Taiwan Navy News and Developments

Ananda

The Bunker Group

indigenous submarine programme has drawn on expertise and technology from several countries - a breakthrough for diplomatically isolated Taiwan.
first submarine, with a price tag of T$49.36 billion ($1.53 billion), will use a combat system by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and carry U.S.-made Mark 48 heavyweight torpedoes. It will enter sea trials next month before delivery to the navy by the end of 2024
Taiwan really doing the hard way, with consultants from several sources. However this also means the RnD results is own by them. Thus USD 1.5bio for building this first submarine actually reasonable enough.

It is definitely more expensive then building on license from someone else design. Still I do suspect they already put the design bit by bit throughout perhaps a decade more. Refine the design and prepared their yard to work on implementing the design. This is perhaps seems fast if we see the timeline between now and public announcement of the program. However before that I do suspect Taiwanese already done the hard work on refining what they can gather from collections of 'consultants'.
 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
However this also means the RnD results is own by them. Thus USD 1.5bio for building this first submarine actually reasonable enough.
That's a fair point. It's worth remembering that this is the cost of not just manufacturing but also R&D. The following boats would have lower unit costs, not least because issues that arise during construction of lead of class usually generate lessons learnt.

However before that I do suspect Taiwanese already done the hard work on refining what they can gather from collections of 'consultants'.
I forget where I read it, but I saw a quote from someone suggesting that President Tsai was a big part in making the IDS project a reality. Before 2016 I think there was a lot of reluctance to go ahead with it, worrying that a failure would destroy political careers, damage Taiwan's reputation, etc. Some work was done but there seemed to be a belief that it was too big for Taiwan to do. And maybe to be fair, before 2016 it's not clear there was enough international support to make it a success. But either way she gave the necessary political backing to get it off the drawing board.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
That's a fair point. It's worth remembering that this is the cost of not just manufacturing but also R&D. The following boats would have lower unit costs, not least because issues that arise during construction of lead of class usually generate lessons learnt.
And Taiwan has a pretty efficient civilian shipbuilding industry, I think.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I forget where I read it, but I saw a quote from someone suggesting that President Tsai was a big part in making the IDS project a reality. Before 2016 I think there was a lot of reluctance to go ahead with it, worrying that a failure would destroy political careers, damage Taiwan's reputation, etc. Some work was done but there seemed to be a belief that it was too big for Taiwan to do. Any maybe to be fair, before 2016 it's not clear there was enough international support to make it a success. But either way she gave the necessary political backing to get it off the drawing board.
There were certain legislators from KMT that were deadset against the program, if I am not mistaken. It is mostly internal politicking, with DPP being supportive of it, and KMT making this a red herring. With the failure of the American promise of diesel submarines, it should have been a no-brainer much earlier.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Sometimes, their worst enemies have always come from within.

Sometimes, their worst enemies have always come from within.
It's said one reason the US doesn't offer them the F-35 is because of such matters. Their armoured infantry vehicle had the same issues. In fact some components were even made in China, apparantly.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Still I do suspect they already put the design bit by bit throughout perhaps a decade more. Refine the design and prepared their yard to work on implementing the design. This is perhaps seems fast if we see the timeline between now and public announcement of the program. However before that I do suspect Taiwanese already done the hard work on refining what they can gather from collections of 'consultants'.
1. Taiwan’s spies & emissaries have been interested in submarine design & technology for at least the last 25 years but the level of progress is not known.

2. Building the first submarine is a first step. But thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class is as important. As Australia has demonstrated, building the Collins class is easier that building its successor.

3. As Collin Koh wrote:

“Taiwan’s Hai Kun submarine does not represent a panacea to an increasingly precarious security situation amid a growing mainland Chinese military threat. Yet it is absolutely essential for deterrence and for it to deal at least a bloody nose to Beijing if push comes to shove.​

If submarines are to remain a credible tool of deterrence, Taiwan defence planners would already have to start thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class.​

This is a colossal enterprise requiring considerable political and fiscal commitments. Faltering in either, or both, to sustain Taiwan’s submarine programme will constitute a classic case of fail to plan, plan to fail.”​
4. @CovertShores has suggested that Taiwan’s Hai Kun is a refinement of the Dutch Zwaardvis class with an ‘x’ rudder, & having American C2 systems & weapons.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
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CovertShores has suggested that Taiwan’s Hai Kun is a refinement of the Dutch Zwaardvis class with an ‘x’ rudder, & having American C2 systems & weapons.
Yes, my self as amateur also see on comparing the model in 2020 and now after we got picture of Hai Kun. If we see Hai Lung tower, fin positioning and the curve and shape, have shown similarities. Logical thinking from Taiwanese team to base their own design from their previous Sub.

But thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class is as important.
Hopefully the Political competition not discouraged that move. Indonesia by 1990's already work out design with the German using aspects from 209 and 205 for next indigenous sub (as Indonesia also in place to acquire 5 205 ex German Navy). However changing political fortune affect that plan. Submarine is always consider big investment, but also strategic ones. For that politics usually can affluence decisions on next gen development.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
But thinking about the next generation of submarines that would eventually replace the Hai Kun class is as important. As Australia has demonstrated, building the Collins class is easier that building its successor.
You make a good point that these new boats have to be seen as the start, not the end, of Taiwan's indigenous submarines. In particular Taiwan will need to find a way to retain skills after the class is complete. Perhaps a successor class built over a longer period.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Sutton video on his assessment for Taiwan Hai Kun, and why he's quite sure it is base on their Hai Lung/Zwaardfis class. He is also believe elements of Dutch Walrus class also influences. He also make comparisons between Hai Kun and PLAN Type 39B which is still base SSK for PLAN.

In a way it is another assessment that shown Taiwan goes with logical steps on developing their Submarine tech base on what they already known and operate. So logical step by step, as eventough they work with overseas private contractors, they have limitations on direct tech transfer from existing players. Thus they work on the design they're already familiar with.
 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member

Hai Kun has been launched and will start harbour trials, ahead of sea trials planned for later this year. It looks like delivery to the Taiwanese Navy will be in 2025.

Hopefully the successful development of Hai Kun will lead to a budget for successor boats to be approved promptly.
 
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