Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

[Chrom]

I will find it interesting to see if and how Russia managed to jam them.

Words russians didnt used much jamming, instead they intercepted comms to they advantage. Many witnessed told what even mobile phones were working without much problem. Some Georgian soldiers told what they units were ordered to surrender through they battle comms by russians (when defeat was already clear).

 

[eaf-f16]

Captured weapons and booty is a by product of the conflict. Russia has been stripping bases, this serves in preventing future attacks. It would be stupid to destroy everything. Georgian troops have rapidly retreated or deserted, most likely lot of equipment has not been destroyed. Also they will analyse captured equipment to see if they have been modified by western technology. As like you said to want to test them out to see the advantages these systems have. My speculation would be more valid, if I knew exactly what technology was provided by the west. Russia says Israel sold 200 million dollars worth of military goods including drones. For example, if Russia can get hold of some intact drones they will have access to advanced optics, at moment I know they have shot down many.

I already saw a pretty intact Georgian Elbit drone that was shot down over one of the rebels regions laying around in some garage somewhere. The rebels showed it on Al-Jazeera English after the Russians allegedly shot down a Georgian UAV to show that they had shot down some before. If the Israeli drone tech was truly of sensitive nature then it must have been compromised along time ago.

 

[ASFC]

The reason why I speculated they would destroy most of the weapons they have looted is because of the logistical nightmare of moving them back to Russia-you forget that they entered Georgia post ceasefire to remove Georgias immediate ability to shell S.Ossetia and Abkhazia. They have limited time to do this and will only take equipment back to Russia worth taking back, like comms and drones etc, because the military objective is to remove the threat, and the quickest way would be to just destroy the weapons they don't want.

This isn't a normal conflict where the victors have time to go around collecting war prizes. Russia has barely days in Georgia to remove equipment from Georgian control before the US turns up in country to provide Humanitarian stuff. Notice they could have let the Abkhazians have those missile boats in Poti, but it would have taken too long to transfer them so they just blew them up.

 

[Chrom]

The reason why I speculated they would destroy most of the weapons they have looted is because of the logistical nightmare of moving them back to Russia-you forget that they entered Georgia post ceasefire to remove Georgias immediate ability to shell S.Ossetia and Abkhazia. They have limited time to do this and will only take equipment back to Russia worth taking back, like comms and drones etc, because the military objective is to remove the threat, and the quickest way would be to just destroy the weapons they don't want.

This isn't a normal conflict where the victors have time to go around collecting war prizes. Russia has barely days in Georgia to remove equipment from Georgian control before the US turns up in country to provide Humanitarian stuff. Notice they could have let the Abkhazians have those missile boats in Poti, but it would have taken too long to transfer them so they just blew them up.

Tanks and other heavy technic still could be evacuated without much problems. In fact, everything worth could be evacuated without THAT much problem. Most trucks should drive back to N.Osetia empty anyway ;O

But partially i agree here - most relative useless stuff will be blown on place. Regarding Georgian "Navy" - russians have 10x as much stuff rusting in ports for give-away than these sunken useless old boats.

 

[Galrahn]

I don't think those guns could cause significant damage to the Moskva. It makes sense for it to turn away if it caught fire, the fire is more trouble than the coastals.

Russia's Navy may not be sexy, but they are built to fight. A little gun damage is not going to return the BSF flagship back to port, it would have had to take a missile hit or other serious damage to withdraw. I don't think that is what happened here, it sounds like a one sided affair where Georgia got a few shots off, then got outclassed.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted

 

[Feanor]

So it seems that things have finally quieted down. 50 alleged Russian tanks in Gori turned out to be 3 BTR's. Georgian police has returned to Gori and has contorl of the city. Abkhazia took control of the Kodori Gorge, and stopped at that. Russia has denied it's troop presence in Poti (which from what I've heard here seems to be a lie).

From the looks of it the war is over and has confirmed what up to now was only up for discussion, Russia is back. The problem of course is that while the bipolar and even monopolar world of the recent past is coming to an end. While Russia is opposing the existing super power, the USA, many other are rising fast. The issue of US aid to Georgia is an interesting one, but even more interesting is the NATO paradox. After this war (which clearly demonstrated that Georgia has unresolved and very dangerours territorial issues) NATO membership may turn out to be more likely then before. NATO Secretary said publicly that Georgia will be accepted into NATO.

 

[roberto]

Peace plan is exactly what i wrote in previous thread. It is called enforced peace. Russia can strike at will from advantegous position. this situation will discredit the governmnet enough to collapse in long term by itself and Russia will not have burden of full occupation. Just watching from the top.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14document.html?hp
Peace Plan Offers Russia a Rationale to Advance

TBILISI, Georgia — It was nearly 2 a.m. on Wednesday when President Nicolas Sarkozy of France announced he had accomplished what seemed virtually impossible: Persuading the leaders of Georgia and Russia to agree to a set of principles that would stop the war.


Handshakes and congratulations were offered all around. But by the time the sun was up, Russian tanks were advancing again, this time taking positions around the strategically important city of Gori, in central Georgia.

It soon became clear that the six-point deal not only failed to slow the Russian advance, but it also allowed Russia to claim that it could push deeper into Georgia as part of so-called additional security measures it was granted in the agreement. Mr. Sarkozy, according to a senior Georgian official who witnessed the negotiations, also failed to persuade the Russians to agree to any time limit on their military action.

By mid-morning, European officials were warning of the risks of appeasing Russian aggression, while Georgian officials lamented the West’s weak leverage.

“I’m talking about the impotence and inability of both Europe and the United States to be unified and to exert leverage, and to comprehend the level of the threat,” said the senior Georgian official, who had sat in on the talks between Mr. Sarkozy and Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili.

The senior Georgian official later made a copy of the deal available to The New York Times with what he said were notes marking changes the Georgians had asked for but failed to attain.

Of gripping importance to the Georgian government now, Western diplomats and Georgian officials said, is whether the agreement gave the Russians room to interpret the occupation of Gori and a zone around the city as agreed upon in the cease-fire, thus allowing them to control the main east-west road through the country, isolating the capital, Tbilisi, from the Black Sea coast and cutting off important supply routes.

In response, the United States began sending troops to Georgia to oversee aid to the capital on Wednesday.

France brokered the deal as the country holding the rotating presidency of the European Union. Bernard Kouchner, the foreign minister of France, visited Tbilisi and left with a four-point cease-fire plan.

The conditions were: no use of force; cease hostilities; open humanitarian corridors in the conflict areas; and Georgian and Russian troops withdraw to their pre-war positions.

In meetings in Moscow, the Russians insisted on two additional points, the Georgian official said, and Mr. Sarkozy carried these demands to Georgia, landing shortly after 10 p.m. Wednesday and driving straight to the Parliament building to meet Mr. Saakashvili.

Negotiating from a position of strength, the Russians demanded the fifth point, allowing their troops to act in what was termed a peacekeeping role, even outside the boundaries of the separatist enclaves where the war began, with an understanding that later an international agreement might obviate this need.

The vague language of the fifth point allows Russian peacekeepers to “implement additional security measures” while awaiting an international monitoring mechanism.

The Georgians asked that a timeline be included in the language for these loosely defined Russian peacekeeping operations, but the Georgian official said Mr. Sarkozy’s response was that without an agreement, a Russian tank assault on the capital could ensue: “He was saying it’s a difficult situation. He said, ‘Their tanks are 40 kilometers from Tbilisi. This is where we are.’ ”

Mr. Sarkozy then tried to call Dmitri A. Medvedev, the Russian president, to amend the point with a timeline. The adviser, who was present, said the Russians did not take the call for two hours. When the French president got through, the proposal was rejected.

In the sixth point, both sides agreed that the status of the contested separatist regions would be pursued the future.

A senior American official familiar with the talks also said that the Russians insisted on the fifth point about the so-called additional security measures. “I think it was presented as, ‘You need to sign on to this,’ ” the official said of Mr. Sarkozy’s appeal to the Georgians. “My guess is it was presented as, ‘This is the best I can get.’ ”

French and Russian officials were unavailable to comment on the Georgian official’s account of how the negotiations unfolded.

Mr. Sarkozy and Mr. Saakashvili announced the agreement around 2 a.m., and Russian tanks and troops moved toward Gori soon afterward. The Russians cited the fifth provision, saying they had identified a threat to the local population that justified their troops assuming a peacekeeping role in the city.

A spokesman for President Medvedev said they took up positions around the town to protect locals from South Ossetians bent on revenge against ethnic Georgians for what Russia says was Georgia’s wholesale destruction of Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, and its inflicting of civilian casualties. It said it was also there to dispose of weapons left unattended by Georgian troops.

And, in an apparent swipe at the retreat of the Georgian army, which received supplies from the United States, the Russian general commanding the town, Vyachislav N. Borisov, noted in particular the risk if looters seized what he said were thousands of abandoned, American-made assault rifles at a military base. General Borisov spoke at an impromptu news conference on a road congested with Russian military trucks and armored vehicles outside Gori on Wednesday evening.

Russian troops have the right to take any actions necessary to prevent hostilities, said a Kremlin spokesman, Alexei Pavlov, including inside Georgia.

He said the fifth point of the agreement included this right but added that Russia would consider such actions justified “without any agreement at all.”

One senior American official said the fifth point in the cease-fire agreement could lead to further Russian advances, including feints on Tbilisi, to create panic and undermine support for Mr. Saakashvili. This official said international acceptance of Russians as peacekeepers in Georgia “is absurd at this point.”

 

[JohanGrön]

Most trucks should drive back to N.Osetia empty anyway ;O

Not so sure about that, there seems to be a lot of looting going on by russian and ossetian troops in Georgia. Most trucks will be filled with whatever stuff from civilian residences on their way back.

 

[Feanor]

I have not heard any reports of looting. Anyways the rumor of Russian forces taking Gori was overturned by both sides. Here's an interesting collection of wartime photos. A couple of the shots show some gruesome injuries, view at your own discretion.

http://lsd-25.ru/2008/08/14/voyna-v-yuzhnoy-osetii-89-fotografiy-arkadiya-babchenko/

EDIT: Rapid update. Russian troops have indeed taken over the large Georgian Army storage in Senaki where the Georgians abandoned a supply of battle ready weapons. The weapons are being "evacuated" from the conflict zone. Well Chrom looks like we know what the trucks heading back north are full of.

 

[mickk]

A particularly disgusting dirty war.

I Witnessed several Civilians being killed by either Russian or Osettian? sniper forces on the Greek news Channel yesterday. Was the full unedited version of an earlier report.

Murdering old women in cars attempting to flee to safety wont be forgotten in a hurry. Pick on someone your own size you bastards.

Now I understand why the Afghanistanis slit so many Russian throats.

 

[mickk]

Putting aside emotions, this is a great shot.

http://lsd-25.ru/img/navoine-ru_IMG_9659.jpg

(not graphic)

 

[Chrom]

Just reviewing some of the potential implications of US supplying aid to Georgia.

(i) Could it push Russia to occupy Georgia and install a puppet regime?

No. Really occupying Georgia - last thing Russia want. Right now there is no pro-russian opposition in Georgia (and there was no for a long time), and "puppet" regime will require much too much efforts to maintain.

(ii) Could it push Russia to supply aid via Iran to Iraqi insurgents?

No. If you havent noticed, US involvement in Georgian affairs before these events were comparable to US involvement in Afganistan in 80x. US supply, arm, train, pay Georgian army & government for a long time already. Doing more is possible, but will require direct official US vs Russian soldier stand-off. Not very likely...
Remember, just placing military base in Georgia couldnt be US aim. It could be much easer done before these events - now it is substantially harder.

(iii) Could it push Russia to supply aid to Taliban? <-- unlikely though...

Nah. Of course no. If russian want to do something like that - they have Iran and Syria. There are also a lot of other places where russians can return a favor.

(iv) Will this have an implication on Russo-Sino ties...

Not in the grand scale. Russia-China geopolitically already friendly as is.

The next US president will inherit strained relations with Russia and have an interesting situation to deal with.

Yup. He will have both roads open - admitting Georgian crimes while blaming previous administration, or conflicting with Russia, "old" part of EU, China. But i think in any case speeches will considerable calm down. Not what they are too hot as is - during Chechnya times there were far worse examples.

Interesting to review what kind of military aid the US is/will be supplying. Stingers will be a major boost (reminiscent of what it did in Afghanistan).
Avengers are another item that could play a significant role with its added mobility.

Georgians generally didnt experienced lack of advanced MANPADS. So dont expect Stingers change anything.

Javelins/AT4s may have a significant impact too on Russian tank movements. Sending Abrams could be a major surprise.

Same here. Georgians had quite adequate ATGM's, Javelings woulnt change much. Abrams wouldnt change outcome even slightly - by all accounts most tanks were destroyed with RPG/ATGM fire, some with artillery and aviation.


I will stress it - Georgian army was very good equipped.

 

[Chrom]

Not so sure about that, there seems to be a lot of looting going on by russian and ossetian troops in Georgia. Most trucks will be filled with whatever stuff from civilian residences on their way back.

Regular troops will definitely not engage in that. Even non-regular is very unlikely. Russians now try to win propaganda war, they will do all they could to prevent such damaging examples.

That said, now the place should be flooded with all kind of criminals from all around ex-CIS.

 

[Sampanviking]

Just reviewing some of the potential implications of US supplying aid to Georgia.

(i) Could it push Russia to occupy Georgia and install a puppet regime?
(ii) Could it push Russia to supply aid via Iran to Iraqi insurgents?
(iii) Could it push Russia to supply aid to Taliban? <-- unlikely though...
(iv) Will this have an implication on Russo-Sino ties...

The next US president will inherit strained relations with Russia and have an interesting situation to deal with.

Interesting to review what kind of military aid the US is/will be supplying. Stingers will be a major boost (reminiscent of what it did in Afghanistan).
Avengers are another item that could play a significant role with its added mobility.
Javelins/AT4s may have a significant impact too on Russian tank movements. Sending Abrams could be a major surprise.

China and Russia are in the same security organisation the SCO and it is interesting just how much this has not been mentioned. China and Russia both share the same strategic objectives and Chinese support for the Russian action is a given. Indeed you only need see the reaction to Hu meeting Putin at Beijing on Friday to know that there is real warmth it that friendship and that Hu was fully aware of the crisis that was by then fully developed.

 

[Pro'forma]

Most of us think russia federation must be much, much more active
processing ongoing peace wordwide.

And become voluntary and on its own initiative.
Not to be too shy, or go back in time or processing negativity.

 

[mickk]

What [abusive word removed. Alternative = bothers] me the most, is that we know Putin is in de facto control. OK I can live with that, its Russia, they do things differently.

But there is another option open to them. That is to stop this half in half out attitude to capitalism. Stop using military aggression to restore national pride, bulid a [abusive word removed] dam or something, grow some wheat for gods sake.

Stop being so paranoid, just trade and concerntrate on local econimic prosperity, build an underground pipeline, buiold the worlds most advanced subterrainian infastructure.

Killing old people doesnt achieve anything. Its clear from the media that there was no one under 30 left to attack, they had all fled by the time you set the dogs loose.

Its just a feeble attempt to restore lost pride after Afghanistan. Afghanistan is over, move on, you cant get back the past.

No one wants to invade Russia, WW2 wont be repeated, youre Sovreignty is not at stake. Russia could make more money through Tourism than by any other means.

National pride can be restored through tourism and other means.

Stop the Nationalsit chest thumping, its not required, wont achieve anything other than misery.

Vlad cant let go until he has some kind of Military victory. I used to think he was smarter than that but now I fear hes just a madman.

If you want a fight, pick on China and see how far you get.


mickk try to keep emotions out of the thread & while you are doing that try not use abusive words found in your 'this' post.

-SABRE

 

[Chrom]

What **** me the most, is that we know Putin is in de facto control. OK I can live with that, its Russia, they do things differently.

But there is another option open to them. That is to stop this half in half out attitude to capitalism. Stop using military aggression to restore national pride, bulid a ****** dam or something, grow some wheat for gods sake.



Stop being so paranoid, just trade and concerntrate on local econimic prosperity, build an underground pipeline, buiold the worlds most advanced subterrainian infastructure.

Killing old people doesnt achieve anything. Its clear from the media that there was no one under 30 left to attack, they had all fled by the time you set the dogs loose.

Its just a feeble attempt to restore lost pride after Afghanistan. Afghanistan is over, move on, you cant get back the past.

No one wants to invade Russia, WW2 wont be repeated, youre Sovreignty is not at stake. Russia could make more money through Tourism than by any other means.

National pride can be restored through tourism and other means.

Stop the Nationalsit chest thumping, its not required, wont achieve anything other than misery.

Vlad cant let go until he has some kind of Military victory. I used to think he was smarter than that but now I fear hes just a madman.

If you want a fight, pick on China and see how far you get.

Please, let propaganda out of this thread.


Please leave the onliners, which do not contribute to the discussion, out of this thread. If anyone has a problem with another member please contact the moderators.

-SABRE

 

[mickk]

Propaganda?

Geeze, Im giving my opinion based on fact.

Propaganda is fictional opinion given by a participating side, largely based on political objecitives, neither apply to me.

 

[steppewolf]

maybe somebody can explain to me a thing:

I remember that is an tunnel trough mountain to access from Russia to South Ossetia. Why the georgians didnt blow up that tunnel? I figure that this will complicated a lot russian logistic in south ossetian territory