The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[1805]

It does seem strange that after taking a very luke warm approach to small calibre gun based CIWS, the RN appears to be considering fitting Phalanx on the T26, just as the USN seems to be looking elsewhere (Zumwalt & LCS).

If this is the case what could be the motivation: the modular nature which has got to be attractive or are they planning to cross decking existing kit, but these would surely be over 15 years old?

I would like to see the RN evaluate the Mk 3/110 57mm guns as part of a CIWS approach

I agree if the money can't be found for upgrading to 6" they should look at the 5" Mk 45. Not a serious proposal but I wonder how much and 155mm ACS would cost?

It will be interesting to see if the USN eventually moves away from Mk 45 to the ACS.

 

[StobieWan]

Agreed about the upping of calibre, but CIWS is always a point of arguement.

If they were to fit the MSI - BUSHMASTER 30mm, some would argue that it CAN act as CIWS.The gun & Ammo is good out to about 6 miles / 10Km. Having seen it personally taking out a towed target at 3Km, that was travelling at over 400MPH (yes, I know that's not Mach 3, but it was damn good shootin !), I'd vouch for it.

Again that's all down to the ability to track the target at extended ranges, the accuracy of the alignment of ALL the equipment onboard the ship (i.e. that they are all reading the same level / point in EXACTLY the same direction) & the computing capability of the gun fire predictor, with it being FULLY Interfaced / Integrated with the command system.

Add to that a well trained & competent crew, & you have the makings of a GREAT system. :dance2

...But that's just my tuppence worth....

SA

Two different directions really - the 155mm is a major upgrade for NGFS and also for low level anti-ship (most FAC's will wilt under 155mm splinter damage)

CIWS layering - well, I've seen video of the 57 mm and it's very obviously a mature and flexible system - and the 30mm Bushmaster does all the point/penetration stuff you'd need. I think arguments for either exist, and it's a constantly moving "sweet spot" - you could go down the 30mm route and then replace the Phalanx with SeaRam as the 30mm can then take on surface targets like small boats, instead of relying on a 1b Phalanx, meaning you can up CIWS to SeaRam for extra punch and reach.

I'd argue for 155mm for the NGFS with the intention that the CIWS solution be ported across Phalanx from retired hulls, with the idea we'd migrate those to SeaRam. Layered with FLAADS that should give enough of a coverage vs sea skimmers plus smaller surface contacts.

The US have been demonstrating unmanned boats with various turreted remotely operable cannon and machine gun - launching something like that from a 26 with it's boat deck should be possible - it would hopefully be possible to launch a few of those to widen the area coverage if needed?

Mainly, having at least the *facility* for more guns and cannon seems sensible - mini-typhoon etc - we're living in a world full of itchy trigger fingered chaps with boats we have to close with and inspect...


Type 26 is an ideal opportunity for us to migrate away from the 4.5 incher for sure - it'll end up being the bulk of the surface fleet in the way that no other vessel has done for the UK- we'll end up with perhaps 12-14 26's and 6 45's at some point. Which is terrifying when you think of it...

Ian

 

[Systems Adict]

CIWS layering - well, I've seen video of the 57 mm and it's very obviously a mature and flexible system - and the 30mm Bushmaster does all the point/penetration stuff you'd need. I think arguments for either exist, and it's a constantly moving "sweet spot" - you could go down the 30mm route and then replace the Phalanx with SeaRam as the 30mm can then take on surface targets like small boats, instead of relying on a 1b Phalanx, meaning you can up CIWS to SeaRam for extra punch and reach.

I'd argue for 155mm for the NGFS with the intention that the CIWS solution be ported across Phalanx from retired hulls, with the idea we'd migrate those to SeaRam. Layered with FLAADS that should give enough of a coverage vs sea skimmers plus smaller surface contacts.

The US have been demonstrating unmanned boats with various turreted remotely operable cannon and machine gun - launching something like that from a 26 with it's boat deck should be possible - it would hopefully be possible to launch a few of those to widen the area coverage if needed?

Mainly, having at least the *facility* for more guns and cannon seems sensible - mini-typhoon etc - we're living in a world full of itchy trigger fingered chaps with boats we have to close with and inspect...


Type 26 is an ideal opportunity for us to migrate away from the 4.5 incher for sure - it'll end up being the bulk of the surface fleet in the way that no other vessel has done for the UK- we'll end up with perhaps 12-14 26's and 6 45's at some point. Which is terrifying when you think of it...

I know that following incidents like the USS Cole, that the ideaology behing the smaller, unmanned protection ship has been majorly explored by both the US & Israeli armed forces.

The UK RN has opted for the 'More guns & eyes' route, by using lots of manpower & standard GPMG's. Any ship that heads for the Gulf is now automatically prepaired into that format. While the RN format looks cheap & cheerful in comparisson, it works.

Lots of individuals looking out meancingly, pointing a 7.62 GPMG at you, will put fear into even the innocent yachty! Add in a couple of Mini-mi Gatling guns & anything that decides it wants to get close will soon be splinters !

I think you'd also be correct about the 1B Phalanx, with the probability being that T45 will be retrofitted ASAP, once equipment becomes available, as the various units that are being 'withdrawn from service' due to the SDSR start being stripped.

Anyways, one can only dream at the moment, reality will soon either put a smile on our faces with contentment, or we'll be aghast at the horror & reality of the whole situation....

SA

 

[riksavage]

Quote :Flight International

"US military unveils possible F-35B redesign in sweeping budget reforms
Lockheed Martin may need to redesign the airframe structure and propulsion system of the F-35B short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL), says US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. The changes would raise the weight and cost of the variant ordered by the US Marine Corps, Gates says. As a result, the F-35B will be placed on the equivalent of a two-year probation, with termination possible if the programme fails to recover, he says."

The UK Gov must have been privy to such information and it no doubt contributed to the decision to move to the C model. The F35B being placed in two-year probation does not bode well. Weight has always been a critical factor, if it keeps increasing the weapons load will end up being negligible. I can't see the programme surviving too many more set-backs.

In a worst case scenario what's the alternative for STOVL carriers? Is there a potential STOVL UCAV out there capable of providing limited CAS (not including manned attack helo)?

 

[rip]

Quote :Flight International

"US military unveils possible F-35B redesign in sweeping budget reforms
Lockheed Martin may need to redesign the airframe structure and propulsion system of the F-35B short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL), says US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. The changes would raise the weight and cost of the variant ordered by the US Marine Corps, Gates says. As a result, the F-35B will be placed on the equivalent of a two-year probation, with termination possible if the programme fails to recover, he says."

The UK Gov must have been privy to such information and it no doubt contributed to the decision to move to the C model. The F35B being placed in two-year probation does not bode well. Weight has always been a critical factor, if it keeps increasing the weapons load will end up being negligible. I can't see the programme surviving too many more set-backs.

In a worst case scenario what's the alternative for STOVL carriers? Is there a potential STOVL UCAV out there capable of providing limited CAS (not including manned attack helo)?

The public story has been that testing was being delayed because of quality control issues for the parts specific to the “B” variant and not due to design problems. Were we given a false story? Or has something else changed likethe mission?

 

[1805]

Quote :Flight International

"US military unveils possible F-35B redesign in sweeping budget reforms
Lockheed Martin may need to redesign the airframe structure and propulsion system of the F-35B short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL), says US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. The changes would raise the weight and cost of the variant ordered by the US Marine Corps, Gates says. As a result, the F-35B will be placed on the equivalent of a two-year probation, with termination possible if the programme fails to recover, he says."

The UK Gov must have been privy to such information and it no doubt contributed to the decision to move to the C model. The F35B being placed in two-year probation does not bode well. Weight has always been a critical factor, if it keeps increasing the weapons load will end up being negligible. I can't see the programme surviving too many more set-backs.

In a worst case scenario what's the alternative for STOVL carriers? Is there a potential STOVL UCAV out there capable of providing limited CAS (not including manned attack helo)?

That is interesting, I was reading somewhere that the USMC was mad about the UK decision to move from B to C, as this also damaged the case for the B further. It also mentioned how hostile they were to any threat to the B. Apparantly some USMC pilots said something nice about the SH after flying it and all pilots were banned from flying it (not sure if thats true). Either way I think they will fight very hard to keep the B. The whole rational for ships like the LHA-6 is based on a STOL aircraft. If it goes you do have to wonder what options there are. I think a lot of the other navies would consider an upgraded Harrier, not sure they would? That would be an amazing turn around for one of aviations great survivors!

 

[StobieWan]

The public story has been that testing was being delayed because of quality control issues for the parts specific to the “B” variant and not due to design problems. Were we given a false story? Or has something else changed likethe mission?

From the way that's been reported it sounds like deeper concerns than the earlier suggestions of a bit of optimisation and some changes to the odd part. What's interesting is the continuation orders for the SuperHornet which surprised me as that's displacing orders for the F35C surely?

Ian

 

[Systems Adict]

From the way that's been reported it sounds like deeper concerns than the earlier suggestions of a bit of optimisation and some changes to the odd part. What's interesting is the continuation orders for the SuperHornet which surprised me as that's displacing orders for the F35C surely?

fftopic

I know that this story is sorta related to the UK RN, due to the JSF 'B' variant, but here's a link to a better perspective of 'the whole kit n caboodle', detailing how the US Navy are taking a leaf outta our book & discussing defence cuts on a massive scale.

CDR Salamander

...& just in case it doesn't work, here's a link to the actual speech made by the Secretary of Defence for the US...

Defense.gov Speech:

Proactive & thoughtfull times ahead for the US Armed forces (all 4 branches), methinks....

SA

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

There isn't a real alternative for the USMC. They can't fly the F-35Cs off their 'phibs. If they were to fly F-35Cs off the CVs, then it makes sense to just consol everything under the USN rather than 2 forces operating a single a/c.

USMC can't justify operating F-35As off their existing land based airfields eg Okinawa so that either gets transferred to USAF or USN

In other words, if the F-35Bs gets canned, USMC might have the illusion of an airforce for a while but eventually, it will be just USN & USAF operating fixed wing fighters cos that's the only logical move. Also, if that's the case, US will actually get more super carrier centric since that will be the sole means of delivering fixed wing naval fighter power.

Faced with the above, you'd bet the USMC will fight tooth & nail to retain its F-35Bs.

 

[StobieWan]

Haven't got a link to the article but apparently Warship world are reporting that Otomelara have signed a deal to offer one of their five inch mounts with the Type-26 - presumably for export.

Looks like a pretty groovy bit of hardware and can handle the Vulcano ammunition,

Ian

 

[kev 99]

Might be for more than export, if the reports last year of funding drying up for trials of the BAE 155mm mount are true then the RN could be interested in this as it's new main calibre gun.

In other news it looks like HMS Endurance's successor will be HMS Protector.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/HMS-Protector-will-be-Endurance.6685123.jp

 

[Systems Adict]

Haven't got a link to the article but apparently Warship world are reporting that Otomelara have signed a deal to offer one of their five inch mounts with the Type-26 - presumably for export.

I DON'T believe that for a second !
An announcement like that would be all over the wires / net.

Other than in discussions like this, I've not seen anything, even asking people, 'in-the-know' , within the Industry isn't turning anything up ! When I made this statement to 'a trusted source' over the phone, he burst out laughing.

Like we've discussed on here, the Oto gun could well be on a short list of about only 3 or 4 (that appear to fit the bill of what 'we think we know'), but I would say that it's TOO EARLY to comment.

Until the parties involved 'put text to web-page', I think we can only continue to guess & speculate...

Talking of speculation, here's a link to an article that discusses the finer points of the issue (bearing in mind that it's over 2 years since the article was written).

Untitled Document

SA

 

[StobieWan]

I DON'T believe that for a second !
An announcement like that would be all over the wires / net.

Other than in discussions like this, I've not seen anything, even asking people, 'in-the-know' , within the Industry isn't turning anything up ! When I made this statement to 'a trusted source' over the phone, he burst out laughing.

Like we've discussed on here, the Oto gun could well be on a short list of about only 3 or 4 (that appear to fit the bill of what 'we think we know'), but I would say that it's TOO EARLY to comment.

Until the parties involved 'put text to web-page', I think we can only continue to guess & speculate...

Talking of speculation, here's a link to an article that discusses the finer points of the issue (bearing in mind that it's over 2 years since the article was written).

Untitled Document

SA

It's certainly not a done deal but Oto Melara are reporting this on their news page:

OtoMelara - News details

Ian

 

[StobieWan]

In French, but google translate gives a reasonable overview - looks like Babcock and Oto have tied up a deal to offer it to the MOD - so, not a sale as such but certainly more than internet chatter I guess?

http://www.dsi-presse.com/?p=2446

Ian

 

[citizen578]

In French, but google translate gives a reasonable overview - looks like Babcock and Oto have tied up a deal to offer it to the MOD - so, not a sale as such but certainly more than internet chatter I guess?

Babcock and Oto Melara are working on Royal Navy’s future Type 26 frigate

Ian

It's certainly not a done deal but Oto Melara are reporting this on their news page:

OtoMelara - News details

Ian

it amuses me... if we spent less time pissing about, indulging the fantasies of 1805, Palnatoke and the like, we'd have posted that news when it was actually 'news'... back in mid October!

 

[Systems Adict]

In French, but google translate gives a reasonable overview - looks like Babcock and Oto have tied up a deal to offer it to the MOD - so, not a sale as such but certainly more than internet chatter I guess?

Babcock and Oto Melara are working on Royal Navy’s future Type 26 frigate

Ok, Ok...

I CANNOT doubt that both companies have signed a MoU, but that's just a piece of paper.

It's logical that Babcock have done this as they're hedging their bets, as they are the 'incumbent' sub-contractor for all maintenance, repairs & overhauls on the 4.5" & MOD 1 Guns within the UK RN Fleet.

HOWEVER.....

NO DECISION has been made on which gun will be fitted to either the UK or Export variant of the Type 26.


THAT, I am CERTAIN of...


SA

 

[StobieWan]

it amuses me... if we spent less time pissing about, indulging the fantasies of 1805, Palnatoke and the like, we'd have posted that news when it was actually 'news'... back in mid October!

You've had every opportunity to post said article at any point in the time since - to me, it was news, I heard it three days ago, I brought it to the forum to discuss it. Since the reaction to just doing that has been so incredibly negative, I won't bother again,

Ian

 

[StobieWan]

Ok, Ok...


NO DECISION has been made on which gun will be fitted to either the UK or Export variant of the Type 26.

I know...can't see any point where I've definitively claimed it has been.

How about we actually *talk* about it? Say, have a chat in terms of "would this be a good choice or a bad choice?

I dunno, or maybe we can go back to arguing with 1805?


Ian

 

[kev 99]

I'd rather BAE went with the AS90 155mm hybrid upgrade but if funding has dried up as has been reported then it's a useful second option. The RN has been interested off and on in a new medium calibre gun for years and it's probably about time they got one.

 

[1805]

Actually guys can we all stop being personally abusive it doesn't really support anyones argument.