Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Tasman]

Can't believe this Teddy Sheehan VC business.

Sheean battle rages on with PM in Lambie's sights after rebuke for Defence Minister
Papers are full of it today as well

PM won't reconsider top honour for sailor

The prime minister will not intervene in the decision to deny war hero Teddy Sheean a posthumous Victoria...

www.canberratimes.com.au

I don't get why it doesn't meet the requirements?

The independent tribunal unanimously recommended the award! Why would they do that if it didn't meet the requirements? I'm personally very disappointed with the PM's decision and also with the intervention of the Chief of Defence Force who said it might upset the Queen!

Tas

 

[spoz]

If Sheehan deserved a VC, Rankin probably did only more so. Certainly a number of RN officers got VCs for essentially the same type of action. However, it was 77 years ago in a very different world and in my opinion it is total arrogance on our part to assume that we now know better than that generation did, and that we should revisit decisions that were made at the time. Let it lie

As I understand it, they did not recommend an award; they said his actions met the current criteria for an award. They previously, in 2013, recommended against actually making an award.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I kinda figured after this, perhaps given how many times the VC had been looked at, and the issues around that, maybe something else would be made available. Particularly as the Collins class now have an expiry date. Some past decisions have been overturned and another medal made available.

I guess it runs into the context of what would specify a VC in a RAN context. I think in Sheehan context it looks like they have awarded continued controversy which then gets political at some point.

 

[ngatimozart]

I think that you will find that the government's hands are tied. I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that around 1946 - 1948 HM King George VI made the decision that further recommendations for WW2 VCs would no longer be accepted for consideration by the monarch. It would be highly unlikely that HM QE II would change that. Can't find the source for it at the moment.

 

[At lakes]

I concur with ngatimozat. There was a case in Rotorua where a member of the Maori Battalion a Lance Sgt I think he was. His bravery actions did not come to light to well after the King stated there would be no further VC medals presented for actions during the war. The local community petitioned the government and the palace and the Queen refused to go against the direction of the King. Eventually Prince Andrew rocked up and presented the family with the sword of Gallantry. An award I never of before or since.

Honouring Haane Manahi – for country, Te Arawa Sword of Gallantry / Company B / Multimedia / Home - Kia Mau

eng.kiamau.tki.org.nz

 

[Redlands18]

Believe I or not VCs for the RAN were awarded through the RN as the ships were operating under the control of the British Admiralty
Army and RAAF through Australia.
In 1914 Australia placed its Navy under the command and control of the Admiralty.
On 30 Aug 1939 they did so again with one proviso listed in a Secret Cable “The Commonwealth Government desire to place the the ships of the RAN and their personnel at the disposal of the UK government but find it necessary to stipulate that no ships should be taken from Australian waters without prior concurrence of the Commonwealth Government”
There has been previous discussion about Sheehan and moves by Senator Guy Barnett in the early 1990s moved an opposition motion to award three posthumous VCs, him included but not accepted.
There was argument that the GOTD had no power to grant the awards as this was the prerogative of the Crown/GG

Thanks Assail, i was actually aware of how the honours system worked during the World Wars and my was aimed at the Poms not the RAN. How the RAN was treated at the 1921 Washington Naval treaty i think shows exactly where the RAN really stood in the scheme of things, as a Squadron of the RN nothing more, we had no say as to whether we could or couldn’t keep our Flag Ship.

 

[hairyman]

It makes a move for a republic all the stronger doesnt it. Not intending to be political, but after watching the show during the week about Maralinga, it makes one feel less inclined to be considered british.

Just a cautionary note:
1. This forum is not a site for discussing the pros and cons of becoming a republic and we should stick to the RAN in this thread; and
2. Operation Buffalo is entertainment 'inspired' by events.

Certainly there were serious issues with the nuclear test programmes in Australia (which our government supported) but the ABC show should not be considered as factual. The truth is the US, French and the UK all tested their bombs in someone elses back yard.

Alexsa

 

[oldsig127]

It makes a move for a republic all the stronger doesnt it. Not intending to be political, but after watching the show during the week about Maralinga, it makes one feel less inclined to be considered british.

You're not being political. Most of it is fiction set in an historical period.

Personally, I'm finding it distracts from the very real wrongs that were committed against Australia, Australian servicemen and the indigenous inhabitants in particular even allowing for then contemporary mores.

oldsig

 

[ngatimozart]

It makes a move for a republic all the stronger doesnt it. Not intending to be political, but after watching the show during the week about Maralinga, it makes one feel less inclined to be considered british.

Why would you want to be considered British? Unless you're British born and still hold a British passport. However if you're a born and bred Aussie, then you belong to an independent country. If you're a naturalized Australian the same applies.

Whether or not Australia becomes a republic is a conversation for another forum, but undoubtedly, like NZ, it will be a subject given considerable consideration when HM QE II ends her reign.

 

[InterestedParty]

“The term 'Australian nationality' entered usage only in the 1940s when the Commonwealth's full sovereignty was realised, but during the 1960s the census continued to require Australian citizens to declare their nationality as British. Calwell talked of Australian nationality in the 1940s, and policymakers in the mid-1950s recognised that, at least in law, Australian citizens could be described as being of Australian nationality, but the term was given no official recognition or meaning and Australian citizens were considered to be of British nationality.*

Not until 1969 did they cease to be British subjects, and retain only the status of British subjects; a semantic change that attracted much general criticism for being confusing and also criticism from the Labor opposition, which regarded the concept 'British subject' as an anachronism in need of abolition. Only then were Australian citizens to be described as such for official purposes rather than as British subjects, and the Nationality and Citizenship Act was renamed the Citizenship Act. The Act was renamed again in 1973: the Australian Citizenship Act”

Citizenship in Australia - Citizenship in Australia: A Guide to Commonwealth Government Records

* Memorandum, THE Heyes, Secretary of the Department of Immigration to Minister for Immigration, July 1954, NAA: A432, 1961/3191

The concept of Australian citizenship vs British subject can be very confusing and In my professional life I keep coming across Brits who have been here since the 50’s and 60’s and never left

Mods, sorry about going off topic

 

[BJR]

ABDR has published an extensive article on the development history of the ANZACs and the capability updates currently underway as part of the ANZAC Mid-life Capability Assurance Program (AMCAP):

Feature: FIGHTING FIT – ADBR

AMCAP includes installation of CEAFAR2 radar in replacement for the original Raytheon SPS-49(V)8 radar.

The article includes comments by CMDR Elliott:

“He added that one of the great capabilities of the CEAFAR radar is its ability to identify targets with extreme accuracy and provide that information to other warships, such as the DDGs, for targeting at extended ranges using SM-2 and maybe, further down the track, SM-6 missiles. But does that amount to a Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC), a much vaunted and very high-end ability of Aegis-equipped warships to share sensor information, with one providing target data and another firing the missiles?

“We would like to refer to it as that one day but of course that’s the American terminology. We would like to consider that this capability is like that,” CDRE Elliot said.”

So, CEC (but not as we know it…) on all ANZACs by Q1 2024 via CEAFAR2 – this should increase the effectiveness of missile usage across TGs in high end warfighting. And here I was thinking that we would have to wait till the Hunters were in service in the 2030s before RAN TGs were fully equipped for coop engagement.

Additionally, SM-6 is still on the RAN shopping list.

 

[Redlands18]

“The term 'Australian nationality' entered usage only in the 1940s when the Commonwealth's full sovereignty was realised, but during the 1960s the census continued to require Australian citizens to declare their nationality as British. Calwell talked of Australian nationality in the 1940s, and policymakers in the mid-1950s recognised that, at least in law, Australian citizens could be described as being of Australian nationality, but the term was given no official recognition or meaning and Australian citizens were considered to be of British nationality.*

Not until 1969 did they cease to be British subjects, and retain only the status of British subjects; a semantic change that attracted much general criticism for being confusing and also criticism from the Labor opposition, which regarded the concept 'British subject' as an anachronism in need of abolition. Only then were Australian citizens to be described as such for official purposes rather than as British subjects, and the Nationality and Citizenship Act was renamed the Citizenship Act. The Act was renamed again in 1973: the Australian Citizenship Act”

Citizenship in Australia - Citizenship in Australia: A Guide to Commonwealth Government Records

* Memorandum, THE Heyes, Secretary of the Department of Immigration to Minister for Immigration, July 1954, NAA: A432, 1961/3191

The concept of Australian citizenship vs British subject can be very confusing and In my professional life I keep coming across Brits who have been here since the 50’s and 60’s and never left

Mods, sorry about going off topic

Officially we may have still been British Subjects in the 1960s, but i was born in 1961 in a small NSW Country Town and never once in my entire Childhood did i ever think of myself as anything but Australian, English people were nearly as foreign to me as French or Italians.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Commonwealth nationality/British nationality were pretty much intermingled for a long time -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen

Australian identity is arguably much clearer and been around far longer than actual citizenship and nationality.

“We would like to refer to it as that one day but of course that’s the American terminology. We would like to consider that this capability is like that,” CDRE Elliot said.”

So, CEC (but not as we know it…) on all ANZACs by Q1 2024 via CEAFAR2 – this should increase the effectiveness of missile usage across TGs in high end warfighting. And here I was thinking that we would have to wait till the Hunters were in service in the 2030s before RAN TGs were fully equipped for coop engagement.

It certainly makes the Anzacs a bit more relevant going forward into the future the way they will be able to interact and share data and share capability. They aren't just isolated disconnected corks. They become very useful sensor platforms.

 

[spoz]

Links 11, 16 and 22 already allow the transmission of sensor data in various forms from one platform to another; and I'm not sure how a radar would improve that, but then, I'm not involved with ANZACs. However, it's a comms issue not really a sensor issue

BTW, Rob Elliot is a Commodore, not a Commander - CMDR is the abbreviation for the latter.

 

[hauritz]

The Australian Defence Special 2020 is available. Even for non subscribers.

Defence Special Report 2020

A special report from The Australian.

specialreports.theaustralian.com.au

 

[ngatimozart]

HOW MANY TIMES DO THE MODERATORS HAVE TO TELL YOU TO LAY OFF THE FANTASY STUFF. YOU ALL KNOW BY NOW THAT WE HAVE ZERO TOLERANCE FOR IT, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE GET DEF PROS GIVING US GRIEF ABOUT IT.

 

[Redlands18]

Home - Defence Technology Review

IN THIS ISSUE ACCESS CURRENT ISSUE NEWS Land 400 Phase 3 latest The current status of the Australian Army’s Land 400 Phase 3 project and what the next few months may hold. Read the full article NEWS MRH-90 woes continue With poor rates of effort and climbing costs the MRH-90 trooplift helicopter...

dtrmagazine.com

Excellent article in this months(June20) edition on Marinisation of Helicopters, its a lot more than just countering the effects of corrosion.

 

[ASSAIL]

Getting away from bloody OPVs!
NUSHIP Supply seems to be nearly ready for delivery.
The very short video

shows her alongside Her sistership Cantabria either about to leave or having just arrived from/for Sea Trials.

and this posted to fb yesterday

https://www.facebook.com/HMASSupplyII/photos/a.200771610800535/550189902525369

 

[ngatimozart]

THREAD LOCKED PENDING MODERATORS DISCUSSIONS.

 

[OPSSG]

Thread reopened.

As aussienscale noted, the Australian Government sets task, based on that task Defence develops CONOPS, from those CONOPS capability is determined and goes back and forth until the platform is selected. The Arafura class OPVs at 1,640 tonnes, as the platform selected is intended for constabulary patrolling — they may be equipped with RHIBs (or USVs) and a helicopter landing deck that can launch UAVs, like the Camcopter S-100.

These are versatile vessels with some room for incremental growth. But they don’t have the capacity to become, some sort of surface combatant Swiss Army knife.

The Arafura class (and it’s more heavily armed cousin, the Darussalam class) as OPVs are not capable of being turned into mini DDGs or perform the role of heavily armed corvettes. It irks the Mod Team that any attempt to introduce reality and hose down flights of fancy was just ignored. Imaginary OPV upgrade discussion moved to: Interesting & obscure RAN discussions (not related to current capabilities)