Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[recce.k1]

Really a disappointing comment from ex MOD Phil Goff.

"If the infrastructure of Christchurch needs to be rebuilt, that comes before putting a new missile system on frigates, it comes before a 'holiday highway' north of Auckland."

Mr Goff has a habit of raising the ANZAC self defence upgrade when it suits (and inflating the figure, I wonder if he's managed to top $1Billion by now)

I wouldn't worry though, as once the election is over and the union or rainbow elements (or an awkward union + rainbow alliance) within Labour roll him as leader, you won't be hearing such drivel from him again

As has been pointed out here before, it's our leaders (and opp. leaders) lack of appetite for putting defence in it's rightful place as enabler of trade and enterprise that really has me frustrated. Rant over:el

Otherwise it wouldn't do any harm to remind him the RNZAF used to "sink" the early RNZN (and RAN) ANZAC's during exercises quite regularly. Even when the Skyhawks were 'clapped out'. Oh, but wait Mr Goff supported ditching the cheaper to operate Skyhawks over the ANZAC's ... looks like bad judgement has always been one of his leading attributes :

 

[CJohn]

Otherwise it wouldn't do any harm to remind him the RNZAF used to "sink" the early RNZN (and RAN) ANZAC's during exercises quite regularly. Even when the Skyhawks were 'clapped out'.

I remember those days, It would be nice to compare our present Fast jets to an upgraded ANZAC though ! unfortunately, it will be some time before we can do that.

Wasn't there a plan to arm the P3's with harpoons at some stage ?

 

[recce.k1]

I remember those days, It would be nice to compare our present Fast jets to an upgraded ANZAC though ! unfortunately, it will be some time before we can do that.

Sure, the upgraded ANZAC's would be an entirely different matter.

Especially the RAN's various projects eg Sea 1448 and the growth of network capabilities.

Which is the serious answer to Mr Goff, if the RNZN's ANZAC's could get hammered on occassion (by A-4's in the past), how would they fair with newer generations of a/c, ship and stand off weapons etc? As a former defmin he knows the answer all too well. That's why he would have supported the ANZAC upgrade planning (and reasoning) in his time!

 

[Lucasnz]

I remember those days, It would be nice to compare our present Fast jets to an upgraded ANZAC though ! unfortunately, it will be some time before we can do that.

Wasn't there a plan to arm the P3's with harpoons at some stage ?

Yes in the 1980's upgrade for the Orion's there was a plan to fit Harpoons to the Orion's. I seem to recall (but maybe wrong) that the Orion's were wired for Harpoon. The plan was sort of like the plan at the time to acquire a logistics support ship - it'll happen with time (and a lot of it)

 

[chis73]

Frigate upgrade postponed?

Well, it seems you will all just have to keep wondering what the frigate upgrade will entail.

According to various news sites, the frigate upgrade is postponed, or as Wayne Mapp has said - it's going ahead, I just won't be asking for any money for it this year.

Nice one Wayne.hwell

One wonders what else is now in "el limbo". Pretty much everything I suspect - trainer aircraft, endeavour replacement, probably even the littoral warfare support ship. Defence budgets just prove far too tempting for politicians when the squeeze comes on I guess. As Darth Vader once said "... All too easy!"

Chis73

 

[recce.k1]

According to various news sites, the frigate upgrade is postponed, or as Wayne Mapp has said - it's going ahead, I just won't be asking for any money for it this year.

I haven't seen any news reports on Frigate upgrade postponement - could you give us a source?

Anyway, I thought the ANZAC Frigate upgrade was earmarked for 2013-2017 according to:
http://www.defence.govt.nz/pdfs/def...eview-white-paper-cabinet-combined-papers.pdf
See pages 20 and 40 (or 2012-2016 as per page 73).

So looks like Defmin Mapp is factually correct

(Looks like the media need to lay off the after work drinks and actually do some research when they ask Mapp "hey is the upgrade happening this year?". Mapp: "No". Media: "Newsflash, the ANZAC upgrade has been a victim in this year's round of funding cuts")

 

[chis73]

I haven't seen any news reports on Frigate upgrade postponement - could you give us a source?

Govt cost-cutting reaches into wide range of programmes | The National Business Review

The same story is on the Herald website as well.

You are very probably right - I seem to have jumped the gun a little. Oops! :eek

Chis73

 

[RubiconNZ]

Govt cost-cutting reaches into wide range of programmes | The National Business Review

The same story is on the Herald website as well.

You are very probably right - I seem to have jumped the gun a little. Oops! :eek

Chis73

They really don't have a choice with the upgrade one way or another somethings will need to be worked on, by 2017 Sea Sparrow has to go, the Torpedo's need to be replaced, and it'll will be interesting to see how far along the RAN upgrades will be, Radar Systems and Combat systems would be on the list to, I don't think even the RNZN would operate a ANZAC sized vessel with a 127mm deck gun and the CIWS. It annoys me immensely how the Frigates are used as political football.

 

[MrConservative]

Yes in the 1980's upgrade for the Orion's there was a plan to fit Harpoons to the Orion's. I seem to recall (but maybe wrong) that the Orion's were wired for Harpoon. The plan was sort of like the plan at the time to acquire a logistics support ship - it'll happen with time (and a lot of it)

I think that the Orions need to be wired up with milspec 1776 databus to take the Harps. Maybe a techhead can confirm.

 

[MrConservative]

Govt cost-cutting reaches into wide range of programmes | The National Business Review

The same story is on the Herald website as well.

You are very probably right - I seem to have jumped the gun a little. Oops! :eek

Chis73

I actually think that in the very least Defence is safe from the budget big chop.

Partly because it has proven to deliver in some vital areas of real national interest that money cannot buy and secondly because the pruning that has gone on for 20 years in defence means that after the VfM there is not much more to trim without killing off the tree for good.

What is not safe is the election bribe programmes from the previous administration such as middle class welfare handouts like working for families and the student loan scam that cost us billions a year.

Maybe some delays on project start dates, but there is a realisation that some items that we cannot do without - need replacing before too long.

 

[recce.k1]

Govt cost-cutting reaches into wide range of programmes | The National Business Review

The same story is on the Herald website as well.

You are very probably right - I seem to have jumped the gun a little. Oops! :eek

Chis73

Thanks for the link, and sweet as!

Good to see the ANZAC frigate upgrade in context (I would have thought it would have been an odd thing to report on, but I suppose the reporter was simply following up on Phil Goff's frigate outbursts).

Poor Mr Goff, with his party's political scandal errupting yesterday and calling into question his judgement, I wonder if he'd prefer taking his chances and walk the plank over shark infested waters rather than deal with the impending media storm? Perhaps the Navy could kindly hand him a plank to let him decide (seeing they tend to be on the receiving end of the political football kicking and would will be willing to 'help out')

 

[RegR]

I think they need to send ANZAC to do the anti-piracy patrols to cover alot of bases, show our commitment internationally, prove the MLU is a nessescity not merely a want, make use of our combat force operationally and ward off the dreaded axe man in this time of public sector reveiws as no doubt some genius in government will put forward frigates 'can' be cut to save a buck(ala ACF), also be a good chance to stretch out those new engines and give them a good run.

Surely the crews will be itching to do a stint on guard as you don't go on a frigate for the looks, a bit of realtime action should do wonders for recruitment and retention.

 

[Gibbo]

RNZN to exercise with USN

NZ navy to join US led exercise - National - NZ Herald News

Excellent news on RimPac.:dbanana

 

[RegR]

Well guess that takes care of that, no piracy patrol for at least another year, navy too busy???

uhttp://www.nzherald.co.nz/

 

[RubiconNZ]

NZ navy to join US led exercise - National - NZ Herald News

Excellent news on RimPac.:dbanana

Fantastic news, to bad a Frigate couldn't be there.

 

[Sea Toby]

Well guess that takes care of that, no piracy patrol for at least another year, navy too busy???

uhttp://www.nzherald.co.nz/

Unfortunately, the RNZN doesn't have a third Anzac class frigate to deploy one overseas for a long period of time. With only two the navy deployments are limited to deployments of showing the flag and short exercises. During East Timor New Zealand had three frigates, not the two of today...

The East Timor deployment was in the south Pacific in New Zealand's sphere of influence, a piracy deployment on the other hand is on the other side of the Indian Ocean, not really that close of the south Pacific...

 

[ManilaBoy]

Unfortunately, the RNZN doesn't have a third Anzac class frigate to deploy one overseas for a long period of time. With only two the navy deployments are limited to deployments of showing the flag and short exercises. During East Timor New Zealand had three frigates, not the two of today...

The East Timor deployment was in the south Pacific in New Zealand's sphere of influence, a piracy deployment on the other hand is on the other side of the Indian Ocean, not really that close of the south Pacific...

Are there any plans in the future for RNZN to finally add the 2 more Anzac class vessels that was blocked years ago...The 2 current class ship is inadequate in terms of participating in overseas deployment exercise sinced they are also heavily utilized for domestic maritime and EEZ patrol duties...

 

[StevoJH]

Are there any plans in the future for RNZN to finally add the 2 more Anzac class vessels that was blocked years ago...The 2 current class ship is inadequate in terms of participating in overseas deployment exercise sinced they are also heavily utilized for domestic maritime and EEZ patrol duties...

The ANZAC class has gone out of production.

Australian ANZAC class ships will not be available for transfer until they are replaced, by which time the ships will all probably be ~30 years old.

In addition, due to their current upgrades, they will be considerably different to their New Zealand half-sisters, and considerably more advanced, despite their originally identical fitouts.

 

[Gibbo]

Fantastic news, to bad a Frigate couldn't be there.

Um,read again - Canterbury is off currently on a Pacific Partnership exercise, RimPac is next year & while vessels probably haven't been assigned yet for it, I guarantee an ANZAC will be sent, if not Endeavour as well.

And yes RegR - I wouldn't be surprised to then hear next year that we still can't send a frigate on anti-piracy patrol due to 'a shortage of available vessels'.

 

[recce.k1]

Fantastic news, to bad a Frigate couldn't be there.

Canterbury to join the Pacific Partnership exercise, leaving today.

RNZN to join Rimpac next year. Probably will be a Frigate sent, surely? But whatever does go next year, will be a significant event in terms of NZ-US (and naval) relations.

Also once NZ is invited to a USN exercise, there's no reason why NZ couldn't reciprocate and invite the USN to a NZ exercise (or more likely NZ join an Aust-US exercise down-under) ....

Australian ANZAC class ships will not be available for transfer until they are replaced, by which time the ships will all probably be ~30 years old.

Never under-estimate the power of politicians to "interfere" with Defence and, for example, offer NZ a second-hand ANZAC RAN Frigate (probably not upgraded - and only one has been upgraded anyway, at the moment), if there is some benefit to Australia (or its industry) ....

It was mooted this possibility was offered before circa 3rd NZ ANZAC Frigate decision (over 10 years ago) ...

In addition, due to their current upgrades, they will be considerably different to their New Zealand half-sisters, and considerably more advanced, despite their originally identical fitouts.

http://www.defence.govt.nz/pdfs/def...eview-white-paper-cabinet-combined-papers.pdf

Page 71: "Upgrade frigate self-defence to close the gap with Australia".

Although, I do concede, whether the NZ pollies actually deliver on the rhetoric, is yet to be seen ...

What would help though, will be to see the current RAN ANZAC upgrades (of which there are numerous projects), see through to a successful conclusion etc. Are you able to update status (and projected timeframes etc)?