Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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spoz

The Bunker Group
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There is no capacity to fit additional Mk 41s into the Hobarts. The ships are tightly packed internally and there is no free deck space of sufficient size; the only possible way to do it would be to install in place of the hangar and that might run you into stability issues. That's quite apart from the capability reduction inherent in the removal of the helo. I guess in theory you could add a hull plug, but I'm not sure how the girder strength would stand up to that.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
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Verified Defense Pro
There is no capacity to fit additional Mk 41s into the Hobarts. The ships are tightly packed internally and there is no free deck space of sufficient size; the only possible way to do it would be to install in place of the hangar and that might run you into stability issues. That's quite apart from the capability reduction inherent in the removal of the helo. I guess in theory you could add a hull plug, but I'm not sure how the girder strength would stand up to that.
Plugging these vessels would be a very expensive and difficult task noting the common form area is in the way of the the machinery space (i.e: you can fit a plug in that matches the hull form on both sides of the plug).

If additional cells are required then an increase in capacity in a subsequent batch of the Hunters would be the best option. This presupposes that they have not already decided to increase the cell capacity. As noted by some it is assumed that the cell number will be limited to 32 based on the models presented to the public.... but there has been some suggestion that the design can take more Mk41 cells. Not sure if all would be Strike versions or it this is actually practical.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You are never going to brow beat a significant power by tomahawk missiles alone. They are a day zero strike option. You don't fight the entire war with them. Sure the US launched 59 from two ships, but it didn't single handedly win the war.
In the Australian context, most of the benefit of something like tomahawk comes without having to actually fire them. Their primary purpose would be to reduce the freedom of action of any threat (*cough* China *cough*), as they would have to treat every Australian ship as having the ability to reach out and touch them at 1500 miles, and act accordingly. In this context it also doesn’t really matter if the Australian ships are carrying 2 or 20 missiles - the Chinese won’t know, and like everyone will plan for worst case.

It is an irony I have always enjoyed with submarines. In the Australian context, firing something like tomahawk from submarines makes zero sense. The value of submarines for Australia is the implied threat they provide to any enemy by them not knowing where they are. They have to act as though the submarines can be anywhere, and their freedom of action is therefore greatly reduced. In fact, in times of conflict the RAN could probably just sail the submarines 100 miles off Fremantle and sit there, and still achieve 80% of the effect of them actively patrolling. Firing land attack missiles is therefore incredibly counter productive, as it lets the enemy know where the submarine is, and therefore where it is not, and allows them to act with greater freedom of action elsewhere. The amount of damage a couple of missiles can do cannot outweigh this lost shaping effect.

However, and here’s the real irony, by being equipped with land attack missiles in the first place the shaping effect on the enemy is even greater, as they now have to act to protect not only their naval vessels but also critical land targets. That might take key ASW assets etc away from other areas, and reduce the enemy’s freedom of action even more. Therefore it makes sense to equip Australia’s submarines with land attack missiles even if we would never intend to actually fire them in all but the most unusual of circumstances.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
With only 3 DDG's, would seem very risky. Chopping them up in a risky and expensive extension seems unlikely. Honestly I am a bit worried about the radar CEA mast refit and we have plenty of experience with that. That upgrade, I would bet money on it, would have consumed most of the growth/top weight etc margin on this ship (which was already limited), much like we did with the Anzacs. We are already pushing the design out (a design which has already significantly evolved from the original F-100). Personally a great radar and limited missile load out sounds like a fair compromise for the RAN.

We are already "prototyping" steel for the Hunters. IMO we should copy the Canadians, 32 strike VLS and 24x CAMM. That may not be able to be fitted onto the first batch at launch, but should be a fairly straight forward adaption for future builds(#4 or later?).

But again, you are only gaining small increments at time and the rate of replacement of the Anzacs will not be rapid. Making variations adds, time, risk, cost. It also takes away from other functions and capabilities.

If we want more firepower, we are going to have to look at and explore other options. Another 4 or 8 missiles on a ship, for all the money, time and effort you throw at it, isn't going to change the balance. We could easily spent hundreds of millions, possibly billions modifying ship designs to carry a few more. But it won't be enough. You can't turn them into battleships (circa 1915), able to deliver days of continual bombardment and laying waste to enemy fleets.

They will have great sensors, they will carry a decent bag of highly capable munitions.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
With only 3 DDG's, would seem very risky. Chopping them up in a risky and expensive extension seems unlikely. Honestly I am a bit worried about the radar CEA mast refit and we have plenty of experience with that. That upgrade, I would bet money on it, would have consumed most of the growth/top weight etc margin on this ship (which was already limited), much like we did with the Anzacs. We are already pushing the design out (a design which has already significantly evolved from the original F-100). Personally a great radar and limited missile load out sounds like a fair compromise for the RAN.

We are already "prototyping" steel for the Hunters. IMO we should copy the Canadians, 32 strike VLS and 24x CAMM. That may not be able to be fitted onto the first batch at launch, but should be a fairly straight forward adaption for future builds(#4 or later?).

But again, you are only gaining small increments at time and the rate of replacement of the Anzacs will not be rapid. Making variations adds, time, risk, cost. It also takes away from other functions and capabilities.

If we want more firepower, we are going to have to look at and explore other options. Another 4 or 8 missiles on a ship, for all the money, time and effort you throw at it, isn't going to change the balance. We could easily spent hundreds of millions, possibly billions modifying ship designs to carry a few more. But it won't be enough. You can't turn them into battleships (circa 1915), able to deliver days of continual bombardment and laying waste to enemy fleets.

They will have great sensors, they will carry a decent bag of highly capable munitions.
Well the British did try doing it by putting 18in Guns on the Furious and 16in Guns on the Courageous and Glorious.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
However, and here’s the real irony, by being equipped with land attack missiles in the first place the shaping effect on the enemy is even greater, as they now have to act to protect not only their naval vessels but also critical land targets. That might take key ASW assets etc away from other areas, and reduce the enemy’s freedom of action even more. Therefore it makes sense to equip Australia’s submarines with land attack missiles even if we would never intend to actually fire them in all but the most unusual of circumstances.
This is the key. China has many bases. Many quite exposed. China has a significant opposition. The more China pressures its opposition, the more it will feel the need to draw back and protect these various bases. The more it needs to be ready, the more it fatigues itself. The SCS is generally very shallow, firing something like harpoon (or a torpedo) out from a sub in the SCS would be a one way ticket to davey jones's locker. But Tlam makes it much more believable and viable. Its range makes trying to hunt it down nigh on impossible, even for a ratty diesel sub. There is no 1500km Asroc to fire back, a sub can choose when and where to engage. China would have to do the hard yards and build up its ASW capability, which we know is, weak. Every dollar we spend they would need to spend many multiples.

The problems with fighting stealthy phantoms is you can't prove they aren't there, only that they could be there. So every blip becomes a possibility. Australia would be yet another power, another vector of annoyance coming from seas far away, seas it doesn't control. During the cold war, the US had to try and tail all the soviet subs. Its a hugely draining exercise, even for a power as immense as the US. How do you do that against multiple powers all over the planet? You can't. You live in fear. You know there are many lose ends, many unaccounted. In chasing those you bring your assets into the range of the enemy ASW and their capabilities.

If Australia ever fires TLAM, we won't be doing it alone (the US can launch a tremendous number), and it won't be the only thing coming at them.. But it does give us a card to be in the discussions about launching strikes.

Which for China, is much, much worse than all the missiles Australia could ever purchase/launch. Australia is unlikely to be seen as a calming influence on US strategy and leadership. If the US ever launches, it won't be doing it unilaterally, it will now be a joint launch and joint decision.

The missiles could sit in storage rusting, never fitted, and they would be well worth the money to be in that loop.

You don't need a massive war chest.. UK purchase ~65, and only, can only fire them from subs (all 7 SSN), from their torpedo tubes. Which is a slow way of firing them at the best of times. (Why did no Royal Navy submarine launch missiles against Syria? | Navy Lookout). They should already be integrated with the combat systems of the subs and the DDG's.

The biggest issue previously was annoying the neighbors. That is no longer an issue. No one cares. The Indonesians in defence circles, would be giggling about this. Its in their interests, they probably would take up a collection in the office to make sure it happens.
 

Delta204

Active Member
Interesting discussion. But specifically regarding the China scenario I think I would be careful making assumptions that China will be as risk adverse / defensive as some think. My guess is that they would in fact be more offensive at the onset of a conflict, forcing opposition forces to expend their munitions on targets of their choosing... I'm sure they would gladly accept 2:1, 3:1 or 4:1+ losses depending on the circumstance. The key will be getting to their most valued assets / infrastructure and destroying it before they try to overwhelm you.

So I'll argue that a mix of high / low capability weapons will be needed. Not every target will need LRASM or whatever next gen weapon is in development. Those will need to be saved for the right target, not just any target.
 
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Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well the British did try doing it by putting 18in Guns on the Furious and 16in Guns on the Courageous and Glorious.
Yes, But that was a mad idea from Eddy Fisher and that did not last long as all three were quickly converted to aircraft carriers after the war. The guns on Courageous and Glorious were in fact 15in. An interesting note on the 15 in 42 cal of the RN, in my time at defence HQ during some slack time I found in the archive section of the old defence library and read a report by the US navy that was written after WW2 This was about heavy naval artillery fitted to battle ships and it rated the RN's 15 /42 as the best heavy gun and mount combination as the best in the world due to its combination of accuracy, rate of fire, reliability and hitting power. I know that there will be differing opinions to this but that is what the USN report stated in 1945-6.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Yes, But that was a mad idea from Eddy Fisher and that did not last long as all three were quickly converted to aircraft carriers after the war. The guns on Courageous and Glorious were in fact 15in. An interesting note on the 15 in 42 cal of the RN, in my time at defence HQ during some slack time I found in the archive section of the old defence library and read a report by the US navy that was written after WW2 This was about heavy naval artillery fitted to battle ships and it rated the RN's 15 /42 as the best heavy gun and mount combination as the best in the world due to its combination of accuracy, rate of fire, reliability and hitting power. I know that there will be differing opinions to this but that is what the USN report stated in 1945-6.
And i believe the 15/42s taken off the Courageous class where put into storage and the RN designed the Vanguard around them as the 16in Guns for the proposed Lion class were still under development.
*sorry the 16in i quoted above is a typo.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interesting they have changed some of the deck markings.
1613709943643.png

Doesn't look like shes been fully painted yet, with more painting occurring outside of the dock. Also no phalanx yet.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Looks like they’ve marked out two additional helicopter landing spots, one forward and one aft of the superstructure, interesting.
Does anyone know if Adelaide is due to follow Canberra into the dry dock for the same upgrade?
Yes she is.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
... An interesting note on the 15 in 42 cal of the RN, in my time at defence HQ during some slack time I found in the archive section of the old defence library and read a report by the US navy that was written after WW2 This was about heavy naval artillery fitted to battle ships and it rated the RN's 15 /42 as the best heavy gun and mount combination as the best in the world due to its combination of accuracy, rate of fire, reliability and hitting power. I know that there will be differing opinions to this but that is what the USN report stated in 1945-6.
Whether or not it was the best in the world, in hindsight it is clear that it was good enough for everything it was called on to do or might have been needed to do in WW1 & WW2, & there was no need to develop a new gun before battleship time was over. Improved mountings with higher elevation for greater range were all that were needed - & Hood (when built) & Renown & some of the QEs (in 1930s rebuilds) got them. It could & did benefit from improvement in performance due to better fire control, but that was not specific to the gun.

But that's hindsight.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Whether or not it was the best in the world, in hindsight it is clear that it was good enough for everything it was called on to do or might have been needed to do in WW1 & WW2, & there was no need to develop a new gun before battleship time was over. Improved mountings with higher elevation for greater range were all that were needed - & Hood (when built) & Renown & some of the QEs (in 1930s rebuilds) got them. It could & did benefit from improvement in performance due to better fire control, but that was not specific to the gun.

But that's hindsight.
Some of their reasoning was due to an item that is not well known and that is what is known as gun and turret creep, this is something that you have to deal with in these missive structures were the turret weights in excess of 1000tons and the guns in excess of 100 tons each is that when moving them, IE elevating or training they don't come to an instant stop when the power doing the work is stopped. The over run was known in those days as creep and this had to be taken care of by the fire control system, as if you are a fraction of a degree out you will miss the target. It was noted that the 15/42 twin turret had just the right amount of creep and was more consistent than any other large mount in this regard and any inconsistency would reduce accuracy at long ranges. It also must be remembered that the 15/42 shared the record at 26000 yds for the longest range hit on a moving target from a moving ship and that at the battle of Jutland battle sqnd 5 (QE's ) were making multiple hits in excess of 20000 yds much to the surprise of the Germans. Historically in past ship to ship engagements hits over 20000 yds are quite rare so that the mountings with ranges in excess of say 25000- 30000 yards had little extra value over other mountings. During WW2 the RN provided supercharges to the unmodified 15/42 mounts which increased their range to just short of the modified mounts at a cost of some barrel life.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
Yes she is.
A recent copy of Warships magazine has HMAS Adelaide on the front cover with the new deck markings for flight operations.
Unless this is a typo, it appears this has been done prior to any refit.
Any clarity on this


Regards S
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
A recent copy of Warships magazine has HMAS Adelaide on the front cover with the new deck markings for flight operations.
Unless this is a typo, it appears this has been done prior to any refit.
Any clarity on this


Regards S
A picture of the November 2020 front cover for comparison. It doesn’t look like its been painted for some time. On the Canberra’s Facebook page it doesn’t have the new markings so it looks like the 2 ships have had different markings for some time.
 
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