Depends on whether they were T-72 or T-55. It's still somewhere around 40-50% attrition. 5 of how many... 46 OSAs delivered from Ukraine? Around 15% for the BMP-2 (if they were all BMP-2).
Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
- Status
Well, i try to leave the politic out, but if someone put political questions and answers in the thread - then i feel right to intervene. Personally, i would prefer limiting this thread to news and military discussions, and geopolitic moved to separate thread.
DID RUSSIA PLAN ITS WAR IN GEORGIA?
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/pp081608.shtml
IMO, they may have planned it, but it came rather earlier than expected. And the fact that the Navy was ready at a moments notice also speaks for itself! Speaking of which, if they really planned for early August their ships would have been at sea or in Novorossiisk ahead of time, not in Sevastopol. OTH, it takes less than 18 hours to transit from Crimea to Abkhasia. Perhaps they didn't want to reveal their intentions.
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/pp081608.shtml
IMO, they may have planned it, but it came rather earlier than expected. And the fact that the Navy was ready at a moments notice also speaks for itself! Speaking of which, if they really planned for early August their ships would have been at sea or in Novorossiisk ahead of time, not in Sevastopol. OTH, it takes less than 18 hours to transit from Crimea to Abkhasia. Perhaps they didn't want to reveal their intentions.
Navy wasnt fully ready, they get off port after about 24 hours. Rather normal for high-ready unit.
An important note: for outside observer it looks like whole 58 army started to move the moment Georgians attacked S. Ossetia. This is far from truth. Only very small part of 58 army was ready and close to S. Ossetia - about 2 full battalions. Other units slowly moved from they bases around Caucasus, and after about 2 days russian troops reached enough strength to launch an offensive on Georgian troops around T'hinvalli.
Also, the airforce element was absolutely not ready. Hasty relocation from other airfield continued all 5 days, in first most important 2 days only 58 army organic aviation (NOT VVS!) was used. This explains rather anemic russian airforce results.
source?
If only I could remember the name of the Russian general who I heard on the BBC news, I could tell you.
Unless you believe the BBC would deliberately mistranslate statements made by Russian officers & officials (obviously it wouldn't - such fakery would instantly be exposed), the sources for claims of Russian troops seizing Georgian army stockpiles are official statements of the Russian army & government, & have been reported by all the news media here. The Russian army talks of Georgian army stocks as if they were caches of terrorist arms, & says it is removing or destroying them.
It is official russian MOD statement, so it is confirmed information. At least i dont see slightest reason why they would lie in that matter.
Now another note: How would you think, if russians planned that attack long ago - why 58 army was equipped with all that antiquate stuff good only against rebels in Chechnya? Russians could equip 58 army with they best stuff having perfect reason for that - after all this is the only russian unit which actually engaged in some kind of real military operation in current Russia.
It would make a lot of sense to equip 58 army with best equipment and aviation - yet absolutely nothing was done... Think about that.
Actually it really doesnt matter what Russia does, the western media is always on the side of the US. The fact that the US invasion and subsequent overthrow of the Iraqi Gov is looked at as liberators against the tyrant says it all. The original pretext of that invasion was that Saddam was having WMD, which was found to be untrue.
American Girl on Fox News: "I was running from Georgian troops, I want to thank the Russian troops"
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/08...-georgian-troops-thank-you-to-russian-troops/
When they invaded Checnya they didn't have the latest arms either. What would happen if Western and georgian intel found that the Russian Army units in NCMD opposing them suddenly issued new equipment, and the AF bombers deploy to new local bases? Also, maybe the new hardware isn't in sufficient quantiities. "You go to war with the army you have"! In any case, they may have decided that Georgia can't even use Western supplied systems efficiently anyway- given that most of it is now either destoyed or captured.
Russia ‘seizes US weapons’
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\08\16\story_16-8-2008_pg4_3
War is absurd, says Russian pilot shot down over Georgia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...sian-pilot-shot-down-over-georgia-898991.html
Ukrainians wonder what Georgia crisis means for them
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/48484.html
Russian forces still entrenched in Georgia
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080816/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2008/08...-georgian-troops-thank-you-to-russian-troops/
When they invaded Checnya they didn't have the latest arms either. What would happen if Western and georgian intel found that the Russian Army units in NCMD opposing them suddenly issued new equipment, and the AF bombers deploy to new local bases? Also, maybe the new hardware isn't in sufficient quantiities. "You go to war with the army you have"! In any case, they may have decided that Georgia can't even use Western supplied systems efficiently anyway- given that most of it is now either destoyed or captured.
Russia ‘seizes US weapons’
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\08\16\story_16-8-2008_pg4_3
War is absurd, says Russian pilot shot down over Georgia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...sian-pilot-shot-down-over-georgia-898991.html
Ukrainians wonder what Georgia crisis means for them
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/48484.html
Russian forces still entrenched in Georgia
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080816/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia
Last edited:
Btw looking at Bush's recent press statements made a mockery of international law. Statements of the 2 regions belonging to Georgia, respecting thier territorial integrity, protected by UN law, made me laugh. How can he say all those after doing the same thing to Kosovo? LOL! What kind of a message is he giving to the young children of US? When you have a leader of a country that is double tongued. lol.
Btw US is now pushing for the winter Olympics to be moved from Sochi.
Also I have 1 conspiracy theory I wanna state. Just as a thought. I hope no 1 gets hurt,angry,annoyed with this
Its a known fact that Obama is leading the opinion polls, as he looks the right man to fix the problems close to Home in US. However McCain who doesnt look fit the bill to address the economic problems seems to be the 1 in advantage regarding this conflict and Russia. In a perfect world, had this conflict not happen, it would seem like Obama will win the elections.
But being a military man, and fearing a drastic change in US international policies by Obama, the Pentagon might have preferred McCain, and this attack by Georgia may have been instigated by Pentagon, in order to give McCain the push that he needs to win the elections and continue US international policies.
Its abit far fetched. But just a thought. hehe.
Btw US is now pushing for the winter Olympics to be moved from Sochi.
Also I have 1 conspiracy theory I wanna state. Just as a thought. I hope no 1 gets hurt,angry,annoyed with this
Its a known fact that Obama is leading the opinion polls, as he looks the right man to fix the problems close to Home in US. However McCain who doesnt look fit the bill to address the economic problems seems to be the 1 in advantage regarding this conflict and Russia. In a perfect world, had this conflict not happen, it would seem like Obama will win the elections.
But being a military man, and fearing a drastic change in US international policies by Obama, the Pentagon might have preferred McCain, and this attack by Georgia may have been instigated by Pentagon, in order to give McCain the push that he needs to win the elections and continue US international policies.
Its abit far fetched. But just a thought. hehe.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #152
Reports of an Abkhazian offensive in western Georgia are coming in. A Hydro-electric powerplant on the Inguri river and 13 surrounding villages have been captured. The reports are Georgian, which makes me wonder if it's another PR stunt or if Abkhazia has actually made a move.
Million dollar question. What is the armored vehicle on the photo? T-55?
Million dollar question. What is the armored vehicle on the photo? T-55?
Yes - a T-55Reports of an Abkhazian offensive in western Georgia are coming in. A Hydro-electric powerplant on the Inguri river and 13 surrounding villages have been captured. The reports are Georgian, which makes me wonder if it's another PR stunt or if Abkhazia has actually made a move.
Million dollar question. What is the armored vehicle on the photo? T-55?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #154
A quick news update. Some Russian troops have begun pulling out of the conflict zone. However the withdrawal seems to be a very limited one. The Russian ministry of defense did overturn the news, but a column of Russian troops was moving from Ts'hinvali towards the Russian border.
FluffyThoughts
Member
Some people may have misread my geo-political point that Russia may have lost the war. Here is a comment from this week's The Economist:
The change of scene should not, in retrospect, be surprising. Unlike Abkhazia, which is separated from the rest of Georgia by a buffer zone, South Ossetia is a tiny patchwork of villages—Georgian and South Ossetian—which was much easier to drag into a war. It is headed by a thuggish former Soviet official, Eduard Kokoity, and run by the Russian security services. It lives off smuggling and Russian money. As Yulia Latynina, a Russian journalist, puts it, “South Ossetia is a joint venture between KGB generals and an Ossetian gangster, who jointly utilise the money disbursed by Moscow for fighting with Georgia.”
Source: http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11920992
Please read the full document. The diversity of sources used - many quoted - could be one of the more intriguing analysis [sp?] of the current conflict. This paper also predicted the collapse of the Warsaw Pact many years before anyone else...!
The change of scene should not, in retrospect, be surprising. Unlike Abkhazia, which is separated from the rest of Georgia by a buffer zone, South Ossetia is a tiny patchwork of villages—Georgian and South Ossetian—which was much easier to drag into a war. It is headed by a thuggish former Soviet official, Eduard Kokoity, and run by the Russian security services. It lives off smuggling and Russian money. As Yulia Latynina, a Russian journalist, puts it, “South Ossetia is a joint venture between KGB generals and an Ossetian gangster, who jointly utilise the money disbursed by Moscow for fighting with Georgia.”
Source: http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11920992
Please read the full document. The diversity of sources used - many quoted - could be one of the more intriguing analysis [sp?] of the current conflict. This paper also predicted the collapse of the Warsaw Pact many years before anyone else...!
The did not have approval which = disobeyed
Where the heck are they, could be squatting down with their fingers interlocked behind there heads with a NKVD guard holding an AK-47 on them? What about the Isreali advisers I would assume the same, if any civilian adviser form any country took up arms they have already been shot.
Something we agree onBtw, i also think US seriously underestimated the rage and cruelty of Georgian nationalists and consequence of them entering S. Ossetia. Or may be not ... but i try to think good about americans
This energy angle is not the primary issue for Russia, this is a security issue pushing NATO down their throats is what just caused Russia to act, we would have done the same thing. If a hostile alliance is taking up residence on your freaking boarder what would any sane leader do? Stop looking at this from the prism of western volnerabilities and look at it from the Russian point of view. This is the point when a proud country has had it's national nose rubbed in crap for over a decade with insults after insult now they are back on their feet. Also I think their action was ligit, their citizens were under military attack and they responded with military might we would have done the same thing, Georgia was check-mated when Russia gave pass-ports to South Osettias citizens at that point the game was over for Georgia they just did not realize it. I think they realize it now.
Last edited:
This is here more of historical incapabilities than justified national integrity
questions. Right, hard for justifying events of georgian.
As a side note from news:
Could though think many of us would as a certainty, re-write a whole
20th century war-book again. Not only no-one else than european civilization, also with russian. Much more easy to talk from 19th century straight to 21th century.
Where you could note the difference of the russia today and monarchy of
russian before; there a vast popular movement to join together natural,
native geographical areas, where as defending.
Not unbelievable to think under war-zone news, that many comments of
internationally recognized defence are here today to support us all,
the 21th century leaving painful crisis behind.
questions. Right, hard for justifying events of georgian.
As a side note from news:
Could though think many of us would as a certainty, re-write a whole
20th century war-book again. Not only no-one else than european civilization, also with russian. Much more easy to talk from 19th century straight to 21th century.
Where you could note the difference of the russia today and monarchy of
russian before; there a vast popular movement to join together natural,
native geographical areas, where as defending.
Not unbelievable to think under war-zone news, that many comments of
internationally recognized defence are here today to support us all,
the 21th century leaving painful crisis behind.
Btw I was watching the news, and I saw a few T62's? What the heck are those outdated tanks doing in georgia?
Is Russia planning to see the effectiveness of those stored weapons or are they just hoping to use n lose them in combat so that they replenish their inventory and backup with newer stuff's?
Also Saakashvilli claimed Russia used WMD on Georgia on CNN. I am still wondering what type of WMD Russia used.Is it Bio, chem, or nuke? Any ideas?
Is Russia planning to see the effectiveness of those stored weapons or are they just hoping to use n lose them in combat so that they replenish their inventory and backup with newer stuff's?
Also Saakashvilli claimed Russia used WMD on Georgia on CNN. I am still wondering what type of WMD Russia used.Is it Bio, chem, or nuke? Any ideas?
They are part of 42rd MRD. 58 Army (and 42 MRD in it) is highly inclined to counter-insurgency warfare, less as real front-line army. 42rd MRD is equipped with T-62M and T-72B tanks. It is professional, well-trained unit (considerable better than most others) - just with old equipment good enough against rebels.
Russia just didnt had anything else in the theater, which was viewed as secondary and not very dangerous before. You dont need T-90 and Su-34 against Chechen insurgents. That said, russians had perfect excuse to reequip 58 army with best stuff if they wanted - and they didnt done that...
May be he in his creative way translated rumors about Russians used missiles like "Tochka-U" (SS-21)? It can be equipped with nuclear warhead, but mostly used with conventional warhead. But to tell the truth, i dont think we will get that far discussing every Saakashvilli fantasy.
What a mess.
Merkel said today that Georgia is able to join NATO if it wants...
I got a headache only by watching her press conference in Tiblisi. What a nice 180° rotation out of the blue and against what I would call public opinion.
And to add some fun stuff she also said that she supports a German part in a possible peacekeeping mission.
The last thing I want to see is some German soldiers in the middle of this mess between Russia and Georgia.
What do we want to send to help keeping the peace? An armoured division and two air wings...?
Merkel said today that Georgia is able to join NATO if it wants...
I got a headache only by watching her press conference in Tiblisi. What a nice 180° rotation out of the blue and against what I would call public opinion.
And to add some fun stuff she also said that she supports a German part in a possible peacekeeping mission.
The last thing I want to see is some German soldiers in the middle of this mess between Russia and Georgia.
What do we want to send to help keeping the peace? An armoured division and two air wings...?
- Status