI 5 feb 2020 Time for Corvettes for the RAN).
Bit of a luddite not good at posting links.
One of the greater problems with expanding the RAN is lack of command trained officers and senior non com sailors.
These vessels in addition to everything else they could bring will help with that.
Yes being a CPO on a FAC with 20 crew is different to a CPO on a destroyer with 180 but any and all experience adds up.

As Spoz has said, there is no lack of command trained officers in the RAN.
For over 50 years opportunities have existed in the Three previous classes of Patrol Boats, LCH’s and MW ships. Whilst small these provide the full range command decisions, many operating in extremely isolated areas away from other units.
Not only does this provide a fantastic stepping stone for junior officers to further command, it equally applies to senior NCOs in the crews who are totally reliant on their own resources, particularly engineering specialists.
Command decisions being made here only differ in scale with those made later in an officers career.
The experience is invaluable.

 

[Bob53]

I hope I don’t get the red texta for venturing into the subs arena but apparently Sth Korea putting forward an unsolicited option for bridging any sub capability gap should it be determined there will be said gap. South Koreans offer Aussies new subs in 7 years to close Collins gap - Breaking Defense

 

[ngatimozart]

I hope I don’t get the red texta for venturing into the subs arena but apparently Sth Korea putting forward an unsolicited option for bridging any sub capability gap should it be determined there will be said gap. South Koreans offer Aussies new subs in 7 years to close Collins gap - Breaking Defense

Why would you like a red text?

An interesting proposal but as the article states the CoA hasn't made any decisions yet, and apart from that anything else is pure speculation. Can't blame them for trying.

 

[DDG38]

Like a glove ! (bonus points if you get the movie reference) :
"The aviation support team from HMAS Canberra transfer an embarked U.S. Marine Corps MV-22B Osprey into the ship’s hanger during Exercise RIMPAC 2022. Royal Australian Navy Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) HMAS Canberra embarked two MV-22B Osprey Military Aircraft onboard and successfully moved the Osprey off the flight deck, down the elevator lift and into the hangar for the first time at sea during Exercise Rim of the Pacific 2022. The trial with the Osprey’s is part of the Aircraft Maintenance and Flight Trials Unit (AMAFTU) testing Australia’s ability to embark and stow the aircraft with their pilots, ground crew and maintainers to understand what can be achieved and for what duration."
Image Source : ADF Image Library

 

[DDG38]

And for the SSN speculators, have a look at this photo and consider this - in this group of sailors there is maybe a future SSN Chief of the Boat.
"General Entry 402 Taylor Division conduct a march past during their graduation ceremony at the Royal Australian Navy Recruit School at HMAS Cerberus, Victoria." Image Source : ADF Image Library

 

[Captain Matchbox]

Like a glove ! (bonus points if you get the movie reference) :
"The aviation support team from HMAS Canberra transfer an embarked U.S. Marine Corps MV-22B Osprey into the ship’s hanger during Exercise RIMPAC 2022. Royal Australian Navy Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) HMAS Canberra embarked two MV-22B Osprey Military Aircraft onboard and successfully moved the Osprey off the flight deck, down the elevator lift and into the hangar for the first time at sea during Exercise Rim of the Pacific 2022. The trial with the Osprey’s is part of the Aircraft Maintenance and Flight Trials Unit (AMAFTU) testing Australia’s ability to embark and stow the aircraft with their pilots, ground crew and maintainers to understand what can be achieved and for what duration."
Image Source : ADF Image Library
View attachment 49544

Ford Fairlaine, in my top 5

 

[DDG38]

Ford Fairlaine, in my top 5

Nope not quite, actually Ace Ventura.

 

[AndyinOz]

Certainly the Osprey do seem to fit like a glove and look like they can be effectively stowed for situations where we migh need to work with our USMC friends be it exercises or something a little more realistic. Naturally I imagine there will be calls for Australia to acquire the V22 from some quarters after seeing this. Not a requirement in my book, but a plus to see that they can be effectively landed and dropped down below into the belly of the beast.
As a side note half of me whilst looking at the post earlier so wanted to scream Ace Ventura, I just sat here lamenting the fact I don't have fabulous hair like that anymore.

 

[ADMk2]

Certainly the Osprey do seem to fit like a glove and look like they can be effectively stowed for situations where we migh need to work with our USMC friends be it exercises or something a little more realistic. Naturally I imagine there will be calls for Australia to acquire the V22 from some quarters after seeing this. Not a requirement in my book, but a plus to see that they can be effectively landed and dropped down below into the belly of the beast.
As a side note half of me whilst looking at the post earlier so wanted to scream Ace Ventura, I just sat here lamenting the fact I don't have fabulous hair like that anymore.

FSP 2020, still the leading strategic policy advice for defence, lists a new long ranged rotocraft as an investment priority…

https://www.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/Factsheet_Land.pdf

 

[John Fedup]

FSP 2020, still the leading strategic policy advice for defence, lists a new long ranged rotocraft as an investment priority…

https://www.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/Factsheet_Land.pdf

The timeframe should fit within America!s FVL program.

 

[Captain Matchbox]

Nope not quite, actually Ace Ventura.

The quiff and convertible confused my fading memory

@Captain Matchbox You are a new member on here and whilst you maybe an old salt you still have post more than one line of text. Two would be idea. However since you appear to be a shippers of @DDG38 I know that could be difficult given that he's probably lead you astray.

Ngatimozart.

 

[MickB]

Breaking Defence report that the MQ-9B can now be fitted with a STOL kit allowing its operation from carriers and assault ships.

With zero transit time from bases, such a drone would greatly enhance the persistence of ISR around an RAN task force.

Since the MQ-9B seems to be the way forward for the USMC the ADF could attach itself to its upgrade path.

Edit After posting I seem to remember that the ADF cancelled its MQ-9 order.