German Bundeswehr

swerve

Super Moderator
Getting a little off track from the Bundeswehr...



The problem with the E3's is they are all based off the same aircraft and that aircraft logistics are essentially dead. As dead as a 707 airliner.

So its not just one or two airframes that have high airframe hours, the entire fleet is fast approaching the stage where it will no longer be possible to be flight worthy. The large number of airframes still operational is actually a huge problem in depleting spares and logistics. Due to a lack of spares, items that need replacement come off any are remanufactured and then put back on, which takes time and money.

This has been an issue for a long time, the US was aquiring aircraft for spares since the 90's.

707 based aircraft were the most expensive aircraft for the USAF to operate. The E8/E4 were running around nearly $90m a year! In 2018. The only aircraft that comes close is the B2 bomber.



The E3 is also technically outdated. It is not designed for a modern 21st battlefield with stealth aircraft, low observable missiles, drones, modern jamming and spoofing. E7 has extremely good sensor fusion, and great situational awareness. It can operate in a complex battlespace with peer adversaries.
Yes, E-3 is out of date. But it's a hell of a lot better than nothing & not counting the USAF there are 20 of them operating in Europe, & it isn't the only AEW aircraft operating in NATO or soon-to-be-NATO Europe: there are 4 Turkish E-7, 2 Italian G550 CAEW, & 2 Swedish & 4 Greek Erieye, plus 3 French navy E-2C.

A replacement for E-3 should have been ordered years ago, for the reasons you give, but at least something's being done. Italy's getting more G550 AEW, Sweden's going to replace its current SAAB 340 Erieye with Globaleye, & perhaps increase numbers, & the UK's buying E-7 (converted from secondhand airframes to speed up delivery, in addition to plans to replace E-3 - eventually.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think the likelihood of a kinetic attack on Ramstein would be much lower than a kinetic attack on a joint Australian/US base. The reason being that a kinetic attack on Ramstein would trigger NATOs article 5. Cyber attacks below article 5 threshold would be likely though.
I don't think article 5 deters China at all. China doesn't want to invade NATO, it wants NATO to bend its knee to it. Ultimately, it probably expects NATO to place its security arrangements with China, and kick the US out of NATO.

China isn't going to launch a tank charge through the Fulda gap. They are quite able to make devastating strikes from China without ground forces. China throwing its soft and grey power around is a real thing, and something that would on its own, likely crush some NATO states.

Its clear any action China takes on Taiwan would bring the US in immediately, and likely US allies, which include the UK and Canada and US and Canada are way down on the threat list to China behind things like South Korea and Japan.

Take the US, Canada and the UK out of NATO, and what extra expeditionary capabilities does NATO field that would be able to rock into China's doorstep in a meaningful way. Would they even be able to make it there if China encouraged some other actors to annoy NATO forces outside of NATO territory.

And how happy would NATO nations do that if the the US is loosing 50 fighters a day and 5 destroyers a week, Guam being laid waste and bare taking heavy losses, while Korea, Japan are taking loses in the thousands per day.

This is assuming Russia is just sitting there, doing nothing in Eurasia while the rest of the world breaks out in chaos. NATO may find it strategically more comfortable to only put Russia on its war list.

Yes, E-3 is out of date. But it's a hell of a lot better than nothing & not counting the USAF there are 20 of them operating in Europe, & it isn't the only AEW aircraft operating in NATO or soon-to-be-NATO Europe: there are 4 Turkish E-7, 2 Italian G550 CAEW, & 2 Swedish & 4 Greek Erieye, plus 3 French navy E-2C.

A replacement for E-3 should have been ordered years ago, for the reasons you give, but at least something's being done. Italy's getting more G550 AEW, Sweden's going to replace its current SAAB 340 Erieye with Globaleye, & perhaps increase numbers, & the UK's buying E-7 (converted from secondhand airframes to speed up delivery, in addition to plans to replace E-3 - eventually.
But there is a giant big capability hole.

Currently look like being filled by a non-NATO country located very far away. One that the EU sees as a trade threat greater than Iran or China or Russia.

And yet we are being told to all sign up to NATO. The thing we outside NATO, are propping up.
But I am not sure article 5 mean much to a power that intends to wipe the US out of the pacific, wiping the US off US territories like Guam, and is located in Asia.

Both the US and UK panic buys aren't exactly filling people with confidence. Sweden is literally just joining NATO now, Turkey is half out of NATO, and at high level tension with Greece. Turkey and Greece invested in these capabilities because they knew NATO doesn't prioritise their security needs. Two Italian CAEW which were bought partly for work offset reasons (Aermacchi M-346 sale) its hardly mind blowing AEW capability.

Getting back to Germany, Germany should be looking at making itself a bit more of a complete spectrum force. Those forces/capabilities can sit under NATO command, but be maintained by Germany, and ensured they can be tasked for needs by Germany if required.

NATO AEW capability is a perfect microcosm of issues within NATO.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I don't think article 5 deters China at all. China doesn't want to invade NATO, it wants NATO to bend its knee to it. Ultimately, it probably expects NATO to place its security arrangements with China, and kick the US out of NATO.
It would be a big mistake of China to ignore article 5. Europe is a "slumbering giant" that you just don't want to wake up. Nobody has seen Europe on a war footing since WW2.

Russia clearly underestimated the resolve of NATO (and even the Russians did not attack NATO proper). China must not do an even bigger mistake. However I think the Chinese realize how dangerous it will be, and will therefore not do anything that could trigger article 5.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Bundestag has passed funding for replacing the directional anti-tank mines delivered to Ukraine.

In total 2,600 replacement units for DM22 PARM will be bought for 68 million Euro, to be paid separately from the Ukraine support fund. The contract includes an option for 10,000 further units for an undisclosed price, which would have to be ordered separately from the defence budget.

---

In addition, funding was passed for procurement of new cryptographic/communications gear, with most of the below 292 million to be paid from the 100 Billion Fund.

This includes 690 SvFUA communications sets for 130 million, to equip:
- all Puma IFV
- IRIS-T SLM batteries
- divisional HQ of Division 2025 / 10th Armoured Division
- the GÜZ training center

SvFUA is SOVERON D by Rohde & Schwarz.

Equipping Puma with SvFUA was required by the budget committee when they okayed the Puma S1 upgrade a while ago. The Bundeswehr at the time wanted to make it "optional". Offhand that is also the reason why not "all" the funding comes from the 100 Billion Fund.


It also includes 1350 cryptographic IP telephones, replacing current ISDN-based systems for 70 million Euro. These are apparently used in mobile HQs for communications requiring NATO Secret classification. The units to be bought are explicitly "robust" (i.e. for field use), an "indoor use version" is to be procured separately later.

Part of the package are also 51 new cryptographic radio systems for the directional radio links of Patriot systems for 40.5 million Euro.

The Bundeswehr is also buying 9,058 receiver cards for GPS M-Code from the US government for 51.5 million Euro. These are for upgrading GPS navigational systems onboard vehicles and ships. Delivery is planned for 2025-2028, M-Code itself on the US side is currently planned to reach FOC in February 2025.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The budget committee this week signed off on the largest defence funding package this year :

13.4 billion Euro for HIL GmbH for a "contract change" for the duration of 2024 to 2034. Funding comes out of the general defence budget. HIL is the state-owned company for second/third-level maintenance for armoured vehicles of the Bundeswehr. The "contract change" basically means extending their unlimited contract and assigning them a budget that is twice as high (!) as it has been in the last 6 years. This is to expand capacity and services provided.

---

Also signed off was a 59-million contract chance with Airbus/ADAS for operation of Heron TP. This is to finance a 6-month demonstrator operation project at the 51st Tactical Air Force Wing as well as "establishing cybersecurity for the system" and "modifications to spare parts supply". Heron TP is planned to be used as a general MALE drone for reconnaissance, surveillance and close-air support until introduction of Eurodrone in 2030.

Funnily in their press release for both the above they seem to be trying to hide that 13.4b expenditure by putting much more emphasis (three times as much text) on the 59m expenditure.
 
The Parliament's Budget committee will approve the Acquisition of 50 additional Dingo MRAPs on the 15th of November btw.
The contract includes an Option for 183 additional Dingos.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The budget committee this week signed off on the largest defence funding package this year :

13.4 billion Euro for HIL GmbH for a "contract change" for the duration of 2024 to 2034. Funding comes out of the general defence budget. HIL is the state-owned company for second/third-level maintenance for armoured vehicles of the Bundeswehr. The "contract change" basically means extending their unlimited contract and assigning them a budget that is twice as high (!) as it has been in the last 6 years. This is to expand capacity and services provided.
...
Considering the reports of large numbers of armoured vehicles out of action because of lack of maintenance, doubling spending doesn't seem unreasonable, first to clear the backlog & then put things on a sustainable basis.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The HIL contract change was signed last wednesday.

Plans at HIL are basically to:
  • improve staff technical qualifications
  • increase staff numbers by 35% to 3,500
  • increase number of vehicles HIL is responsible for by 35% to 38,500
  • increase internally handled maintenance work hours by 15% to 1.8 million in order to speed up maintenance on existing systems
  • increase third-party contracted maintenance work hours by 110% (!) to 4 million
  • transform their three central maintenance plants to in the future be focused specifically on wheeled vehicles, tracked vehicles and - the third - a service center / hub for their local workshops at army bases.
IOC is planned for 2027 (and that's already e.g. 25% more staff), FOC for 2031.

I'm not exactly sure where the 10,000 extra "systems and vehicles" for whom HIL is gonna do maintenance are going to come from. Maybe they are planning to have BwFuhrparkService hire HIL as a general contractor for maintenance on their heavier vehicles (BwFpS has 6,000 trucks that they provide to the Bundeswehr) with HIL then just handling contracting out that maintenance to third-party civilian companies or something similar.

It should be noted that during the last government there were plans to fully privatize all three maintenance plants of HIL. Compared to that this now is a really good deal.
 

Atomic Warrior

New Member
I just got done reading this entire thread. Thank you all for your input or commentary. This was all very enlightening. Sorry my comment is not enitrly productive to the topic at hand but wanted to give the creator of this thread a round of applause for having the courage to make this thread & tell all about his personal experiences! Then want to thank everyone for their amazing responses to said individual and his concerns & observations about the condition of the current German military!
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm not exactly sure where the 10,000 extra "systems and vehicles" for whom HIL is gonna do maintenance are going to come from.
P.S. to this: Apparently the 3500 UTF and 4000 WLS trucks (RMMV HX2) shall get their maintenance handled through HIL. Remainder are probably the Caracals for the airborne brigade, with current Wolf vehicles handled inhouse by the Bundeswehr.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Diehl got a contract earlier this month to replace the 100,000 hand grenades Germany delivered to Ukraine. The contract has an option for another 200,000. Selected product is DM51A3, i.e. the current (for the last 20 years) iteration of the DM51 multi-purpose hand grenade the Bundeswehr has been using since the 70s.

The contract was directly handed to Diehl without being tendered out with the official reasoning that Diehl owns the IP for DM51 and has no plans to have another company license-build it. Whether that's all that kosher is something else. The company is subject to a major fine handed out by the EU commission in September last year due to having formed a cartel with competitor RUAG regarding hand grenade sales in Europe since ca 2008.
 
Top