Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[hauritz]

Stretching the timeline is probably the softest option for the UK with the Defence budge apparently stretched. Getting the Type 31 into service quickly is probably a higher priority to enable the retirement of the oldest Type 23s. I wonder if the RN has considered leasing FREMMs off the French Navy like Greece?

As for the RAN, with construction due to commence in 2020 it would be likely the first RAN ship will be in service before HMS Glasgow.

I don't see any Australian version of the type 26 getting into the water before the British version. Even BAE concede that full construction of an Australian Type 26 won't start until 2022.

If Australia were to go with the Type 26 I could see the in-service date pushed back to the end of the 2020s.

The F-5000 is and maybe the FREMM would seem to be the only designs that could be ready to start production in 2020.

 

[Jack Wyatt]

I don't see any Australian version of the type 26 getting into the water before the British version. Even BAE concede that full construction of an Australian Type 26 won't start until 2022.

If Australia were to go with the Type 26 I could see the in-service date pushed back to the end of the 2020s.

The F-5000 is and maybe the FREMM would seem to be the only designs that could be ready to start production in 2020.

Thanks for reminding me of this as I had forgotten this fact. For a design which had its origins in the 1990s, it has been slow going.

 

[Meriv90]

To make a comparision vs the 10 years it takes to make the Type26 (specifying in the UK)

The F-105 Cristoforo Colombo F-100 fifth frigate took 5 Years and 3 months

The F-596 Federico Martinengo , the last FREMM to enter our ranks just today took 3 years and 10 months from the start of the construction to the delivery to the Navy.

 

[hauritz]

A bit of good news about the frigate program.

Future Frigates decision won't be revisited under Labor - Defence Connect

At the very least it means that for the foreseeable future the frigate program should be able to go forward with minimal political interference regardless of who is in power.

 

[Todjaeger]

I don't see any Australian version of the type 26 getting into the water before the British version. Even BAE concede that full construction of an Australian Type 26 won't start until 2022.

If Australia were to go with the Type 26 I could see the in-service date pushed back to the end of the 2020s.

The F-5000 is and maybe the FREMM would seem to be the only designs that could be ready to start production in 2020.

If the Type 26 cannot start Australian construction until 2022, that would IMO eliminate the design from contention as the current Defence programme timeline for SEA 5000 has construction starting some time in 2020. Another important question for consideration is whether or not the Australian Type 26 design has been finalized and tested, as the SEA 5000 decision is supposed to be made some time this quarter (2nd quarter 2018) per Defence.

The design itself may end up being perfectly fine, but at this point I have to sort of wonder whether or not an Australianized version has been made up and modeled sufficiently for the various stakeholders to be confident enough to select it.

 

[Stampede]

To make a comparision vs the 10 years it takes to make the Type26 (specifying in the UK)

The F-105 Cristoforo Colombo F-100 fifth frigate took 5 Years and 3 months

The F-596 Federico Martinengo , the last FREMM to enter our ranks just today took 3 years and 10 months from the start of the construction to the delivery to the Navy.

Spain's Juan Carlos 1 went from concept to commissioned within 9 years.
Not a bad effort.
The RAN does not want any delays for the future Destroyer so maybe a hint towards Italy and Spain.
Nostalgia for the UK yes; Type 26 at this stage, I'd say No.

Regards S

 

[alexsa]

To make a comparision vs the 10 years it takes to make the Type26 (specifying in the UK)

The F-105 Cristoforo Colombo F-100 fifth frigate took 5 Years and 3 months

The F-596 Federico Martinengo , the last FREMM to enter our ranks just today took 3 years and 10 months from the start of the construction to the delivery to the Navy.

Sorry you are comparing the 5th vessel in a production run to the first in another. This is clearly nonsense. There will be a significant difference better a first of class in a new production cycle compared to vessels that are produced down stream, Have a look at the Hobart Class DDG as an example. You appear to have a negative view of the the T26. There are risks with a paper design but this one has greater growth potential and is designed from the ground up as an ASW asset.

The F-5000 would appear to be the lowest risk option from an Australian perspective. It misses out on electric drive but appears to have a greater weapons carriage capacity. It would also appear the ASW fit on the F-5000 may be more capable than the DDG. I am not a fan of the FREMM as there is quite a bit of rework required on this design (going from 16 cells to 32 strike length vessel may have a significant impact) noting the real estate up forwards is limited.

At the end of the day we do not know what is in the response to the RFT or what the DoD are looking for.

 

[matt00773]

To make a comparision vs the 10 years it takes to make the Type26 (specifying in the UK)

The F-105 Cristoforo Colombo F-100 fifth frigate took 5 Years and 3 months

The F-596 Federico Martinengo , the last FREMM to enter our ranks just today took 3 years and 10 months from the start of the construction to the delivery to the Navy.

You're looking different statistics across different points in shipbuilding cycles. The first FREMM was 5 and a half years from initial construction to commission.

The recent news on the T26 was about being fully operational by 2027 and with commissioning by 2025 - I have no idea where you get 10 years from. The T26 is larger and more advanced than the ships you mentioned, so the time-frame will be longer. A T45 (probably the closest comparison) was 6-7 years from initial construction to commission. The first ship - HMS Glasgow - is predicted to be in the water by 2020 as stated by the BAE Managing Director recently:

PODCAST: De-risking the Type 26 vessel, Nigel Stewart, SEA 5000 managing director, BAE Systems - Defence Connect

Timings given in parliamentary sessions like the recent statement are typically the worst case scenario and with all contingency added - I wouldn't get too hung up on them.

 

[matt00773]

I don't see any Australian version of the type 26 getting into the water before the British version. Even BAE concede that full construction of an Australian Type 26 won't start until 2022.

If Australia were to go with the Type 26 I could see the in-service date pushed back to the end of the 2020s.

The F-5000 is and maybe the FREMM would seem to be the only designs that could be ready to start production in 2020.

The in-service date for the first SEA 5000 ship is the late 2020s in any case.

As laid out in the SEA 5000 RFT (link below), the 2020 construction date refers to "Prototyping Activities" which are for proving production processes and assessing workforce readiness. The "Ship Construction" doesn't start until 24 months after the prototyping so the 2022 date from BAE matches the Australian plan. There is no design that will have ship construction starting in 2020.

http://www.defence.gov.au/FOI/Docs/Disclosures/321_1617_Documents.pdf

 

[Jack Wyatt]

The in-service date for the first SEA 5000 ship is the late 2020s in any case.

As laid out in the SEA 5000 RFT (link below), the 2020 construction date refers to "Prototyping Activities" which are for proving production processes and assessing workforce readiness. The "Ship Construction" doesn't start until 24 months after the prototyping so the 2022 date from BAE matches the Australian plan. There is no design that will have ship construction starting in 2020.

http://www.defence.gov.au/FOI/Docs/Disclosures/321_1617_Documents.pdf

Can you please provide your source for this information.

 

[matt00773]

Can you please provide your source for this information.

It's laid out in within the RFT source already provided.

Section 3.4.2:

"The Commonwealth is seeking to prove ship production processes and workforce readiness through the Commencement of Prototyping Activities in Adelaide in 2020. This production system prototyping is expected to provide increased certainty that the shipyard facilities, production systems and processes, workforce and supply chain are fully capable prior to the Commencement of Ship Construction within 24 months of Commencement of Prototyping Activities. The prototyping activities also provide an opportunity for the parties to refine project and contract management activities, such as scheduling and cost estimation and reconciliation."

There are no designs that will start build in 2020 as this is not part of the programme's plan.

 

[Jack Wyatt]

The Naval Shipbuilding Plan (link on previous page)

7.21 relates to critical timelines and references Figure 7.1 which provides an overview of the milestones. Note the timeline for the future frigate includes construction commencement in 2020.

Item 3.32 relates to the infrastructure redevelopment of Osborne South to meet the high priority requirements of the future frigate project (including program construction commencement in 2020).

In terms of what you have provided, a bidder with a mature design would imho have a competitive advantage over a bidder with a less mature design and this would be reflected in the RFT. Note Navantia on its Facebook Page refers to upskilling/increasing its workforce (if it is successful) to allow cutting of steel in 2020.

 

[matt00773]

The Naval Shipbuilding Plan (link on previous page)

7.21 relates to critical timelines and references Figure 7.1 which provides an overview of the milestones. Note the timeline for the future frigate includes construction commencement in 2020.

Item 3.32 relates to the infrastructure redevelopment of Osborne South to meet the high priority requirements of the future frigate project (including program construction commencement in 2020).

In terms of what you have provided, a bidder with a mature design would imho have a competitive advantage over a bidder with a less mature design and this would be reflected in the RFT. Note Navantia on its Facebook Page refers to upskilling/increasing its workforce (if it is successful) to allow cutting of steel in 2020.

I think you're missing the point here. The scope of the construction phase that starts in 2020 relates to prototyping activity only - the build is up to 24 months after that. Of course there's enough work to do to get the design finalised and the ship yards and workforce set up before all that begins. As far as a bid responder goes, they would have to be able to outline the schedule for prototyping laid out in sections 1.5.1 (prototyping strategy) and 1.5.2 (prototyping activities).

It may be possible for a bidder to schedule prototyping activities that enable the ship build well within the 24 months after prototyping commences, but there's risk in that as well. Going back to the original point, BAE seem to be utilising the full 24 months prior to ship construction, but that's perfectly in line with the programme plan.

​

 

[hairyman]

It looks like the ideal situation for a split buy, order two or three of either the Fremm or the Navantia F105 or whatever, with an option on a further six or seven, but dont take up the option until the T26 is in the water and in the contest for the last six or seven ships.

 

[Todjaeger]

I think you're missing the point here. The scope of the construction phase that starts in 2020 relates to prototyping activity only - the build is up to 24 months after that. Of course there's enough work to do to get the design finalised and the ship yards and workforce set up before all that begins. As far as a bid responder goes, they would have to be able to outline the schedule for prototyping laid out in sections 1.5.1 (prototyping strategy) and 1.5.2 (prototyping activities).

It may be possible for a bidder to schedule prototyping activities that enable the ship build well within the 24 months after prototyping commences, but there's risk in that as well. Going back to the original point, BAE seem to be utilising the full 24 months prior to ship construction, but that's perfectly in line with the programme plan.

The document you linked to is at present not up to date, as it mentioned a pair of options for the CMS, one being based on a Saab 9LV system modified to incorporate an Aegis FCS, the other being an Aegis CMS. The document also mentioned that the selection of CMS will occur after the submission of tenders. This RFT was made in March 2017, with the Aegis CMS selected in October 2017.

As of January 2018, Defence is expecting construction to commence in 2020 in SA.

 

[matt00773]

The document you linked to is at present not up to date, as it mentioned a pair of options for the CMS, one being based on a Saab 9LV system modified to incorporate an Aegis FCS, the other being an Aegis CMS. The document also mentioned that the selection of CMS will occur after the submission of tenders. This RFT was made in March 2017, with the Aegis CMS selected in October 2017.

As of January 2018, Defence is expecting construction to commence in 2020 in SA.

There's nothing out of ordinary about the statements in the RFT. If there's a more up to date document, please do provide the source.

There were two CMS options stated and one of them was indeed selected - "a US Aegis Combat Management System based on the version currently being used in the Air Warfare Destroyers". The timing of the CMS selection was indeed after the submission of tenders. What exactly is the problem? What was presented in the RFT was exactly how it played out.

There's no doubt either as to the timing of construction - which is indeed 2020 and stated as such in the RFT. However, this will be a prototyping phase which will then lead on to full ship construction up to 24 months after this starts. The relevant RFT section is stated below:

3.4 Commencement of Construction in Adelaide in 2020

3.4.1 The Commonwealth requires the Project to achieve the Commonwealth's schedule requirements, including Commencement of Prototyping Activities in Adelaide in 2020.
3.4.2 The Commonwealth is seeking to prove ship production processes and workforce readiness through the Commencement of Prototyping Activities in Adelaide in 2020. This production system prototyping is expected to provide increased certainty that the shipyard facilities, production systems and processes, workforce and supply chain are fully capable prior to the Commencement of Ship Construction within 24 months of Commencement of Prototyping Activities. The prototyping activities also provide an opportunity for the parties to refine project and contract management activities, such as scheduling and cost estimation and reconciliation.

Edit: Rephrasing statements

 

[oldsig127]

It looks like the ideal situation for a split buy, order two or three of either the Fremm or the Navantia F105 or whatever, with an option on a further six or seven, but dont take up the option until the T26 is in the water and in the contest for the last six or seven ships.

The notion of a split buy has been raised repeatedly and makes no sense from any perspective except the desire to point at what a variety of different ships we have to support through their useful life

oldsig

 

[oldsig127]

3.4 Commencement of Construction in Adelaide in 2020

3.4.1 The Commonwealth requires the Project to achieve the Commonwealth's schedule requirements, including Commencement of Prototyping Activities in Adelaide in 2020.
3.4.2 The Commonwealth is seeking to prove ship production processes and workforce readiness through the Commencement of Prototyping Activities in Adelaide in 2020. This production system prototyping is expected to provide increased certainty that the shipyard facilities, production systems and processes, workforce and supply chain are fully capable prior to the Commencement of Ship Construction within 24 months of Commencement of Prototyping Activities. The prototyping activities also provide an opportunity for the parties to refine project and contract management activities, such as scheduling and cost estimation and reconciliation.

I read this as "Now that we know what we're going to build, in 2020 we commence prototyping the process used to get from paper (digital) to finished item nine times in the duration of the project and confirm that contracts in place with suppliers and sub contractors work as imagined. I have to say that if I were project managing, I'd be more confident if that process was being proven on the same ship it is intended to be used to build.

In so far as that goes, in my opinion it's a ato construction activities

oldsig

 

[Meriv90]

Sorry you are comparing the 5th vessel in a production run to the first in another. This is clearly nonsense. There will be a significant difference better a first of class in a new production cycle compared to vessels that are produced down stream, Have a look at the Hobart Class DDG as an example. You appear to have a negative view of the the T26. There are risks with a paper design but this one has greater growth potential and is designed from the ground up as an ASW asset.

The F-5000 would appear to be the lowest risk option from an Australian perspective. It misses out on electric drive but appears to have a greater weapons carriage capacity. It would also appear the ASW fit on the F-5000 may be more capable than the DDG. I am not a fan of the FREMM as there is quite a bit of rework required on this design (going from 16 cells to 32 strike length vessel may have a significant impact) noting the real estate up forwards is limited.

At the end of the day we do not know what is in the response to the RFT or what the DoD are looking for.

Exactly because i see the good sides of the Type, since the FREMM doesn't have a growth potential, I must underline the bad sides no?

About prototype time the F-101 Took 5 years and two months, so there wasn't a difference between the first and last ship of the series.

The first FREMM took 5 years and 3 months.

And yes the F-5000 is clearly your best option, but it doesn't mean i cant be a fan boy for my team.

 

[John Fedup]

I wonder which outcome would most match the sub announcement on the surprise scale, FREMM or Type 26? Like many here I feel the Navantia option is most likely.