Wrong choice of AShM for delhi class destroyers?

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
No main gun eh Tatra? It's still a very useful capability having a large calibre deck mounted gun on a warship. This was evidenced by "5 inch Friday" when HMAS ANZAC used it's Mk 45 Mod 2 5 inch gun to pour long range accurate NGS fire onto Iraqi artillery batteries during GW2, completing silencing them in the process and allowing the Royal Marines to successfully advance... Even the 76mm gun on the FFG's wouldn't have been able to achieve this, and smaller is not really capable of performing this role...
 
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tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
No main gun eh Tatra? It's still a very useful capability having a large calibre deck mounted gun on a warship. This was evidenced by "5 inch Friday" when HMAS ANZAC used it's Mk 45 Mod 2 5 inch gun to pour long range accurate NGS fire onto Iraqi artillery batteries during GW2, completing silencing them in the process and allowing the Royal Marines to successfully advance... Even the 76mm gun on the FFG's wouldn't have been able to achieve this, and smaller is not really capable of performing this role...
Well, sure, but you have to Consider that the Dutch navy's main role in Nato was as convoy escort (i.e. emphasis on AAW and ASW)
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Pendekar said:
most of the former western navy ships sold to the third world countries navy was usually being striped of most of it's advance weapons and sensors. this is due to the financial and political consideration.
Not the case with the dutch ships.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
The Australian Adelaide Class FFG's are now undergoing an upgrade program to equip them with (among other things including ESSM, Harpoon Block II etc) the latest SM-2 Block IV SAM's, (after our SM-1 SAM system is becoming obsolete and difficult to support) to cover the long range air defence requirement for our navy until our AWD's arrive. The first upgraded ship (HMAS Sydney) is undergoing sea trials at present and is expected to be handed over to the RAN in May.
But Still they have Same VLS Launching system for both SSM and SAM which might reduce the space.
Russian have seperate Launchers for SSM and SAM.
It would still depend on Size and Volume the Missile System will occupy.

I Hope that P-15A Class Destroyers will be fitted with Barak-II SAM rather than the shitl Medium Range SAM.
 

Salman78

New Member
sunburn has a max range of 150km.
the 2nd post says the missile couldnt be delievered. duh.. it takes years to build a ship. how long will it take to deliever a missile to india when its already in production and being sold to chineese. indians themselves choose ss-n-25.
and where the hell did SAM and SR-71 came from in this thread..
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Salman78 said:
sunburn has a max range of 150km.
the 2nd post says the missile couldnt be delievered. duh.. it takes years to build a ship. how long will it take to deliever a missile to india when its already in production and being sold to chineese. indians themselves choose ss-n-25.
and where the hell did SAM and SR-71 came from in this thread..
If you choose not to believe then that's your business.

The plans for these ships date back to the late 1980s, well before China's purchase of Sovremenny's.

Here's a quote from Bharat-Rakshak about it: "The huge missile blast deflectors on INS Delhi indicate an original intention to fit the supersonic 3M-80 (NATO: SS-N-22 Sunburn) AShM which was deemed too costly. INS Mysore and INS Mumbai lack these blast deflectors." http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Delhi.html

Also: "Originally, plans called for equipping the ships with the supersonic Raduga 3M80 'Moskit' (NATO: SS-N-22 Sunburn) missiles but the implosion of the Soviet Union in 1991, with the consequent breakdown of the centralised arms procurement agencies threw the entire program into severe disarray. The non-availability of critical components saw the P15 program delayed by nearly four years. Changes to the missile armament were also necessary as the cost of the Sunburn missile reportedly exceeded the cost of the entire ship. Instead, the cost effective Harpoon clone, the 3M24E 'Uran' subsonic missile system was selected." http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-3/mazumdar.html
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
ajay_ijn said:
But Still they have Same VLS Launching system for both SSM and SAM which might reduce the space.
Russian have seperate Launchers for SSM and SAM.
It would still depend on Size and Volume the Missile System will occupy.

I Hope that P-15A Class Destroyers will be fitted with Barak-II SAM rather than the shitl Medium Range SAM.
R U suggesting Aussie improved OHP has Harpoon from VLS??! I think not.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
R U suggesting Aussie improved OHP has Harpoon from VLS??! I think not.
Why improved version,The basic version of Aussie adelaide Class Frigates Consists of Mk13 VLS which can launch SM-1 and Harpoon as well.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The Aussie FFG's use a rail launcher to fire their Harpoon Block 11 and SM-1/2 SAM's. The VLS is used only for ESSM, just as it is on the ANZAC frigates...
 

Salman78

New Member
poor planning, i'd say
ssn25 is not mach 3.0+. its mach 2.5 at its best.
god damnit. how the hell does the price of a missle exceed that of a ship.
stop reading bharat rakshak dude. they dont know crap.
 
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ajay_ijn

New Member
poor planning, i'd say
Poor Planning??
If u are talking about the Ashm then switchblade is also a good anti-ship Missile.
It has range of 130km,Mach 0.9 and goes at a level of 3 meters during the final phase.It is said to be comparable to the US Harpoon.

ssn25 is not mach 3.0+. its mach 2.5 at its best.
SS-N-25 is not supersonic at all.
It SS-N-22 that is Supersonic,It can go Mach 3 at high altitudes and Mach 2.1 at low atltitudes.
Naturally to aviod radar it would fly at low altitudes.
Speed depends upon which altitude it flies towards the target.

god damnit. how the hell does the price of a missle exceed that of a ship.
I don't know exactly how much sunburn costs but one source says that US did not aquire Sunburn from Russia becoz of High cost but tried to aquire Kh-31 Krypton which is also a supersonic Anti-ship Missile.Actually it is a secret deal so not much is known about it.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20589
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ajay_ijn said:
......................one source says that US did not aquire Sunburn from Russia becoz of High cost but tried to aquire Kh-31 Krypton which is also a supersonic Anti-ship Missile.Actually it is a secret deal so not much is known about it.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20589
Bollocks. It is common knowledge and is certainly not a "secret". I have discussed the Kh-31 deal on this forum (and about 4 others) ad nauseum.

Boeing had a commercial arrangement in 1999 to buy 50 Kh-31's as part of a US bid to design an AShM training missile. These missiles were originally going to replace the Sea Snake and Vandals that the USN uses to simulate supersonic cruise missiles.

Boeing established that the missiles were inadequate to perform the role, they had to modify the guidance systems, increase the range and make modifications to them so as to simulate other likely missile targets. The programme was dropped as the missile was seen as a failing exercise in development. It was rated as unsuitable for further development.

There is still substantial anger over how this deal transpire and there is ample documentation that was provided under US Senate Hearings about the fact that the USAF/Boeing fixed some fundamental missile behaiour issues and then passed that knowledge back to the Russians as an issue of "goodwill". This was in a period when the US and USSR had collaborated on a number of projects - but some said that as the US had modified the missile to perform properly, that those changes should not have been passed on. Clinton is heavily crticised for his role over this (he sanctioned the transfers as part of a process to further russian relations)

Although I loathe conspiracy theories and rumours with a passion, there are persistent comments that the USN has already acquired a Sunburn for development and testing.

The worldnetdaily article is a classical example of how the media promotes rubbish as fact and with a bit of proper research, they could have acquired a copy of the Senate Hearings documents for themselves which would have shown how idiotic their article and claims were. Not only is the worldnetdaily guilty of bad journalism, they are fundamentally guilty of misrepresentation and journalistic indolence.

As a legacy of Boeings reccomendation about the unsuitability of the Kh-31, the USN has reverted to using Sea Snakes and Vandals as supersonic cruise missile targets. A new system is currently under development.

It might be pertinent to remind everyone that the USN has been training against supersonic cruise missiles since the 70's and actually developed the first supersonic AShM in approx 1959 - so it's not as if they were oblivious of the capability threat - hence their development of the Vandal series to counter Russian systems since the 1970's.

A search of this forum will generate my comments about the Kh-31 over the last 18 months. I'm not however going to retype all my comments and resubmit links which were made available all that time ago.
 
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highsea

New Member
ajay_ijn said:
....Actually it is a secret deal so not much is known about it.
Lol. What Gary said.

The US ended up testing 29 KH-31's total. The Navy's requirement was for a target missile that could fly 50 miles at sea level. The KH-31 could only fly 16, and some of them ran out of fuel after only 8. We actually had to modify an F-4 Phantom for remote control as a pilotless launch platform to overcome the range issues.

The US sent a team of engineers from Boeing and MD to Russia to rework the missile, and some improvements were made. Russia wanted the US to order 300 at a time, but we were only willing to buy 50 at a time. Even so, they were a million each, and were not without problems. They are all titanium, require special tools and such to maintain, and are easily succeptible to damage.

What we discovered was the the KH-31 was a POS. It couldn't handle the thick air at sea level. We went back to the Sea Snake, and our new SSST, the Coyote will go in service this year.

The whole program was a failure from the US perspective. Not only did we not use the missile, but we transferred some critical technology to Russia. The Sunburn would not be anywhere close to the missile it is today if we had not been involved with the KH-31.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Ok ok I thought it was initially a secret deal

Back to the topic
I wanted to ask What was the cost of sunburn and what really made Indian Navy to chose Switchblade instead of Sunburn????
Collapse of Soviet union created some problems with aquiring the Sunburn.
 

highsea

New Member
From what I know, the Sunburn export is linked to the Sov class DDG. Russia has said they won't export them separately. Theoretically, they would cost about $500,000 each. The rumors that Iran acquired some from Ukraine have been denied by the Ukranian officials, but who knows.
 
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