Royal New Zealand Air Force

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Umm huh? I do not know who or what transtasmen is, am I supposed to?
Published weekly since 1968 Trans Tasman is a beltway publication to what’s happening in politics, the economy, legislation and regulations in Wellington and Canberra used by lobbyists, political and business media, corporates and other institutions with a level of information and observation often more detailed, specialised and considered than the reading age of 12 stuff that gets on TV or in the MSM.

BTW you could have PM'ed to ask this question Reg and focused on the content of the post.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
Published weekly since 1968 Trans Tasman is a beltway publication to what’s happening in politics, the economy, legislation and regulations in Wellington and Canberra used by lobbyists, political and business media, corporates and other institutions with a level of information and observation often more detailed, specialised and considered than the reading age of 12 stuff that gets on TV or in the MSM.

BTW you could have PM'ed to ask this question Reg and focused on the content of the post.
I'm glad he did. Can gossip plebs like me get access to it?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I suppose there is no way of really knowing how many Kiwis are flying for other 5 eyes partners, there may be scope for initial chain of knowledgeable servicemen to kick start the NZ ACF program
Pilot wise Ex ACF guys went mostly to the RAF and RAAF and a few are still flying. They are in their late 30's to mid 40's now. A few from the roster are now flying wide bodies. Other non flying staff are working in the private sector.

You contract in what is required anyway - those "knowledgeable servicemen" will most likely be civilians and really it would not matter if they wer ex RCAF, RAAF, USN or USMC or once flew or supported RNZAF A-4's 20 years ago when quitre junior. The last thing you would find is the RNZAF recruiting newbie folk for everything from QFI's and the teaboy and spending the years following training them from scratch to do it all in house. You simply tender out the services required to support the basing and operation of the aircraft other than flying them.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Published weekly since 1968 Trans Tasman is a beltway publication to what’s happening in politics, the economy, legislation and regulations in Wellington and Canberra used by lobbyists, political and business media, corporates and other institutions with a level of information and observation often more detailed, specialised and considered than the reading age of 12 stuff that gets on TV or in the MSM.

BTW you could have PM'ed to ask this question Reg and focused on the content of the post.
Could do but then not very informative to the forum as a whole that way is it.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm glad he did. Can gossip plebs like me get access to it?
You can subscribe but it is very expensive ($100's per annum) for an email newsletter. The larger public libraries and universities usually have a copy.

Shane how about sticking to the RNZAF thread and again PM people if you want to know something specific that does not relate generally to the topic.

This is what the PM is for on DefTalk.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Could do but then not very informative to the forum as a whole that way is it.
But it was wandering off topic. We have to be careful to stick to the RNZAF which potentially has an interesting development relating to a topic of high discussion interest, ACF regeneration of some sort that a few years ago was basically pointless as it was then going nowhere.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I know.this sounds negative, but I can't help but think that if NZ ACF is raised, all other areas in defence will suffer.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I know.this sounds negative, but I can't help but think that if NZ ACF is raised, all other areas in defence will suffer.
Why should that be the case? The argument could be also made that since the RNZAF currently lacks an ACF it has already suffered and continues to do so.

For example - do other countries suffer by having an air combat capability? Did we also suffer during the 60 years we maintained combat aircraft and maintained other defence assets?

We can afford to buy and operate an air combat capability without the necessity to borrow billions to do so. Not one cent of the $20B until 2030 will be borrowed unlike other countries which essentially are borrowing billions to support defence industries as part of their industrial - employment policy.

Where we buy our future surface combatants will have a far greater effect on the NZDF Cap Ex budget than operating a squadron of air combat aircraft. That is probably why we will be looking elsewhere in the future in an open competitive process to replace the ANZAC's.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Why should that be the case? The argument could be also made that since the RNZAF currently lacks an ACF it has already suffered and continues to do so.

For example - do other countries suffer by having an air combat capability? Did we also suffer during the 60 years we maintained combat aircraft and maintained other defence assets?

We can afford to buy and operate an air combat capability without the necessity to borrow billions to do so. Not one cent of the $20B until 2030 will be borrowed unlike other countries which essentially are borrowing billions to support defence industries as part of their industrial - employment policy.

Where we buy our future surface combatants will have a far greater effect on the NZDF Cap Ex budget than operating a squadron of air combat aircraft. That is probably why we will be looking elsewhere in the future in an open competitive process to replace the ANZAC's.
It would come down to funding IMO. If no extra funding is provided for the Personnel and Operating budgets then the NZDF would likely suffer by trying to achieve too much with too little. The CAPEX budget could certainly fund the purchase, but that is only to acquire the aircraft/capability, not sustain or make use of the capability.

From numbers I got looking at the 2015-2016 NZDF annual report (see the NZDF thread) the Operating budget was NZD$737.7 mil. Back when then A-4K Skyhawks were still in service, the ACF had a cost of ~NZD$200 mil. p.a. for operations, personnel, maintenance, etc. I do not know the precise breakdown of the costs, but even with the potential for more efficient operations due to contracting out some functions and keeping the Personnel budget separate, I cannot imagine the Operating budget would now be less than NZD$100 mil. p.a. Given inflation, it could easily be quite a bit higher (like NZD$170+ mil. p.a.) but even NZD$100 mil. would force other Operating activities within the NZDF to be curtailed or outright suspended.

The other alternative would be for the NZDF to attempt to retain all currently existing equipment and capabilities, while adding an ACF back in. However that would likely lead to the under funding of various NZDF kit and capabilities leading to kit decaying, a lack of sufficient training, malfunctions and loss of (or failure to retain) skills. Not to make light of the likely tragic loss of the ARA San Juan, but the condition of the Argentine Air Force, Army, and Navy is what happens when budgeting is inadequate and capabilities are not scaled back. Indeed, the Argentine Air Force still lists the various Mirage aircraft and derivatives as being in the inventory when Argentine news articles from mid-2015 indicate their retirement was imminent and were otherwise limited to daylight VFR operations.

I would really hate to see NZ follow the above model, as it would become a question not of if, but when, there is a failure which results in death or injury to personnel, and damage or loss of kit and infrastructure.
 

Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
You can subscribe but it is very expensive ($100's per annum) for an email newsletter. The larger public libraries and universities usually have a copy.

Shane how about sticking to the RNZAF thread and again PM people if you want to know something specific that does not relate generally to the topic.

This is what the PM is for on DefTalk.
Understood. I'll stay on topic
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Tod was that figure taking into account a funding increase released this year?

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/982m-funding-boost-defence

New Zealand’s Defence Force will receive a $406 million boost in operating funding over four years and $576 million in capital as part of Budget 2017, says Defence Minister Mark Mitchell.

If the ACF was re-established id imagine operating budget will be taken into account, but agree if not it has the potential to impact the remainder of the NZDF
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Tod was that figure taking into account a funding increase released this year?

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/982m-funding-boost-defence




If the ACF was re-established id imagine operating budget will be taken into account, but agree if not it has the potential to impact the remainder of the NZDF
Unfortunately once again what you mentioned is just a short term, replacement and upgrade of current capabilities. Not a long term sustainment of such. I'm concerned what Labour's plans are in the future for Nzdf, given thier track record I wouldn't be surprised if corners are cut and we end up with second hand commercial airlifters to replace 757 , or a similar path for losv ,sopv to how Hmnzs Canterbury got built.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
From numbers I got looking at the 2015-2016 NZDF annual report (see the NZDF thread) the Operating budget was NZD$737.7 mil. Back when then A-4K Skyhawks were still in service, the ACF had a cost of ~NZD$200 mil. p.a. for operations, personnel, maintenance, etc. I do not know the precise breakdown of the costs, but even with the potential for more efficient operations due to contracting out some functions and keeping the Personnel budget separate, I cannot imagine the Operating budget would now be less than NZD$100 mil. p.a. Given inflation, it could easily be quite a bit higher (like NZD$170+ mil. p.a.) but even NZD$100 mil. would force other Operating activities within the NZDF to be curtailed or outright suspended.
All up A-4's of 75 and 2 Sqd cost $90m in their last year full year of operation of operation and 14 Sqd around $60m with the remaining $50m built up of the capital charge and costs associated with the cancellation their replacement and redundancy of the supporting 700 staff.

I take it as a given that an increase of OpEx dollars would have to be set aside to operate this capability. Lets assume efficiencies can be made via contracting in support services and the institutional foot print reduced along with an increase in RNZAF appropriation of $75m p.a or circa 10% bringing it to around $800m per annum for the RNZAF may reveal that this is entirely doable and affordable without impacting the rest of the NZDF or RNZAF if that increase in appropriation was made and sustained.

How 14th Sqd / CFS is run today with substantial contracted in support from Hawker and other civilian contractors shows how things can be done.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I don't know if going down the path of ex RAAF FA-18As and Bs is the right idea in the long term. If we were to go down the path of used aircraft, then my viewpoint is that the F-16 would be the better pathway. It is in service in vastly more numbers and has a well used upgrade path with the latest variant upgrades coming online. The USAF has started to upgrade some of their F-16s to the V variant standard and it appears to me to be the less riskier path.
 

danonz

Member
I think it will be an up hill battle for Ron Mark at least he will try and get the capability back.

If the labour lead government approves any form of acf, I’d love to see Helen Clark’s reaction :eek:nfloorl:

I take it it’s a solely cabnet decision not some thing nzf can get national alongside with, like personal member bills?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Tod was that figure taking into account a funding increase released this year?

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/982m-funding-boost-defence
No, the figure was from the 2015-2016 Annual Review. It is also worth noting that a NZD$406 mil. over four years works out to just NZD$101.5 mil.and then there is the question of what was considered "operating funds". In the Annual Review, there were separate funding entries for Operating and then Personnel. If all extra $100 mil. went to actual operations, then that would be a significant expansion, albeit not a long-term expansion unless it gets reauthorized after four years. Also I am not certain that $100 mil. would be enough to add a capability like an ACF back. I could easily see how HADR and/or SAR operation could eat into any/all 'extra' Operating funding.

All up A-4's of 75 and 2 Sqd cost $90m in their last year full year of operation of operation and 14 Sqd around $60m with the remaining $50m built up of the capital charge and costs associated with the cancellation their replacement and redundancy of the supporting 700 staff.

I take it as a given that an increase of OpEx dollars would have to be set aside to operate this capability. Lets assume efficiencies can be made via contracting in support services and the institutional foot print reduced along with an increase in RNZAF appropriation of $75m p.a or circa 10% bringing it to around $800m per annum for the RNZAF may reveal that this is entirely doable and affordable without impacting the rest of the NZDF or RNZAF if that increase in appropriation was made and sustained.

How 14th Sqd / CFS is run today with substantial contracted in support from Hawker and other civilian contractors shows how things can be done.
I would be interested in finding out what the costs were to operate the A-4's for each year of the last three or four years of service, as well as what has been the inflation rate since then.

Also of interest is what the costs would be for the RNZAF to send Kiwi pilots overseas for LIFT. I suspect it would be a fraction of the NZD$60 mil. for 14 Sqd that used to be spent, but would still need to be factored in.

Contracting support in NZ could be used to reduce some of the costs to support an ACF while in NZ, but viable arrangements would also be needed to support the ACF if/when it deploys away from NZ. A training deployment to Oz likely would not be a major issue, but an actual combat deployment or operations in an area of hostility or major potential for incidents could be another story. The US experiences relying upon civilian contractors like KBR for 'cost-efficient' support in combat zones can illustrate how it is sometimes better to keep the support functions 'in-house'.

TBH I would think that a 20% increase, or more, would really be called for to raise an ACF again at it appears that modern aircraft have much higher operating costs, even adjusting for inflation, than the Skyhawks used to have. Yes, there might be less need for actual flight hours by using simulators, I doubt one could cut flight ops in half and rely upon sims, without there being a negative impact on operations.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The first thing is that Transtasman would not have published the speculation without their being truth to it and from at least two solid sources - quite often the source is very close to the action. It is where politicians / advisors go to fly kites, raise flags, leak, build policy momentum. We also know that Mr Mark has very definite and strong views on the necessity of regaining an air combat ability and obviously has instructed official into investigations into this. Credit to him for getting this back on the agenda - and should National now out of office have the cajones to endorse it and not go all vindictive because it is an NZ First idea - it could move ahead further in at least the discussion.

The Singa's coming here will utilise what remains and with the OH infrastructure upgrade and the investment by the RSAF cuts from the chase the usual objections trundled out that we would have to start from scratch with nothing. The RNZAF and the RSAF could go halves in the hush house that was to be built for the cancelled F-16's and was going to cost $8m (2001). Also nothing is done the same now or done the same as other countries. NZ contracts in services to the NZDF as it saves money and this would be no different. Thus cost comparisons between employing 700 people like under the old ACF arrangements pre 2000 cannot be reliably extrapolated.

As for LIFT training one option mentioned to me by an ex RAF knuck now living here is a small number of selected pilots post our T-6 wings course should be sent to UKMFTS at RAF Valley under a RNZAF contract scheme thus skipping the requirement for NZ to acquire a LIFT. The UKMFTS is a PPP arrangement between the UK MOD and industry we would be a paying customer - cheaper than ownership and running our LIFT programme which would be very RAF style anyway. Likewise post UKMFTS possibly work out a contract arrangement with a current F-18 unit viz USMC, USN, RAAF or RCAF to have NZ pilots complete their weapons courses, instructor courses etc using our own upgraded aircraft.

As for the condition of the aircraft - well negative speculation is nothing more than that. What we do know is that they have been well looked after in professional hands in the RAAF and have not spent 6000 hours been thrashed onto carrier decks like their USN and USMC cousins.

We also know that there is currently a very successful UMSC led project where legacy Hornets are been refurbished and upgraded to C+ status to at least provide a further 2000 hours of operational life. So what if they have to be replaced at a later date - post 2030 something.

Note: The 2015 USMC Aircraft Plan

F/A-18 SERVICE LIFE MANAGEMENT PROGRAM (SLMP)
The current Center Barrel Replacement Plus (CBR+) program has extended the
service life of 200 Lot 17 and below aircraft to 1.0 Wing Root Fatigue Life Extension
(WRFLE). The current High Flight Hour (HFH) inspection has extended the life of 110 DoN F/A-18A-D aircraft beyond 8000 hours with 129 aircraft currently in work.


We also know that it will take some years to build up the capability to OLOC but that is understood - but what are people expecting - instant karma.

We have locked in $18.3 billion on Cap Ex and $1.7 billion to spend on defence infrastructure until 2030. There will be possible trade offs - for example KC-130J-SOC's and a couple of C-2's rather than A400M's. Frigates built in Korean like FFX-III's or Japan like the 30DX rather than Type 26, FREMM or F-110's of which frankly there has not been that great enthusiasm for in NZ circles.

The RAAF are not going to keep all the F/A-18AM's and BM's flying until all the F-35's are in service they will go out the hanger no doubt on a swap in swap out basis. Even if the Cannucks grab the first 18, there should be a further 18 worth looking at to upgrade.

This is a less expensive bullet to bite to recover a capability lost. Frankly the argument that we Kiwi's don't need some kind of ACF is often made by those who are not actually Kiwis and whose own countries actually have a current ACF capability yet are quick to justify their own necessities for their own national interests - well that is called hypocrisy and I am very suspicious of their motives to be honest.

Cheers, MrC
Sums it up rather well, while there are other possibilities this I would say is as good as any.
 

kaz

Member
I wouldn't mind any air force keeping a fleet of C-130's around together with the newer and bigger transports.

Speaking of transports, the C-2 is supposed to arrive at NZ today and is there to stay for a week.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have read the last few pages and I am in the "this actually quite sensible camp" and far easier and cheaper than the alternatives.

Lets get back to what NZ First policy exactly is - as we discussed 2 months ago;

We will restore New Zealand’s strike capability with a small advanced force of jet trainer and combat aircraft.


This about developing capability in a methodical cost effective manner that is a strategic capability hedge (a fundamental point why nations invest and maintain military equipment - and begs the question why should we not be any different in this circumstance) and is NOT about immediately reconstructing a pre 2001 3 squadron ACW again.

It is about the first step to get back on track to rebuild that strategic capability hedge. The long term focus may be to develop into a 3 squadron wing of multi-role fighters or it may be a single squadron with a EW/EA focus. Either way first steps need to be taken.

If you want interim capacity building to achieve a goal in 10 years you need to build up and plan to get to there.

If I wanted to achieve a policy goal like stated above I would be frankly feeling quite fortunate that a number of things are now favourably lining up.

1. The very real possibility one of the best and largest Air Forces in the region is setting up an air combat training centre in my back yard and is keen to expand that relationship and engagement as well as invest into it.

2. That there are a range of quality LIFT programs out there as that can avoid me the cost of buying and managing the training capability ourselves and quickly assist us in achieving competency sooner and not reinvent the wheel.

3. That our nearest neighbour and defence ally has possibly available some capable combat aircraft and spares et al in the INTERIM that should be perfectly fine as a development pathway to a later higher level 4+/5 combat aircraft and spares for what I may possibly be a very reasonable price and will provide less headaches.

4. The training pathway potentially could be a lot easier. I did not consider this until an interesting phone call earlier with a mate in that the NZG could own the OZ aircraft and initially keep them based OZside for a provisional training and transitory period whilst they still fly the type - i.e flown by RNZAF pilots alongside RAAF pilots in their OCU. Business as usual, same planes but with a kiwi stencilled rather than a Roo, the pilot a Crusaders supporter rather than the Tah's, and the NZ Govt picking up their share of the tab as part of the agreement of sale and transfer. When the legacy Hornets are finally retired from RAAF service we gas up and go home to OH where our Singa mates and the F-15'SGs will be waiting. Meanwhile send some guys overseas to become qualified weapons instructors to Canada or the USMC etc.

5. Finally, can people say with certainty and actuality that a FMS of ex USAF F/A-16's without any upgrades sitting in early block configuration in the desert with the same amount of hours and age is going to be easier and faster than current operating and upgraded F/A-18's under a direct ITAR's approved OZ-NZ sale and transfer. Aircraft that we can be agnostic whether or not we upgrade them for the interim period. Noting that often those US FMS deals involve strings attached such as contracts to 'regenerate' them using US companies. Our cancelled F-16's were as cheap as chips per MDE - the cost was in getting them regenerated, tested and shipped.

Cheers, MrC
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In the late 1990's the parliamentary "Select committee on defence" was informed that the actual operating costs of the A4's in 75 and 2 sqn, excluding shared costs and capital charge etc was $30m .
The scenario put up by Mr C makes a lot of sense, and what we must remember is that there must be a fairly long transitional period. The embedding of kiwi pilots in the RAAF would be a good way forward, along with a gradual separation into a separate unit. long term if the RAAF decided to replace its SH's with F35's then the possibility would exist for the RNZAF to upgrade into this area.
 
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