Naval Ship & Submarine Propulsion Systems

[gf0012-aust]

The future submarine project: one step, two step

I've just read the linked article by Mark Thompson and Andrew Davies which discusses how we should deal with the SEA 1000 CEP results.
Even though they condemn the lack of utility in the process, the conclusion they reach makes sense to me, which is words to the effect that - we must decide whether we want a strategic partner or an industrial partner in the submarine process. If the answer is strategic, then cut to the core, stop faffing around and get on with finessing the Japanese submission and build it.

If there was a like button for ASPI articles I would have used it.

I had a sit down discussion with Andrew D a few months back re japanese subs and options going forward re them - it was a healthy discussion even though we had some technical disagreements re the potential to mod them for RAN

one of the things that all these state politicians and journos who've been courted and feted by the euro sub builders is the fact that the oyashios/soryu's have the highest availability rate of any conventional sub anywhere - and in fact are a challenger to nuke availability rates - it kind of helps when you have an actual sub to sell rather than a glossy powerpoint option yet to be realised in real steel

kind of made me smile when I saw the puff piece on the soryus the other day - all the things we discussed in here re their advantages about 12 months ago were cropping up as though they were a new found secret that the journo had discovered.

maybe they should start trawling forums like this - although that won't give you a sea jolly so would be far less attractive ....

my ears bled when he was attempting to describe AIP

 

[gf0012-aust]

Meanwhile...

France is out torpedoing Japanese submarine bid

Let the race begin!

what a wanker

remove nukes and Japan becomes the 2nd most powerful navy in the world.

they also have more subs than France, and a far more connected surface fleet.

 

[StingrayOZ]

what a wanker

remove nukes and Japan becomes the 2nd most powerful navy in the world.

they also have more subs than France, and a far more connected surface fleet.

Isn't Japans surface fleet many times that of France, and has something like 37 Destroyers? France has ~10? I wonder how often France operates subs in the SCS?

Still I believe we have to look at the French and German proposals, if just for transparency. Making a captains call will be like the F-35 all over again (we had to look at it twice!) and Collins all over again (which again did have a process but many questioned it), it will make it a political football. Due process should be conducted. It should be clear what we are signing up to.

I would also say there has been a fair bit of politicians being educated on subs and full national discussion. Which of a project of this size and importance, its completely reasonable.

Plus exactly what kind of a deal are we getting with the Japanese submarine program. I think it has probably been good for leverage and clarification as all 3 have come out with details that may not have been considered or specified as a "quick handshake deal".

 

[gf0012-aust]

Isn't Japans surface fleet many times that of France, and has something like 37 Destroyers? France has ~10? I wonder how often France operates subs in the SCS?

Still I believe we have to look at the French and German proposals, if just for transparency. Making a captains call will be like the F-35 all over again (we had to look at it twice!) and Collins all over again (which again did have a process but many questioned it), it will make it a political football. Due process should be conducted. It should be clear what we are signing up to.

I would also say there has been a fair bit of politicians being educated on subs and full national discussion. Which of a project of this size and importance, its completely reasonable.

Plus exactly what kind of a deal are we getting with the Japanese submarine program. I think it has probably been good for leverage and clarification as all 3 have come out with details that may not have been considered or specified as a "quick handshake deal".

There is a fundamental truth in place here - the french and german proposals are vapourware - the very thing that the swedes were criticised for. The Japanese sub is a legacy design of what was regarded as the most acoustically perfect conventional sub in the world - and its been operational under its own steam for 2 japanese design generations - let alone the legacy design

sure, get an open tender, but lets suspend according stupid comments made by other vendors who have a fundamental desire to compete and knock off the only viable threat - as being of relevance to the acquisition and assessment debate

the Oyashios were nicknamed nuke killers when I worked in acoustics - the french subs at the same capability level just don't exist - no matter how many glossy posters they print

I'd take any german offering over a french one as they do have a strong and evidence based history - but again, their offering is vaporware

ask any builder and engineer what happens when you're dealing with a greenfield solution, risks and problems go up irrespective of how good the team is.

the only subs that have survived that paradigm have been the Virginias, the Oyashios and the Soryus. In fact the Virginias were built around japanese manufacturing constructs - I have a pretty clear memory of the Virginia project lead (RADM level) telling a room full of us about how much they learnt from the japanese design, development and build models

we shouldn't suspend logic and or reality just because some fool is trying to make cheap shots at their opponents and where those statement won't stand the test of applied thought in capability or engineering terms..

 

[John Newman]

There is a fundamental truth in place here - the french and german proposals are vapourware - the very thing that the swedes were criticised for. The Japanese sub is a legacy design of what was regarded as the most acoustically perfect conventional sub in the world - and its been operational under its own steam for 2 japanese design generations - let alone the legacy design

sure, get an open tender, but lets suspend according stupid comments made by other vendors who have a fundamental desire to compete and knock off the only viable threat - as being of relevance to the acquisition and assessment debate

the Oyashios were nicknamed nuke killers when I worked in acoustics - the french subs at the same capability level just don't exist - no matter how many glossy posters they print

I'd take any german offering over a french one as they do have a strong and evidence based history - but again, their offering is vaporware

ask any builder and engineer what happens when you're dealing with a greenfield solution, risks and problems go up irrespective of how good the team is.

the only subs that have survived that paradigm have been the Virginias, the Oyashios and the Soryus. In fact the Virginias were built around japanese manufacturing constructs - I have a pretty clear memory of the Virginia project lead (RADM level) telling a room full of us about how much they learnt from the japanese design, development and build models

we shouldn't suspend logic and or reality just because some fool is trying to make cheap shots at their opponents and where those statement won't stand the test of applied thought in capability or engineering terms..

As usual from GF, a clear, concise and accurate version of reality, and from someone who has professional knowledge in this field too.

I can't help but think that (with my limited knowledge) that we would be mad to not select an evolved Soryu, even if (and that is a very big 'if' too) in the end there was a 'split hair' in technical capabilities between the three contenders, I think that in the big picture and especially long term too, that a partnership with Japan is going to be a win win for both our nations.

And it's not just going to be a long term partnership with Japan, it's also going to be a three way partnership with Australia, Japan and the USA too.

I can only see long term benefits, very long term benefits, if all three nations work closely together for many decades to come in ensuring that we all achieve our respective and collective objectives, again, it's a win win to my way of thinking.

I can't help but think that a long term relationship with Japan (a nation that has, since 1971, produced five (5) separate classes of conventional submarines, to date 41 boats have been commissioned in 44 years, near enough to one a year, near enough to a 'continuous' build program that you would ever see outside of the USA), can only lead to the RAN having the best of the best for many many years and decades to come.

 

[StingrayOZ]

we shouldn't suspend logic and or reality just because some fool is trying to make cheap shots at their opponents and where those statement won't stand the test of applied thought in capability or engineering terms..

100% agree. The Germans have been a fair bit more restrained usually at least put forward factual points, even if they have been a bit liberal with costings etc. The proof is in the pudding, I would like to see how much french subs actually cost when they are actually in the water. I'm no expert but it seems like there are issues in the French Barracuda build program (delays, cost blowouts) and the Brazillian program might have exploded before it really began. Not exactly confidence inspiring.

I would hope our process can clearly see through this BS. Not doubt the French will put bids in for other projects (Sea5000, OCV etc), I would hope our processes can survive such attempts.

Personally the more I hear about the Japanese sub program the smarter it seems to be. I hope we adopt the whole picture, build program and all and not just the sub design. If we adopt a Japanese design, but a typical Australian build program, won't we be back where we started?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I can't help but think that a long term relationship with Japan (a nation that has, since 1971, produced five (5) separate classes of conventional submarines, to date 41 boats have been commissioned in 44 years, near enough to one a year, near enough to a 'continuous' build program that you would ever see outside of the USA), can only lead to the RAN having the best of the best for many many years and decades to come.

As you would know, some of us have been extolling the virtues of japanese subs for the last 8 years - well before Abbott jumped in and by association, damaged the opportunity for them to be considered without the baggage of politics.

having the french vendor wax lyrical about being brothers in arms over current troubles and that a french sub would cement the relationship further is just plain insulting to ones intelligence - even after a dozen beers.

they should be excluded from consideration for making asinine comments .....

from a capability perspective alone they are so far behind the 8 ball its not funny.

 

[Joe Black]

Just out of curiosity. Would we be able to incorporate a pumpjet propulsion system into an evolved Soryu class?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I hope we adopt the whole picture, build program and all and not just the sub design.

I'm more afraid that people like xenophon will catch the bus of self promotion and end up sabotaging what is a better capability through some stupid political posturing

If we adopt a Japanese design, but a typical Australian build program, won't we be back where we started?

Nope, because contrary to public domain chat, ASC are more than capable of doing the build, and the relationship will be leveraging off the US as well as Japan. ie think of what the US went through with the Japanese on setting up the Virginias - they have lessons learnt that we are already aware of - and the USN and USG is highly motivated to make sure that the Japanese solution works. - they are highly motivated to make it work with Japan and will do what ever is needed to facilitate it

If we can remove as much of the political theatre as possible, and let people with prior relevant and actual experience get on with it - and if Govt and opposition can suspend their peurile antics and work to the common defence good, then it will work.

Its a big ask, but as both sides of this govt have contributed to the poor program management and execution of the Collins contract, then lets hope that they can shutup and let people do their job.

 

[kaz]

At this point, MHI and the JSDF have nothing on the table that I'll consider a suitable replacement or contender. The closest equivalent being the JMSDF's proposed 30DX whose capabilities are short of the demands of an Anzac replacement as far as its mockups show.

 

[gf0012-aust]

MHI said some of the technology used in constructing high-pressure hulls would be useful to Australia for both undersea gas *extraction and conventional shipbuilding and it has pledged to transfer this expertise."

this is already happening.......

 

[gf0012-aust]

At this point, MHI and the JSDF have nothing on the table that I'll consider a suitable replacement or contender. The closest equivalent being the JMSDF's proposed 30DX whose capabilities are short of the demands of an Anzac replacement as far as its mockups show.

its not about hulls - its about the combat systems and broader fleet integration - ie combat operating picture issues

on that basis they're a golden mile ahead of anyone but the US and UK - and UK aren't even in the game.

 

[Volkodav]

its not about hulls - its about the combat systems and broader fleet integration - ie combat operating picture issues

on that basis they're a golden mile ahead of anyone but the US and UK - and UK aren't even in the game.

Not sure which is which but I have been told that one of the Japanese submarine yards is state of the art and just about everyone could learn from them, while the other is nowhere near as modern and capable as ASCs Adelaide facility with only the advantages of Japans continuous build giving it an edge in productivity. Some Japanese companies and industries are among the best if not the best in the world, others are carried and protected, fed work to the detriment of better performers, domestic and global, that are denied access to the market.

Would be very happy to see Japanese design, or even co-designed vessels serving the RAN. Don't know about specific in-service JMSDF types as while they are technically excellent many also have been compromised by political requirements, i.e. limiting offensive capabilities to satisfy pacifist requirements and reassure neighbours that they do not harbour expansionist or imperial ambitions. Must admit I have always thought many objections to Japanese defence capability to be hypocritical, i.e. China complaining about Japans' aircraft carriers (actually helicopter carriers or escort) destabilising the region while putting their own strike carrier through trials and announcing their intent to continue building a blue water strike capability.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Not sure which is which but I have been told that one of the Japanese submarine yards is state of the art and just about everyone could learn from them, while the other is nowhere near as modern and capable as ASCs Adelaide facility with only the advantages of Japans continuous build giving it an edge in productivity. Some Japanese companies and industries are among the best if not the best in the world, others are carried and protected, fed work to the detriment of better performers, domestic and global, that are denied access to the market.

Would be very happy to see Japanese design, or even co-designed vessels serving the RAN. Don't know about specific in-service JMSDF types as while they are technically excellent many also have been compromised by political requirements, i.e. limiting offensive capabilities to satisfy pacifist requirements and reassure neighbours that they do not harbour expansionist or imperial ambitions. Must admit I have always thought many objections to Japanese defence capability to be hypocritical, i.e. China complaining about Japans' aircraft carriers (actually helicopter carriers or escort) destabilising the region while putting their own strike carrier through trials and announcing their intent to continue building a blue water strike capability.

I distinctly recall the Virginia project manager stating in the clear that the japanese were the benchmark in how to do an efficient build - they developed processes to emulate what the japanese did with the Oyashio's - which are the original baseline for the Soryus - one would assume that the japanese refined the process beyond then

it makes me a tad bemused when I see some of the flack being used to try and discredit the japanese when they really are the benchmark

some of the stuff being fed to Xenophon is just trite nonsense - and he's been gullible enough to parrot it back as he assumes that everyone who dribbles stuff to him is pure of motive.

shoot me now if we get a bastardised barracuda. I can live with a fat 200 series but IMO on every metric I know of, and based on my own exp across different levels, it really should be a one horse race

.... but politics will rear its ugly head no doubt....

 

[Joe Black]

shoot me now if we get a bastardised barracuda. I can live with a fat 200 series but IMO on every metric I know of, and based on my own exp across different levels, it really should be a one horse race

.... but politics will rear its ugly head no doubt....

hahaha, gf, you really dislike the French huh. Perhaps you are an Englishman, no?

I hear what you say about the French built, and the US distrusting the French... but I do like jet propulsion a lot. Plus the fact that the Shortfin Barracuda promises to have the highest transit speed. Soryu might be very good in the noise department, but they have to be mod'ed to provide similar transit performance to equal if not surpass that of the Collins. I suppose the proof of the pudding is in the eating of it, or in the submarine case, the sailing of it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

hahaha, gf, you really dislike the French huh. Perhaps you are an Englishman, no?

Not at all, when I started in subs the parent company who owned the technology was french. I'm not english - I'm australian

I hear what you say about the French built, and the US distrusting the French... but I do like jet propulsion a lot. Plus the fact that the Shortfin Barracuda promises to have the highest transit speed. Soryu might be very good in the noise department, but they have to be mod'ed to provide similar transit performance to equal if not surpass that of the Collins. I suppose the proof of the pudding is in the eating of it, or in the submarine case, the sailing of it.

subs aren't about speed - hanging our hat on transit speed is like buying a cheesecake because it has eggs used to make it, and that you like eggs.

you do realise that the australian proposal from the french doesn't exist? its the same problem that everyone got excited about years ago

its a paper design

good luck with engineering and integration issues on a paper sub where our principle suppliers will be wanting IP firewalls that will slow down the process to an unworkable level and will add delay

good luck with getting fast tracking on FMS and ITARS issues (if approval at all)

no thanks - apart from the sexy marketing - the barracuda fails a string of reality checks and tests

 

[Volkodav]

Not at all, when I started in subs the parent company who owned the technology was french. I'm not english - I'm australian



subs aren't about speed - hanging our hat on transit speed is like buying a cheesecake because it has eggs used to make it, and that you like eggs.

you do realise that the australian proposal from the french doesn't exist? its the same problem that everyone got excited about years ago

its a paper design

good luck with engineering and integration issues on a paper sub where our principle suppliers will be wanting IP firewalls that will slow down the process to an unworkable level and will add delay

good luck with getting fast tracking on FMS and ITARS issues (if approval at all)

no thanks - apart from the sexy marketing - the barracuda fails a string of reality checks and tests

To be honest I can't think of a single French buy that hasn't caused the ADF grief. Mirage, Success (Durance), MU-90, Tiger, MRH-90, even the Hotchkiss MG issued to the Light Horse in WWI apparently wasn't fit for purpose, nor did it work as intended. We forget after a decade or two, go back and get bitten again. Love the concept and look of a lot of a lot of French gear, just despair at execution and lack of honesty over performance, development status and cost.

 

[gf0012-aust]

To be honest I can't think of a single French buy that hasn't caused the ADF grief. Mirage, Success (Durance), MU-90, Tiger, MRH-90, even the Hotchkiss MG issued to the Light Horse in WWI apparently wasn't fit for purpose, nor did it work as intended. We forget after a decade or two, go back and get bitten again. Love the concept and look of a lot of a lot of French gear, just despair at execution and lack of honesty over performance, development status and cost.

we have a winner

"Love the concept and look of a lot of a lot of French gear, just despair at execution and lack of honesty over performance, development status and cost".

 

[ASSAIL]

Oh I suppose the only "French" gear I would suppose we could considered a success currently in the ADF is the KC-30A/A330-MRTT.

Gf, I am not disputing with you, just think that Shortfin Barracuda is not all bad, but given we have something better to work with as a starting point (ie, Soryu), perhaps the obvious choice is to go with that. And btw, I know you're an Aussie, just teasing you about your "anti-French made stuff" sentiment. , but you got to admit the French do make sexy stuff!

Oh, I would love to see the next evolved Soryu replace their props with a pumpjet propulsion system.

I'm sure gf will provide a more comprehensive answer at some stage but a couple of points in response, first, the KC30A was not a trouble free purchase, first ordered in 2005 with an expected first unit in 2 years, this delayed by 2 years and final acceptance of the capability in March 2015.

Second, you think the Shortfin Barracuda is not bad? On what basis, it doesn't exist and the Barracuda currently in production in France is way over time and budget? You have no reason to believe anything about a derivitive, you speculate.

Finally, why would you risk changing a proven performer, the Soryu hull and propulsion method. The risks and costs are enormous, something to be done just because it seems trendy? No way .

 

[gf0012-aust]

I'm sure gf will provide a more comprehensive answer at some stage but a couple of points in response, first, the KC30A was not a trouble free purchase, first ordered in 2005 with an expected first unit in 2 years, this delayed by 2 years and final acceptance of the capability in March 2015.

Second, you think the Shortfin Barracuda is not bad? On what basis, it doesn't exist and the Barracuda currently in production in France is way over time and budget? You have no reason to believe anything about a derivitive, you speculate.

Finally, why would you risk changing a proven performer, the Soryu hull and propulsion method. The risks and costs are enormous, something to be done just because it seems trendy? No way .

and we have another winner

my learned colleague has summed up some of the issues succinctly

the revised barracuda is a paper proposal - can you imagine the engineering grief to bring it to the table.

all this chat re how good the barracuda would be is not based on any empirical data - as there is none.

a new drivetrain means basically a greenfields engineering project.

smoke and mirrors

we have one sub on its second generation, based on what was regarded as the most acoustically perfect hull made and which earned the nickname "nuke killer" in its baseline guise - as against two untested and unbuilt proposals.

we have one sub where we know that we will have less grief and no resistance from our principle partner to assist in integrating the preferred combat system into it and who has no problems with that build partner - as opposed to one country where we know that IP firewalls will have to be constructed and where integration is not as smoothly guaranteed.

this notion that there is a magical viable french solution is an exercise in faith and wishful thinking more than engineering realities and absolutes.