China Wants To Target US Aircraft Carriers

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Schumacher

New Member
Here's something I've found from the Economist analyzing what we've talked abt earlier regarding the new PPP figures.
It seems the time for China to become the biggest GDP based on this new figures is predicted to be within 10 yrs. No mention of how long it was predicted based on the old figures though.
Also, as I've mentioned, that China's official position has always been to downplay it's GDP which I think is something to take note of considering the data World Bank used this time is from the Chinese.

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10329268

Recalculating China's GDP

Clipping the dragon's wings
Dec 19th 2007 | HONG KONG
From The Economist print edition


China's economy is smaller than was thought

AMERICANS may well be delighted by new figures that show China's GDP is 40% smaller than previously thought. Has the devious Beijing government been massaging the numbers, as communist planners are wont to do? Hardly. China's GDP in yuan terms remains unchanged. What has happened is that the World Bank has changed the calculations it uses to make international comparisons of the size of economies.

Converting a poor country's GDP into dollars at market exchange rates can understate the true size because a dollar buys much more in an emerging market such as China than it does in America. The IMF and the World Bank therefore prefer to convert GDPs into dollars using purchasing-power parities (or PPPs), which take account of price differences between countries.

Previous estimates of China's PPP were largely guesswork. Now the World Bank has produced new calculations based on a survey of prices of over 1,000 goods and services in 146 countries, including China for the first time. On this basis, China's GDP in 2005 was $5.3 trillion, compared with $2.2 trillion using market exchange rates and $8.9 trillion using previous PPP estimates. This was still well below America's $12.4 trillion that year (see chart).

But this does not mean China's economic miracle has been just a statistical artefact. The revisions do not reduce China's growth rate—the fastest over 30 years of any large country in history. It remains the world's largest producer and consumer of steel, the second-biggest user of energy and even on revised figures the world's second-largest economy. In 2008 it is almost certain to overtake Germany as the world's largest exporter, and assuming recent rates of growth are sustained, within ten years it will overtake America (in PPP terms) as the world's largest economy.

China itself has always played down the PPP numbers, hoping to portray itself as a poor country so America will give it more leeway when arguing about exchange rates and trade. China's policymakers will not be unhappy with their new, slimline figure. Indians, in contrast, love to boast that their GDP overtook Japan's in 2006 to become the world's third-biggest. Unfortunately, this is no longer true: its GDP has also been slashed by almost 40%.

With Brazil's GDP also down a bit, the share of emerging economies in world output (including Asia's newly industrialising economies) has been cut to 46% in 2005, compared with over 50% on the old numbers. Their economic dominance has merely been postponed.
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
"It remains the world's largest producer and consumer of steel, the second-biggest user of energy and even on revised figures the world's second-largest economy. In 2008 it is almost certain to overtake Germany as the world's largest exporter, and assuming recent rates of growth are sustained, within ten years it will overtake America (in PPP terms) as the world's largest economy."

All well and good and with over a billion more people something like 1.4b vs 300m that should be expected as the nation modernizes and becomes a major consumer/exporter nation.

But is it sustainable?

Strange to me that it hasnt overtaken Germany.

The nation uses a lot of finite resourses not unlike the US and with more than four times the population with increasingly higher expectations in addition to maintaining a strong export industrial base the use of a large volume of necessary raw materials is not likely to decrease any time soon.

What are their reserves in iron ore, oil, coal etc.?

What are the true costs of moving to hydroelectric and nuclear power?

Is their large stake in US investment vehicles wise for the long-term?

Will China be able to sustain large exports to the US? If not what will replace that market? Its domestic market?

I doubt the US economy will support a sustained imbalance in trade along with the fact some of its domestic producers are winning back business as Ive related before.

The US too is likely to turn far more inward than is now the case with a coming political change. How will this effect Chinese fortunes?

What if as many have predicted the US economy collapses or implodes?

In some ways that may be good for China as oil/ Nat gas prices would likley plummet precipitously.

The US economy runs on energy if the economy disinegrates so will energy consumption.

In no way am I attempting to denigrate China so please dont construe my remarks as such.

I just have questions.
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The below article that provided an excerpt of also contains some other interesting observations:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/opinion/16furman.html

“The one piece of good news, contrary to public perception, is the falling dollar. It is increasing exports and slowing imports, thus helping to prop up the American economy. Net exports added 1.4 percentage points to economic growth over the past six months, more than making up for the 0.7 percentage point subtracted by the decline in residential construction. Exports should continue to grow over the coming year.”

http://www.commerce.gov/s/groups/public/@doc/@os/@opa/documents/content/prod01_002835.pdf

U.S. EXPORTS FACT SHEET
February 13, 2007
EXPORT OVERVIEW
In 2006 U.S. exports grew by 12.7 percent over 2005 to $1.4 trillion, while imports increased 10.5
percent to $2.2 trillion. To compare, in 2005 Japan’s GDP was $4.91 trillion and Russia’s GDP
was $733 billion.
Exports comprised 11.1 percent of U.S. GDP in 2006, the highest ever in dollar terms. It was 5.2
percent 50 years ago and 9.6 in 2002.
Although petroleum imports reached a record high of $303 billion in 2006, the rate of growth
declined by nearly half, slowing from 39.6 percent in 2005 to 20.1 percent in 2006. Excluding
petroleum products, the U.S. goods trade deficit grew by only 1.7 percent ($8.9 billion) in 2006.
International travel is one of the largest exports for the United States, ranking ahead of agricultural
goods and motor vehicles. Purchases of services and goods by foreign travelers, including
expenditures for food, lodging, recreations, and gifts while in the U.S. are counted as U.S. exports.
Last year, international visitors spent a record $107.4 billion in travel receipts including passenger
fares for the U.S., an increase of 5 percent over 2005. 2006 marked the eighteenth consecutive
year that the United States has enjoyed a travel and tourism balance of trade surplus -- $7.3 billion
in 2006.
EXPORTS TO CHINA
China is our fourth largest export market. Exports of goods to China have grown by 31.7 percent in
2006, while imports have increased 18.2 percent during the same period.
U.S. exports to China in 2006 were greater than U.S. exports to India, Brazil and France combined.
EXPORTS TO FREE TRADE AGREEMENT COUNTRIES
U.S. Free Trade Agreement (FTA) partners make up 7.3 percent of the world’s GDP (excluding the
U.S.), and exports to these countries comprise more than 42 percent of total U.S. exports. As of
February 13, 2007 the U.S. has FTAs in force with 13 countries*
EXPORTS TO CENTRAL AMERICA
Free Trade Agreements are in force with four CAFTA countries (El Salvador, Guatemala,
Honduras and Nicaragua) and are awaiting implementation in two (Costa Rica and the
Dominican Republic). Negotiations were recently concluded with Panama.
U.S. exports to the above seven Central American countries were $22.3 billion in 2006, an
increase of 17.1 percent over 2005. To compare, U.S. exports to these seven Central American
countries are larger than American exports to Spain, Russia and Argentina combined.
*Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Chile, Israel, Jordan, Mexico, Morocco and Singapore, and four Central American
countries: El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua. Agreements with Colombia, Costa Rica, the
Dominican Republic, Oman, Panama and Peru are awaiting implementation, and FTAs with Korea and Malaysia
are currently under negotiation.
U.S DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

The next export report is due out Decemeber 28th.
 

Schumacher

New Member
.......
In no way am I attempting to denigrate China so please dont construe my remarks as such.

I just have questions.
And very good questions indeed. These are the million dollars questions asked by decision makers around the world.
Those who can predict the correct answers to more than a few of them can very likely gain substantial fortune.

And Rick, here's an article just found that's related to one of your questions about the future of China's own domestic market. They want to subsidize home appliances to the farmers in part to fix the export vs domestic issues U mentioned. And probably to use IT to improve efficiencies in the farms.
The farmers definitely deserve these goodies but one can't help but worry abt the resources issue, another question you raised.


http://news.asiaone.com/print/News/AsiaOne+News/Asia/Story/A1Story20071223-42237.html

China grants farmers subsidy to buy TV, mobile phones

They will receive 13 per cent rebates from Dec to May next year. -Reuters

Sun, Dec 23, 2007
Reuters

BEIJING - CHINA will subsidise its huge rural population in purchases of electric appliances, aiming to boost domestic consumption and reduce ballooning trade surplus, the government said.

From December through May next year, farmers will receive 13 per cent rebates in prices for colour television sets, refrigerators and mobile phones, the Ministry of Finance said on Saturday on its website.

By 2010 the programme would divert 20 per cent of exports to the rural markets and reduce the trade surplus by US$10 billion (S$15 billion) annually, official Xinhua said, citing Mr Zeng Xiaoan, a ministry official as saying.

China's record trade surplus, with a rolling 12-month figure estimated at 260.3 billion in November, has drawn growing complaints from the United States and Europe over Beijing's trade policies.

The subsidy will start with three major agricultural provinces Shandong, Henan and Sichuan; and air conditioners and washing machines would join the subsidy list in the future, said the ministry.

Household appliance makers, including Haier, Hisense and Changhong are among the suppliers the government has picked for the programme, the ministry said.

'The move is meant to give farmers more benefits and divert more government expenditure into the consumer sector from fixed asset investment and the export industry,' Mr Zeng said.

China, the world's largest producer and exporter of household appliances, exported half its production, Mr Zeng said. -- REUTERS
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
...
Strange to me that it hasnt overtaken Germany.....
A huge proportion of German exports move quite a short distance, many of them on lorries. Like other EU countries, Germany trades a very large proportion of GDP with other EU members. It's the largest source of UK imports, for example.

Top ten sources of imports into UK, £bn, 2006
Germany 42.9
France 27.0
USA 25.8
Netherlands 22.4
Belgium + Lux 18.3
China 15.3
Norway 14.5
Italy 12.9
Spain 12.2
Ireland 10.8


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/Mm24Oct07.pdf
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Strange to me that it hasnt overtaken Germany.
Some numbers:

Chinese export growth rates however are falling considerably, in particular due to the low dollar; in the third quarter '07, Chinese export growth fell to +12.4% in year-to-year comparison. German exports, in the first three quarters of 2007, grew exactly +10.0%.

For an overall comparison, in the first three quarters of 2007:
- Chinese exports: $878.1 bn
- German exports: $1031.7 bn

Still quite a gap to close, especially when growth rates aren't really that far apart.

Top output market for Germany is the EU with a rather steady 65% share. For China, the EU last month actually overtook the USA as China's largest export market - $198.2 bn to the EU, $191.0 bn to the USA in the first ten months of 2007 (both just around 20% of Chinese export share, as Chinese sources treat HK as a separate entity in these statistics); and the US share is slowly falling.

(Sources: Chinese Department of General Economic Affairs, German Federal Statistics Agency)
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Let's what my current financially related job can help me answer.
But is it sustainable?
hard to say
The nation uses a lot of finite resourses not unlike the US and with more than four times the population with increasingly higher expectations in addition to maintaining a strong export industrial base the use of a large volume of necessary raw materials is not likely to decrease any time soon.

What are their reserves in iron ore, oil, coal etc.?
coal, supposedly will last 80 more years or something like that under the current projection compared to over 200 years for the rest of the world. Oil, I'm guessing probably similar to the rest of the world, not too long.
What are the true costs of moving to hydroelectric and nuclear power?
costs of hydroelectric are ecological and human related. Costs of nuclear power is up front, Chinese people have yet been bombarded with the scariness of nuclear energy as many Western countries have, that's why we are seeing the nuclear expansion. Actually, if you follow renewable energies sector, they are really making a play into the solar and wind power recently. Companies like LDK, JASO are all doing pretty well.
Is their large stake in US investment vehicles wise for the long-term?
It's kind of like choosing between treasury bond and a high yield bond. with US market, you are going to get less return, but you know it will always be there. Although, I personally find some of their recent investment to be not that great.
Will China be able to sustain large exports to the US? If not what will replace that market? Its domestic market?
might go down a little bit when US exports continue to grow and Chinese export stays relatively flat. But eventually domestic market will take over. If trade surplus with US is halved, then based on various economist and my own calculations, you are still looking at a 8 percent growth rate.
I doubt the US economy will support a sustained imbalance in trade along with the fact some of its domestic producers are winning back business as Ive related before.
and I hope so too, eventually it should settle into US/Japan kind of trade relation. Where China will still have some surplus, but nowhere near the news maker it is right now.
The US too is likely to turn far more inward than is now the case with a coming political change. How will this effect Chinese fortunes?

What if as many have predicted the US economy collapses or implodes?
it will hurt numerous industries in the short run, but as I mentionned before, it will still have around India/Pakistan level of growth from current studies.
In some ways that may be good for China as oil/ Nat gas prices would likley plummet precipitously.

The US economy runs on energy if the economy disinegrates so will energy consumption.

In no way am I attempting to denigrate China so please dont construe my remarks as such.

I just have questions.
But I don't think China would hope for any kind of US economic problem, other than the slower growth, it's own investments into different funds will also yield less.

It's kind of interesting that China actually looked into currency exchange and figure that an exchange of 5 is about the furthest it can push up to without really damaging the economy. I'd say that you can probably appease most US senators if it gets to around 6. Right now it's at 7.358, so they probably have around another 20% to go. Which going by the current pace will take another 2 years.
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In particular, iron ore imports from Australia and the United States have soared in the early 2000s as steel production rapidly outstripped domestic iron ore production.

Has this changed and how vulnerable does this make China?

Chinese economy, Chinese exports
Chinese exports won’t stay China is developing an inflation problem. Consumer prices rose at an annual rate of 6.9% in November, an 11-year high, spurred by an 18.2% jump in the cost of food, thanks to soaring pork prices.


But inflation is spreading beyond food: non-food prices posted their fastest jump this year, to 1.4% from 1.1% in October, as higher petrol and gas costs boosted utility bills; economists reckon this could be the main contributor to inflation next year. “The inflation issue has evolved into more of a macroeconomic problem,” said Huang Yiping of Citigroup.
As inflation is creeping up, reflecting the soaring prices of raw materials fuelling the economic boom, it will head west; cheaply manufactured goods that have helped keep a lid on inflation in the developed world “are set to become more expensive”, said Damian Reece in The Daily Telegraph.
China has also hinted that it could now let the yuan appreciate more quickly, noted Richard Spencer in the same paper, which would further raise the price of Chinese goods.


What next?

 

Transient

Member
why don't you read up on things rather than just taking wise cracks?
My 'wisecracks' hitting a bit close to the truth? :D

why don't you name the number of systems they did that for and I will name you all the systems that don't have anything to that. And please get your facts straight. I don't want anymore J-10 is a copy of F-16/Lavi kind of argument.
Why don't you read up on things rather than asking me to do the work?

their entire navy is built at a discount to what it would take to build an equivalent navy in US. Look at their shipbuilding industry, can US compare to that at all? We can go through the air force and army too.
Capability and complexity has its price. Can China build equivalent ships at the same price? Perhaps you didn't know, but labor costs account for only 32% of US surface ship costs.

have you seen their GDP chart? it has gone up as the years went by, showing no signs of a decline. Do you know what it was in 1999 and what it is now? Take a look. And how about this, name another economy that has sustained the growth rate that China has for the past 25 years.
And you're going to guarantee that China's growth rate will continue for the next 25 years?

right, how many of those do they have. Right, maintaining 3 carrier groups is the same as maintaining 11 carrier groups and 12 ESF. How many wars are they fighting in? Do they have responsibilities in the Western hemisphere? In the current state, China only needs to worry about East Asia and its energy route.
And yet increase in numbers of these assets contribute directly to capability. So how is it again that China has an advantage in capability by not needing to invest in such assets?

Going from 4800 tonne 072 to 20k+ tonne 071 (and never having the experience of building something that large other than replenishment ships), I would say that's a huge jump.
Building a ship of large displacement isn't anything impressive in itself. :rolleyes: You mean China hasn't constructed ships larger than that? What of those large tankers then?

The difference is in the complexity of the construction, whether mercantile standards were applied in its construction, or if they were built to warship construction standards. Again, that is partly the reason why US ships are more expensive.

Besides, wasn't it you who said that "It's cheaper to develop something you already seen."? So what's the great technological leap? Not as if it's something that wasn't developed before and they had no references to base their design on.

Anyone can see that except yourself. But I would guess you are going to discount it when they build the first 60k+ carrier on schedule and say that it's inferior to anything that USN has, so it requires no technological leap. How about this, name me systems in PLAN that you think represent technological leap compared to what they have before and we can discuss.
I never disuted it was a technological leap, I only mentioned that it wasn't a great technological leap. :p:

right, you are going to bring up an extremely remote project from the 80s. Why don't you go through all the recent USN delays in their major projects?
Because they are suffering from cost overruns? :nutkick But those are revolutionary, cutting edge developments, not some 'steal blueprint' kind of research.

2 helis? Have you seen the pictures?
yes I have. Have you? The hangar can accomodate 2~3. Perhaps 4, if the helis are small enough.

Sensors, how many of those sensors can you actually name?
Oh grand master of the 071, forgive me for my impudence. I didn't know only you kept the secrets to the names of the sensors on the 071.

Again, don't turn this into LPD-17 vs Type 71. It was never about that. I asked you where I compared LPD-17 to Type 71. Instead of answering me (which you probably won't do when you reply), you just continue to do more comparisons.
It was a direct comparison to based on your example "071 despite being a complete new program was actually launched right on schedule. Can we say the same about US?".

You are just turning it into that so that somehow you can turn this away from the original topic that PLAN builds its new systems on time and on budget.
Yeah, but can it build cutting edge systems on time and on budget? How about you tell us what's the budget for the 071 and how much it actually cost?

That they are not cutting back any of their programs. Which you can't say the same about USN. Funny how the South Koreans were able to do the same. It's amazing how having a competitive civilian shipbuilding industry helps. but of course, you will probably go back to comparing LPD-17 to Type 71.
CCP told you they weren't cutting back? Wow.

caught with whose pants down? I clearly said that they are capable of fighting without space assets and are trained for it. And you said, "Why put satellites up then? .... Who the hell are you trying to fool?" in response.
Let's see now, you are implying that I'm trying to fool the public by saying it's not helpful to put up the satellites.
You are implying they won't be affected by the loss of satellites. Any dolt can see that. You can't see what you yourself are saying?

Trying to spin what? What do I need to spin? That I don't think they've spent past 60 years fighting without space assets? no. That I don't think they are prepared to fight without space assets? no. That I think they will be better off without space assets? no. And do I think they can operate without a drastic drop off in combat effectiveness? Actually yes. They will have a drop off, but I would not call it drastic. Why don't you go through the areas they will have a drastic drop off and we can analyze.
Long range satellite based communications, early warning (detection and localisation) of enemy naval surface assets, targeting of enemy relocatable assets, loss of SIGINT. That not bad enough for you? Or is China's satellite based capabilities so bad that the loss of those satellites don't make much of a difference?

And notice all of the posts on this forum and how few people actually use taunting kind of smilies in spite of what they think about another person's post? You might want to work on your manners before continuing to reply to others.
Damned smilies. :D
 
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Firehorse

Banned Member
OK, they can't shoot all SATs , even when over China. How about using boomers for ASAT missions positioned in the Southern Ocean- do they all also have a 2hr window, simultaneously? Can they also shoot their own, creating multiple debrie fields to force other SATs to collide or move on useless orbits?

To prevent deployment of naval forces into western Pacific waters, PLA planners are focused on targeting surface ships at long ranges. Analyses of current and projected force structure improvements suggest that in the near term, China is seeking the capacity to hold surface ships at risk through a layered defense that reaches out to the “second island chain” (i.e., the islands extending south and east from Japan, to and beyond Guam in the western Pacific Ocean). One area of apparent investment emphasis involves a combination of mediumrange ballistic missiles, C4ISR for geo-location of targets, and onboard guidance systems for terminal homing to strike surface ships on the high seas or their onshore support infrastructure. This capability would have particular significance, owing to the preemptive and coercive options it would provide China in a regional crisis.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2007/2007-prc-military-power04.htm
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
My 'wisecracks' hitting a bit close to the truth? :D
considering your lack of knowledge in PLA, I would say that's no better than wisecracks by the china-haters on SP or FR.
Why don't you read up on things rather than asking me to do the work?
so basically, you know you can't possibly name more and come up with this kind of question.
Capability and complexity has its price. Can China build equivalent ships at the same price? Perhaps you didn't know, but labor costs account for only 32% of US surface ship costs.
US surface ships are continuously going way overbudget. Regardless of how much labour costs represent, that doesn't change these facts. And yes, given a ship of same technical level, China can build it far more cheaply.
And you're going to guarantee that China's growth rate will continue for the next 25 years?
Why does it need to sustain this rate for another 25 years? Every economist that I read has indicated that Chinese growth rate will remain high for the forseeable future.

And yet increase in numbers of these assets contribute directly to capability. So how is it again that China has an advantage in capability by not needing to invest in such assets?
You see, when you invest to build a navy to take care of a limited area of the world (ie: within first chain), you will need a far smaller budget than if you are building a navy to take care of the entire world. Simple logic.
Building a ship of large displacement isn't anything impressive in itself. :rolleyes: You mean China hasn't constructed ships larger than that? What of those large tankers then?

The difference is in the complexity of the construction, whether mercantile standards were applied in its construction, or if they were built to warship construction standards. Again, that is partly the reason why US ships are more expensive.
Why are you even bringing civilian ships into this? Clearly, 071 is built to military standard. You can't compare building a bulk carrier to a LNG carrier and you certainly can't compare that to a LPD.
Besides, wasn't it you who said that "It's cheaper to develop something you already seen."? So what's the great technological leap? Not as if it's something that wasn't developed before and they had no references to base their design on.
That's like saying since we've seen pictures of F-22 and use some of its ideas as a reference to a new 5th generation fighter for lower cost. Then, it's not a great technological leap over my 4th generation fighter. Fact is, up to Type 071, China had not built anything to that complexity in a military sense. Going from 072 to 071 is a complete different ball game. Anyone can see that, except you.

I never disuted it was a technological leap, I only mentioned that it wasn't a great technological leap. :p:
why don't you name a ship in PLAN that represents a great technological leap over the unit that it's replacing and we can talk about whether it's on budget or not.
Because they are suffering from cost overruns? :nutkick But those are revolutionary, cutting edge developments, not some 'steal blueprint' kind of research.
That's like saying just because LNG carriers are not revolutionary to south korea in 2005, it's not revolutionary to China in 2005. If you have never built something close to its complexity and don't have the know-hows for something and have to develop it, it's always going to be a huge challenge.

Let's put it this way, I'm developing an algorithm for pricing FI bonds. Now, there are already algorithms out there that does this. I have some ideas of what they methodologies they used. Does that mean it's not a huge leap for me to develop it still?
yes I have. Have you? The hangar can accomodate 2~3. Perhaps 4, if the helis are small enough.
so you shouldn't be dissing 071 by saying it can only accomodate 2 helos, it depends on whether they put Z-8K or helix or Z-9C in there.
Oh grand master of the 071, forgive me for my impudence. I didn't know only you kept the secrets to the names of the sensors on the 071.
well, since there are still sensors I don't know, then obviously there are plenty of sensors you don't know.
It was a direct comparison to based on your example "071 despite being a complete new program was actually launched right on schedule. Can we say the same about US?".
It wasn't about LPD, but rather a new program in general. Clearly, I was mentioning in the context of new ship class. And how all the PLAN ship classes are completing on time and schedule. And you can't say the same for USN.

Look, if you don't think the ships they are building in the recent years are a generation leap over 2002. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You need to look at what PLAN had in 2002, to see what they were capable of building then and what they are capable of building now. I wrote an entire blog entry on this.

Yeah, but can it build cutting edge systems on time and on budget? How about you tell us what's the budget for the 071 and how much it actually cost?
071's launch deadline was end of 2006 and it made it. Same with the 1st unit of 054A in HD and it made it. As for budget, seeing the amount that PLAN paid for these two ships (the headline catchers from 2007), I just can't imagine it being over budget.
CCP told you they weren't cutting back? Wow.
every project that was heavily mentionned on Chinese bbs were built. Seeing their recent building spree, can you think of a class of ship that makes sense for PLAN that they haven't built?
You are implying they won't be affected by the loss of satellites. Any dolt can see that. You can't see what you yourself are saying?
"they've spent the past 60 years fighting without space assets, I'm sure they are used to it by now, lol."
no mention that they won't be affected by loss of satellites. but that they are capable of fighting without it.
Long range satellite based communications, early warning (detection and localisation) of enemy naval surface assets, targeting of enemy relocatable assets, loss of SIGINT. That not bad enough for you? Or is China's satellite based capabilities so bad that the loss of those satellites don't make much of a difference?
for the first one, they have backups for that (it helps when you are fighting close to your homeland). The second one will probably be the biggest loss (but weren't you the one that said they didn't have enough military imagine satellites a couple of weeks ago?). As for the last 2, they've gone on quite the surveillance upgrade in the last couple of years. You could check out Huitong's site for information on this. Although I would say even that's not a complete assessment.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
In particular, iron ore imports from Australia and the United States have soared in the early 2000s as steel production rapidly outstripped domestic iron ore production.

Has this changed and how vulnerable does this make China?

Chinese economy, Chinese exports
Chinese exports won’t stay China is developing an inflation problem. Consumer prices rose at an annual rate of 6.9% in November, an 11-year high, spurred by an 18.2% jump in the cost of food, thanks to soaring pork prices.


But inflation is spreading beyond food: non-food prices posted their fastest jump this year, to 1.4% from 1.1% in October, as higher petrol and gas costs boosted utility bills; economists reckon this could be the main contributor to inflation next year. “The inflation issue has evolved into more of a macroeconomic problem,” said Huang Yiping of Citigroup.
As inflation is creeping up, reflecting the soaring prices of raw materials fuelling the economic boom, it will head west; cheaply manufactured goods that have helped keep a lid on inflation in the developed world “are set to become more expensive”, said Damian Reece in The Daily Telegraph.
China has also hinted that it could now let the yuan appreciate more quickly, noted Richard Spencer in the same paper, which would further raise the price of Chinese goods.


What next?

I think it's quite natural to have this kind of inflation when people are simply making more money. What it means is obviously the quality of living standard would not be increasing as much as the GDP increase indicates. In fact, China had a huge inflation problem in the early 90s. That was followed by a period of deflation. I'm not saying that deflation will happen, but I believe these things come in cycles.
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Is this what the Chinese really think? Or anyone else for that matter?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/25/content_7309348.htm

And its why Ive never understood this. While Russia rearms with its primary target the US: Not to mention supporting US avowed enemies like IRAN.:

“It is a matter of allocating $20 billion within ten years for cooperation priorities, including the disposal of decommissioned nuclear-powered submarines, chemical weapons and fissile materials, and the employment of former weapon-makers, he said.

G8 financial commitments until 2012 include $2 billion of Russia, $10 billion of the United States, 1.5 billion euros of Germany, one billion euros of the European Union, one billion euros of Italy, 750 million euros of Italy, $750 million of the United Kingdom, $650 million of Canada, and $200 million of Japan.”


China and Russia are US enemies by choice and after much US support during WWII and Russia again since the end of the Cold War and China again because of our open markets.

It makes little sense.

Except for the fact that Freedom and Tyranny are diametrically opposed and the first is what the US is based on no matter how flawed it may be viewed.

And Russia and China are founded on the second no matter how benevolent it may be viewed.

SO IMHO their can be no long-term peace until either the US renounces Freedom or China/Russia renounce Tyranny.

And if the coming US political change signals an intention to renounce Freedom in and for the US I predict a Civil War that will make the first US Civil war look like a walk in the park.

If it reaffirms Freedom then I predict Global War on a scale that will dwarf WWII by orders of magnitude.

Because Freedom and Tyranny cannot coexist fin the long-term w/o major conflict.

And IMHO the relatively peaceful “Cold War” was an aberration not the norm.

Although there is likely to be no winners only misery and suffering.

Unless someone gives in and Im not willing to give up Freedom and have it replaced by tyranny.

So for me its very simple.

Others can make it complicated but its really not.

Of course Im confused, delusional, paranoid, conspiratorial and insane.

Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Transient

Member
considering your lack of knowledge in PLA, I would say that's no better than wisecracks by the china-haters on SP or FR.
Not that I know less, it’s just that I don’t ‘imagine’ more capability for the PLAN just to suit my tendencies.

so basically, you know you can't possibly name more and come up with this kind of question.
There’s just too many to list them all out. Tell me, where did the 022 hullform come from?

US surface ships are continuously going way overbudget. Regardless of how much labour costs represent, that doesn't change these facts. And yes, given a ship of same technical level, China can build it far more cheaply.
Why don’t you read up instead of exhorting others to do so? The USN ship designs are pushing the state of the art for ship designs like the DD(X), China is only building conservative designs of the 80s. If the USN wanted such low capability ships, they won’t cost much more than what China is paying for her ships.

Why does it need to sustain this rate for another 25 years? Every economist that I read has indicated that Chinese growth rate will remain high for the forseeable future.
And China is going to overtake the US without continuous growth?

You see, when you invest to build a navy to take care of a limited area of the world (ie: within first chain), you will need a far smaller budget than if you are building a navy to take care of the entire world. Simple logic.
So more carriers, more sats, better NCW do not equate to more capability?

Why are you even bringing civilian ships into this? Clearly, 071 is built to military standard. You can't compare building a bulk carrier to a LNG carrier and you certainly can't compare that to a LPD.
Clearly? Then show me proof that 071 is built to Loyd’s commercial or Admiralty standards? Chinese equipment have traditionally been cheaper not just because of lower manpower, but because they have used lower quality materials and also because of lower construction standards. Building to Admiralty standards doesn’t come cheap.

That's like saying since we've seen pictures of F-22 and use some of its ideas as a reference to a new 5th generation fighter for lower cost. Then, it's not a great technological leap over my 4th generation fighter. Fact is, up to Type 071, China had not built anything to that complexity in a military sense. Going from 072 to 071 is a complete different ball game. Anyone can see that, except you.
Is it an advancement? Yes. But that is tampered by the fact 1. they had existing references to base their design on 2. The basic design of LSDs was already achievable in WW2, which illustrates just how complex it was. So there really isn’t anything so fantastic about this achievement as you make it out to be. We don’t know yet how well it performs. If it performs well it’s an achievement. If it doesn’t, it just looks like an achievement.

why don't you name a ship in PLAN that represents a great technological leap over the unit that it's replacing and we can talk about whether it's on budget or not.
Why do so when you won’t know the answer to that? You will just ‘can’t imagine’ it to be over-budget.

That's like saying just because LNG carriers are not revolutionary to south korea in 2005, it's not revolutionary to China in 2005. If you have never built something close to its complexity and don't have the know-hows for something and have to develop it, it's always going to be a huge challenge.
A challenge? Yes. A huge challenge? Depends.

so you shouldn't be dissing 071 by saying it can only accomodate 2 helos, it depends on whether they put Z-8K or helix or Z-9C in there.
Did I diss it based on the number of helis it could carry? Point out where I did so?

well, since there are still sensors I don't know, then obviously there are plenty of sensors you don't know.
Looking at the sensors and antennas on board, it certainly is clear that the 071 falls far behind in terms of connectivity and situational awareness. Does it have a CEC equivalent? How many SATCOM dishes are there? Does it have an Outboard equivalent? Is it designed with survivability that allows for independent operations?

It wasn't about LPD, but rather a new program in general. Clearly, I was mentioning in the context of new ship class. And how all the PLAN ship classes are completing on time and schedule. And you can't say the same for USN.
As I said, less complex and thus less capable ships are easy to build.

Look, if you don't think the ships they are building in the recent years are a generation leap over 2002. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You need to look at what PLAN had in 2002, to see what they were capable of building then and what they are capable of building now. I wrote an entire blog entry on this.
They are more capable, but that’s because PLAN ships in 2002 were that incapable. Besides, it is not like they improved on their own. German shipbuilding expertise and stolen designs from ASC certainly helped much.

071's launch deadline was end of 2006 and it made it. Same with the 1st unit of 054A in HD and it made it. As for budget, seeing the amount that PLAN paid for these two ships (the headline catchers from 2007), I just can't imagine it being over budget.
You ‘can’t imagine’. How much did they pay for those? Oh, serious sources please, not some fanboy figures.

every project that was heavily mentionned on Chinese bbs were built. Seeing their recent building spree, can you think of a class of ship that makes sense for PLAN that they haven't built?
So every project is heavily mentioned? Plans that were canceled must definitely be mentioned?

no mention that they won't be affected by loss of satellites. but that they are capable of fighting without it.
Don’t be master of the obvious. Any military can fight without satellites. The only difference is how much of a performance hit they take when satellites are lost.

for the first one, they have backups for that (it helps when you are fighting close to your homeland
Like HF comms? Which makes your position known to Classic Outboard and Bullseye?

). The second one will probably be the biggest loss (but weren't you the one that said they didn't have enough military imagine satellites a couple of weeks ago?).
Never heard of Sigint?

As for the last 2, they've gone on quite the surveillance upgrade in the last couple of years. You could check out Huitong's site for information on this. Although I would say even that's not a complete assessment
Which doesn’t discount the fact that whatever capability satellites give is lost when they are down.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tphuang

Super Moderator
Is this what the Chinese really think? Or anyone else for that matter?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/25/content_7309348.htm

And its why Ive never understood this. While Russia rearms with its primary target the US: Not to mention supporting US avowed enemies like IRAN.:

“It is a matter of allocating $20 billion within ten years for cooperation priorities, including the disposal of decommissioned nuclear-powered submarines, chemical weapons and fissile materials, and the employment of former weapon-makers, he said.

G8 financial commitments until 2012 include $2 billion of Russia, $10 billion of the United States, 1.5 billion euros of Germany, one billion euros of the European Union, one billion euros of Italy, 750 million euros of Italy, $750 million of the United Kingdom, $650 million of Canada, and $200 million of Japan.”


China and Russia are US enemies by choice and after much US support during WWII and Russia again since the end of the Cold War and China again because of our open markets.

It makes little sense.

Except for the fact that Freedom and Tyranny are diametrically opposed and the first is what the US is based on no matter how flawed it may be viewed.

And Russia and China are founded on the second no matter how benevolent it may be viewed.

SO IMHO their can be no long-term peace until either the US renounces Freedom or China/Russia renounce Tyranny.

And if the coming US political change signals an intention to renounce Freedom in and for the US I predict a Civil War that will make the first US Civil war look like a walk in the park.

If it reaffirms Freedom then I predict Global War on a scale that will dwarf WWII by orders of magnitude.

Because Freedom and Tyranny cannot coexist fin the long-term w/o major conflict.

And IMHO the relatively peaceful “Cold War” was an aberration not the norm.

Although there is likely to be no winners only misery and suffering.

Unless someone gives in and Im not willing to give up Freedom and have it replaced by tyranny.

So for me its very simple.

Others can make it complicated but its really not.

Of course Im confused, delusional, paranoid, conspiratorial and insane.

Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
is this how Chinese people think? I would say generally so. So, I will just say that I would imagine the Russians feel this way too. That's why you are seeing a warmer relationship between China and Russia. Except that you need to think why China/Russia have problems with US policies.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Not that I know less, it’s just that I don’t ‘imagine’ more capability for the PLAN just to suit my tendencies.
you know very little about PLAN, you didn't even know which versions of shtil missiles each of the Chinese ships until I told you. How are you going to know the less open stuff?
There’s just too many to list them all out. Tell me, where did the 022 hullform come from?
so you named one, com'on, list more. And where do you think the majority of important stuff on 022 comes from? Do you think that hull made 022 what it is? For each example you come up with, I can list far more the other way.
Why don’t you read up instead of exhorting others to do so? The USN ship designs are pushing the state of the art for ship designs like the DD(X), China is only building conservative designs of the 80s. If the USN wanted such low capability ships, they won’t cost much more than what China is paying for her ships.
You are trying to debate with me on Chinese military. You argue without knowing how PLA works. Right, lets see them try to build 022 for $15 million or 054A for $200 million. You think they can do that?
And China is going to overtake the US without continuous growth?
all economist that I've read have predicted much higher growth for China than US for the foreseeable future. Maybe not 11%, but still above 6%. You think US is capable of anything close to that? Read reuters, read bloomberg news, read WSJ, listen to what the experts have to say, before trying to talk to me on this.
So more carriers, more sats, better NCW do not equate to more capability?
when did I say it's not more capability? You are clearly sidestepping my point that less responsibility means the need for less strategic assets.
Clearly? Then show me proof that 071 is built to Loyd’s commercial or Admiralty standards? Chinese equipment have traditionally been cheaper not just because of lower manpower, but because they have used lower quality materials and also because of lower construction standards. Building to Admiralty standards doesn’t come cheap.
Why don't you show me proof on the other side? Pakistan, Iran, Algeria and Thailand have all bought military ships from China in the recent years. Would they be buying if these ships aren't military grade? Since the question is whether or not Chinese military ships are built to military standards. Let's put it this way, only a limited number of shipyards in China are allowed to build military grade ships. Only a limited number of steel factories in China are allowed to produce military grade steels. Only 2 steel factories out of all the steel producers could come up with steel that fits their requirements for aircraft carrier deck. If these are not built to military standard, why would there be restrictions like this.

Is it an advancement? Yes. But that is tampered by the fact 1. they had existing references to base their design on
They don't have the blue prints to any of those nice American LSD. They have to incorporate their own sets of electronics/weapon suite. How much help can you get just looking at a ship and reading declassified document? When China first won an export order in the 90s to build frigates for Thailand. It made a lot of mistakes on the ship design, because it had previously only been building Jianghu class. We are now talking about moving from 4800 tonne 072 to 20000+ tonne 071. You cannot be serious in not calling that a huge challenge for HD.
2. The basic design of LSDs was already achievable in WW2, which illustrates just how complex it was. So there really isn’t anything so fantastic about this achievement as you make it out to be. We don’t know yet how well it performs. If it performs well it’s an achievement. If it doesn’t, it just looks like an achievement.
Let's put it this way, Ivan Rogov class was available to China. China did not think it matched their requirements. So clearly, there is no point equating it with something from WW2.
Why do so when you won’t know the answer to that? You will just ‘can’t imagine’ it to be over-budget.
let's put it this way, compared to other ships in that class. If the costs I found are over-budget, then the original quoted price would be less than half of what an equivalent class ship will be. We bought Sovs for $700 million each, the Indians bought Talwar for 300 to 400 million, yet the lead vessels in 054A (which exceed sovs in many areas) class cost $200 million.

Did I diss it based on the number of helis it could carry? Point out where I did so?
I would call understating number a diss.

Looking at the sensors and antennas on board, it certainly is clear that the 071 falls far behind in terms of connectivity and situational awareness. Does it have a CEC equivalent? How many SATCOM dishes are there? Does it have an Outboard equivalent? Is it designed with survivability that allows for independent operations?
CEC, it fuses data from the sensors on board, but it's not clear what kind of integration it has with surrounding ships. 071 is certainly expected at the moment to be able to handle multiple concurrent supersonic strikes. how many satcom dishes? I never counted. Survivability, from what I read, I would say so.
As I said, less complex and thus less capable ships are easy to build.
They are more capable, but that’s because PLAN ships in 2002 were that incapable. Besides, it is not like they improved on their own. German shipbuilding expertise and stolen designs from ASC certainly helped much.
That's the point. Everything they have now is clearly 1 or 2 generations ahead of what they had at that time. So, clearly they are making a generation leap compared to what they were building. They had never built ships like that or integrated the way they have now. It's all new to the them. Regardless of whether what they are producing is advanced compare to American stuff or not, they are making a generation leap, so it's a huge challenge. It's not about Chinese technology being better but they had an easier time keeping things on time/schedule when encountering a huge leap.
You ‘can’t imagine’. How much did they pay for those? Oh, serious sources please, not some fanboy figures.
As I mentionned, you don't see cut backs, you see PLAN getting those ships at low cost.

So every project is heavily mentioned? Plans that were canceled must definitely be mentioned?
yeah, every major project. I already made mention of what the next big projects are on my blog. You can check it out.
Don’t be master of the obvious. Any military can fight without satellites. The only difference is how much of a performance hit they take when satellites are lost.
right, I'm saying that I believe the hit will be limited.
Like HF comms? Which makes your position known to Classic Outboard and Bullseye?
try again.
Never heard of Sigint?

Which doesn’t discount the fact that whatever capability satellites give is lost when they are down.
so you first dismissed their satellite being able to help in other thread and now you are going the other direction, beautiful. They certainly have elint/sigint platforms in both the air force and the navy. Still behind the Americans, but it's expanding. Chinese are by nature extremely careful and wouldn't trust in just one or two sources.
 

Transient

Member
you know very little about PLAN, you didn't even know which versions of shtil missiles each of the Chinese ships until I told you. How are you going to know the less open stuff?
LOL, excuse me? I wasn’t the one who came up with the lame-ass excuse “What I posted had nothing to do with what PLAN ships had, but rather illustration of shtil's performance against sea-skimmers and how it's engaged” when he found that he posted information that wasn’t relevant. Now who doesn’t know what?

so you named one, com'on, list more. And where do you think the majority of important stuff on 022 comes from? Do you think that hull made 022 what it is? For each example you come up with, I can list far more the other way.
The hull of the 022 is the only technological advancement made. The rest of the 022 is mediocre at best. List more? I thought you were so proud of your expertise on the Chinese military? Why need me to do the work? You don’t even know how they do their ‘R&D’?

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/china/acquisition/acqpage7.html

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/china/acquisition/acqpage7.html

http://www.house.gov/coxreport/pref/preface.html

You are trying to debate with me on Chinese military. You argue without knowing how PLA works. Right, lets see them try to build 022 for $15 million or 054A for $200 million. You think they can do that?
I noticed how you neatly avoided giving me a source on those figures.

all economist that I've read have predicted much higher growth for China than US for the foreseeable future. Maybe not 11%, but still above 6%. You think US is capable of anything close to that? Read reuters, read bloomberg news, read WSJ, listen to what the experts have to say, before trying to talk to me on this.
Forseeable future. And how far ahead does foreseeable future mean? Of course the US is not capable of anything close to that. China’s still a developing country. How many developed countries have such high rates of growth? It’s hard to improve at such rates when you are at the top. China has a long way to go to the top.

when did I say it's not more capability? You are clearly sidestepping my point that less responsibility means the need for less strategic assets.
I was replying to this : “Would be nice if you elaborate on why you think China has no hope of winning this arms race.”

Let’s see. You claim that China can have more capability because it doesn’t have to develop some assets because it has less global responsibility. You then claim that because of that, it need only maintain 3 carrier groups. So I ask if 12 CSGs and 9 ESGs is less capability than 3 CSGs, and in reply you ask me “when did I say it's not more capability?” ROFLOL. :nutkick

Why don't you show me proof on the other side? Pakistan, Iran, Algeria and Thailand have all bought military ships from China in the recent years. Would they be buying if these ships aren't military grade? Since the question is whether or not Chinese military ships are built to military standards. Let's put it this way, only a limited number of shipyards in China are allowed to build military grade ships. Only a limited number of steel factories in China are allowed to produce military grade steels. Only 2 steel factories out of all the steel producers could come up with steel that fits their requirements for aircraft carrier deck. If these are not built to military standard, why would there be restrictions like this.
You don’t even know that military ships are not always built to Admiralty standards? Many warships are being built to commercial standards in an effort to save money. Some ‘expert’ indeed. And it was you who made the cock-sure claim that “Clearly, 071 is built to military standard.” So how about backing up your claim for once instead of diverting attention?

They don't have the blue prints to any of those nice American LSD. They have to incorporate their own sets of electronics/weapon suite. How much help can you get just looking at a ship and reading declassified document? When China first won an export order in the 90s to build frigates for Thailand. It made a lot of mistakes on the ship design, because it had previously only been building Jianghu class. We are now talking about moving from 4800 tonne 072 to 20000+ tonne 071. You cannot be serious in not calling that a huge challenge for HD.
But they can see the mistakes made and the lessons learned over the years in the design of amphibious ships. I’m just talking about the hull design. The electronics/weapons suite isn’t likely to be far removed in complexity from other warships, and is much more likely to be far simpler based on what we can see. Any technological leap there is is made in the hull form, and not in the electronics suite.

Let's put it this way, Ivan Rogov class was available to China. China did not think it matched their requirements. So clearly, there is no point equating it with something from WW2.
It might not have met their cost requirements instead of their operational requirements.

let's put it this way, compared to other ships in that class. If the costs I found are over-budget, then the original quoted price would be less than half of what an equivalent class ship will be. We bought Sovs for $700 million each, the Indians bought Talwar for 300 to 400 million, yet the lead vessels in 054A (which exceed sovs in many areas) class cost $200 million.
That is assuming the costs you cite are reliable in the first place.

I would call understating number a diss.
And I would call that bovine manure you are producing a desperate attempt to claw back some face.

CEC, it fuses data from the sensors on board, but it's not clear what kind of integration it has with surrounding ships.
CEC fuses data from sensors on board but not clear what integration it has with surrounding ships? LOL.

071 is certainly expected at the moment to be able to handle multiple concurrent supersonic strikes.
ROFLOL. With that sensor and weapons suite? Then Ticonderogas will be able to handle StarDestroyers.

how many satcom dishes? I never counted.
Nice way of sidestepping what you know, oh exalted PLA specialist. The 071 doesn’t have the connectivity that the LPD-17s have.

Survivability, from what I read, I would say so.
You’re reading too much propaganda material.

That's the point. Everything they have now is clearly 1 or 2 generations ahead of what they had at that time. So, clearly they are making a generation leap compared to what they were building. They had never built ships like that or integrated the way they have now. It's all new to the them. Regardless of whether what they are producing is advanced compare to American stuff or not, they are making a generation leap, so it's a huge challenge. It's not about Chinese technology being better but they had an easier time keeping things on time/schedule when encountering a huge leap.
Not such a huge leap when they are using Russian equipment as references at least, if not outright copying them.

As I mentionned, you don't see cut backs, you see PLAN getting those ships at low cost.
Yeah, when it’s the PLA and there’s something good, it doesn’t mean it isn’t there when you don’t see it. But when it’s something bad, it can’t be there when you don’t see it. :rolleyes:

yeah, every major project. I already made mention of what the next big projects are on my blog. You can check it out.
Wow. What’s your position that the PLAN informs you abut every project they plan, and even every project they cancel? Supervisor of Propoganda?

right, I'm saying that I believe the hit will be limited.
LOL, I can see that you have reached the limit in your ability to substantiate your stand.

try again.
You can’t provide an alternative? LOL.

so you first dismissed their satellite being able to help in other thread and now you are going the other direction, beautiful.
Don’t blame me if you are unable to understand the differences in capability between EO satellites and SIGINT satellites.

They certainly have elint/sigint platforms in both the air force and the navy. Still behind the Americans, but it's expanding. Chinese are by nature extremely careful and wouldn't trust in just one or two sources.
How many? Are they even in service? Or did you ‘not bother to check’?
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
While in the coming decades China anticipates that the continued success of its economic expansion will allow it to take a much more assertive geopolitical posture--projecting force far beyond its coastal waters--in the near-term the issue of Taiwan will remain the primary focus for Chinese policymakers. While ensuring Taiwan does not entertain ambitions of secession from the mainland, PLA military planners will also be forced to concern themselves with defeating a U.S. military that remains committed to the defense of Taiwan.
Just how does the PLA believe it can achieve this? Chinese strategists are not naive. They recognize that their military is only a decade or two removed from operational obscurity. And a Chinese conventional force able to challenge the United States is at least another decade away by the estimates of the most generous analysts. In summary, Chinese leaders face a strategic quandary where their interests in Taiwan are at risk, yet for the foreseeable future they cannot obtain the traditional military capabilities to secure those interest.
Should either a political or military event threaten the status quo in the Taiwan Strait, the U.S. will respond by diverting a Carrier Strike Group to the region. Chinese analysts understand that if this is allowed to happen, the United States will almost certainly achieve its objectives, emerging victorious should hostilities commence.
To deal with this dilemma the PLA has chosen to put its trust in an asymmetric strategy aimed at battlespace denial, or anti-access as it is more commonly known. Rather than confront the United States directly, the PLA believes it can acquire the capabilities to deter an American entrance into the Taiwan Strait, or, should this fail, delay U.S. forces the freedom to operate within the theatre.
Some observers have concluded that China's development of anti-access capabilities neither undermines U.S. sea control nor contributes to a war-wining capability. Such assertions may have been accurate as recently as earlier this decade, but at present, and increasingly in the next several years, this conclusion will appear to be guided more by an overconfidence in American capabilities than by pragmatic realism.
Consistent with the teachings of ancient Chinese warfare, anti-access is comprised of both military and political elements. The Chinese theoretician Sun Tzu wrote that, "supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." This would appear to be the primary aim of anti-access: successful diplomatic coercion through expanded asymmetric capabilities. In attempting to defeat a technologically superior adversary such as the United States, China does not need to control the sea or achieve ultimate military victory. A truly efficient implementation of anti-access doctrine would use the weapons systems at China's disposal in a manner that translates into a bloodless political victory.
Over the last decade China has committed itself to a deliberate and focused expansion of the PLA's capabilities, aimed primarily at acquiring the necessary platforms to serve this area-denial strategy.
Due to the importance of U.S. Carrier Strike Groups, the PLA has chosen to focus much of their attention on deterring and, if need be, delaying the entry of these floating sea bases into the Taiwan theatre. At the center of this effort is the PLA submarine fleet, which is growing at a rapid rate and, with the increased sophistication of its submarine classes, could pose a significant threat to American carriers. In the past decade China has commissioned 31 submarines. The majority of these are of the Song- and Yuan-class, which are outfitted with the 'air-independent propulsion" system that permits them to operate underwater for up to 40 days. In addition to enabling conventional submarines to avoid the costs of nuclear technology, the system allows the submarine to remain virtually undetectable to U.S. anti-submarine surveillance efforts. The sophistication of these new submarines became evident in October 2006 when a Chinese Song-class submarine was able to surface within torpedo range of the USS Kitty Hawk off the coast of Okinawa.
China also has three new nuclear-powered submarine designs and construction programs. The Type-093 Shang-class nuclear attack boat and the Type-094 Jin-class nuclear ballistic missile submarine, represent the basis of the nuclear submarine programs. The Type-095, a larger version of the Shang/Jin-classes, is also under construction. These numerous programs represent a submarine development campaign that is unprecedented in peacetime.
The development of maneuverability reentry vehicle (MaRVs) technology, capable of allowing ballistic missiles to destroy moving targets, will also contribute to expanding and overlapping the layers of the PLA anti-access strategy. These missiles, in coordination with a maritime surveillance and targeting system, could pose a direct threat to U.S. carriers patrolling in the Asia-Pacific. According to Pentagon estimates, Chinese missiles armed with MaRV technology could be deployed as early as 2015. China has also purchased Russian-built SS-N-22 Sunburn and SS-N-27 Sizzler anti-ship cruise missiles, designed specifically for targeting U.S. carrier strike groups and defeating the Aegis anti-missile system.
Chinese strategists, including PLA Major General Dia Qingmin, have written extensively on battlespace-denial, arguing that the true dominance of the U.S. military is in fact the result of its impressive integrated network of command, control, and communications systems. America's C4ISR network provides everything from target detection and identification to navigational information.
But just as this capability is its greatest asset, in the realm of asymmetry, it is also its greatest vulnerability. For this reason, the PLA has concluded that attacking information systems could offset U.S. capabilities much more efficiently than attacking traditional combat systems. In the event of a pending conflict in the Taiwan Strait, destroying a series of U.S. satellites--the central node of U.S. networks--could effectively paralyze U.S. combat capabilities, denying them the initiative on the battlefield and leveling the operational playing field. China's January 2007 anti-satellite test, which displayed the ability of the PLA to target and destroy satellites in orbit, represents a significant achievement for PLA anti-access capabilities.
The capability to severely disrupt America's C4ISR network, coupled with the deployment of advanced submarines and anti-ship missiles, presents a new form of strategic deterrence that is only recently receiving the attention it deserves. In a scenario where it is suspected China may play a belligerent role, the United States would be faced with a difficult decision concerning its commitments to Taiwan's defense. Acting too aggressively could trigger a Chinese preemptive attack on American satellite and communication systems, potentially disrupting the U.S. military's war-making ability in the Taiwan Strait and seriously jeopardizing ongoing operations around the globe. Alternatively, too weak of a response by the United States may only invite a more offensively inclined approach by the PLA, further increasing the potential danger facing the island democracy. The inevitable hesitation on the part of America may provide Beijing the time and space it needs to secure its objectives.

Should it come to war, Chinese strategists have determined that they need only inflict sufficient costs to force the United States to lose its willingness to continue the conflict. Chinese analysts Peng Guangqian and Yao Youzhi, among others, have concluded that "smashing the adversary's will to resist" is now more important then defeating its military forces--a maxim that resonates across the entire asymmetric sphere.
Both the civilian and military leadership in the United States begrudgingly recognize the opportunity cost phenomenon that affects democratic societies at war. If the PLA were to preemptively invade Taiwan, while conducting simultaneous battlespace-denial operations against the United States, how would American leaders respond after several weeks of costly engagements? When the United States eventually breaks through, would it then look to liberate Taiwan, or, more likely, conclude that risking a wider war with China over the small island democracy falls far outside its calculated national interest? PLA officer Jiang Lei analyzed the opportunity cost scenario further in his doctoral dissertation: "it is possible for the side with inferior equipment to strive to gain the initiative on the battlefield [ ] and compel the superior enemy to pull out of the conflict. Because the superpower must cope with the influence of its other fundamental strategic interest, the level of its intervention is limited; moreover, it will seek to win victory in the war at minimum cost." Successful area-denial operations, therefore, would enable Beijing to achieve its primary political objectives through a concerted effort to restrain America's will to fight an escalated war.
Clearly, a competitor armed with the ability to challenge America at the high-end of asymmetrical warfare poses a substantial dilemma. Is the United States prepared? Over the past decade anti-access has been accounted for and increasingly discussed in almost all high-level military documents. The 2006 Quadrennial Defense Review committed the U.S. military to countering "political anti-access and irregular warfare challenges." Indeed, the Navy's "Sea Shield" concept--part of its Seapower 21 vision--is solely intended to ensure continued freedom of access by countering enemy anti-access threats.
In addition to identifying the increased potential of area-denial strategies, the United States has invested itself in a number of political and military measures to ensure it remains adequately prepared in the coming years.
To help search out and destroy China's growing fleet of submarines, the United States has turned to the P-8A Poseidon, a modified Boeing 737-800 able to conduct area-wide anti-submarine warfare. The innovative capabilities of the Poseidon ensure it will be at the center of America's effort to counter China's area-denial efforts.
The Pentagon has also announced a $225 million upgrade for its Raytheon-built MK 15 Phalanx Close-In Weapons System (CIWS), a radar controlled gun designed to defend against low and high flying, maneuvering anti-ship missile threats. The Phalanx is also being sold to Australia as part of the deal, extending the anti-missile defensive capabilities of one of America's most important Pacific allies.
Finally, the U.S. and Australia have agreed to partner in the deployment of the Wideband Global Satellite Communications system (WGS). The Wideband satellite constellation, which will include six satellites by 2013, aims to provide advanced communications capabilities for U.S. and Australian warfighters. By jointly operating and owning the WGS system, the United States will not only increase its interoperability with a steadfast ally, but it will also create a geostrategic dilemma for China by forcing the PLA to target both U.S. and Australian military satellites in order to comprehensively paralyze American's command and control network. This implicit attempt to bind the space-based capabilities of both the United States and Australia is an example of the shrewd maneuvering the Pentagon must continue to make to stay ahead of the anti-access curve.
These measures represent only a variety of the steps being taken to deal with the anti-access threat. Because of the susceptibility of U.S. information networks, perhaps the greatest preparations the United States can make is to conduct military exercises without the use of continuous, high-bandwidth communications between units. This would enable the various military components (carriers, battleships, submarines and aircraft) to experience acting independently, or in a semi-autonomous state, more adequately preparing them to meet the requirements of a C4ISR-less environment.
While Washington continues to debate the potentiality of China becoming a "responsible stakeholder," the ways in which to successfully 'manage" its rise, and how best to increase PLA transparency, the PLA has remained committed to modernizing, expanding, and deploying an increasingly sophisticated military capable of seriously challenging American power. In the near term, instead of concerning themselves with the strengths of the U.S. military, PLA planners have diverted their attention to its weaknesses. In Iraq and Afghanistan, fighting an enemy that has deliberately exploited America's military and political weaknesses has proven to be an arduous task. Is America prepared to face the high-end asymmetric strategies being deployed by a Chinese state readying itself at all levels--political, military, and economic--to challenge U.S. predominance? The answer to this question will undoubtedly shape the geostrategic environment of the Asia-Pacific theater in the coming decades.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/532ftzqs.asp?pg=2
I couldn't say it better myself! Also, if the USN needs Chinese ports/airbases (KH HK/EP-3 incidents) in peacetime, how is it going to endure in wartime?
 

Sea Toby

New Member
This Christmas was the worst toy year in a long time, even the toy charities were having problems getting toys, off 90 percent. Thanks to the supervisors, the Chinese used lead paint.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I couldn't say it better myself! Also, if the USN needs Chinese ports/airbases (KH HK/EP-3 incidents) in peacetime, how is it going to endure in wartime?
Just want to examine this point.

First, a basis question: What do they need these bases for in peacetime?

Then a qualifying question: What differences are there of peacetime vs. hostilities with China that would change this reliance?

You are assuming (incorrectly) that the US relies on China to maintain a presence in that area of the Pacific. This is not true.

Airbases are a moot point; long range strikes can be conducted from the US itself with strategic bombers and tanking aircraft, and we have already ascertained that additional carriers would be enroute for aircraft with shorter legs. Additionally, the US could potentially base aircraft in Russia, India, Japan, South Korea, even Singapore.

Seaborne munitions and fueling support can be asserted via control of sea lanes and agreements with other nations already listed above and others such as Australia and New Zealand.
 
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