Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister

[The Watcher]

taiwan would need a lot of subs to head off china blockade of any sort!

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Taiwan must acquire submarines to head off China blockade: minister

TAIPEI: Taiwan must acquire a fleet of submarines to prevent China from mounting a naval blockade of the island in the event of a war, Defense Minister Lee Jye was quoted by a newspaper as saying.

Lee told parliament China "would require only 13 submarines to fully blockade Taiwan," one of the military options tipped to be used by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) against the island, the China Times said.

The PLA navy now operates a fleet of 86 submarines, 40 of them in the "new generation" category, Lee said.

In contrast, Taiwan navy's submarine fleet consists of two 50-year-old Guppy-class diesel-electric boats, both in very poor condition, and two Dutch-built Hai-Lung-class boats commissioned in 1987/88.

But Lee said Taiwan would be able to defend its waters if it went ahead with the purchase of eight submarines from the the United States.

The remarks come as Taiwan debates whether to spend 18 billion US dollars on eight conventional submarines, as well as 12 P-3C submarine-hunting aircraft and six PAC-3 missile systems.

Taiwan's cabinet on June 2 approved the special budget to buy weaponry from the United States. It needs final approval by parliament.

Critics of the deal warn the hefty military spending would further provoke China. Others say the government would be forced to incur more debts or cut social welfare and education budgets.

US President George W. Bush approved the submarine sale in April 2001 as part of Washington's most comprehensive arms package to the island since 1992.

Tensions between Taiwan and China have been growing following the re-election as president of Chen Shui-bian, from the pro-independence Democratic Progressive Party.

Source

 

[armage]

How much would the eight subs cost?
18 billion sounds like a ripe off................

 

[Aussie Digger]

The 18 Billion was for the P-3C's and the PAC-3 Patriot systems as well as the subs. Australian spent $6 Billion manufacturing it's current fleet of 6 Collins class Submarine's. That was back in the late 80's, early 90's. A new fleet of 8 subs, could easily cost $10-12 Billion with the PAC-3 Patriots and P-3C's making up the rest...

 

[turin]

The 18 Billion was for the P-3C's and the PAC-3 Patriot systems as well as the subs. Australian spent $6 Billion manufacturing it's current fleet of 6 Collins class Submarine's. That was back in the late 80's, early 90's. A new fleet of 8 subs, could easily cost $10-12 Billion with the PAC-3 Patriots and P-3C's making up the rest...

If the price is thats high, it will be a political one but not the real price of the vessels. We're talking about SSK here and a unit cost of 1 bn or more is simply ludicrous. Collins class surely is no good example since the price the Aussies have payed here was far beyond good and evil.

Common prices for SSK range between 300 (Scorpene) and 500 ( Type 212A) million Euro (do the math for $). Of course since nothing is known yet about the exact details of the kind of SSK Taiwan is receiving, its difficult to name a price. But anything beyond 800 million to 1 bn $ per unit would be hilarious. Even that price is extremely high. Of course under the circumstances Taiwan may have to pay whatever price is offered in order to get some sub at all... :roll

 

[P.A.F]

lets just get one thing straight. no matter what tiawan buys china would still crush, conqeur it and gain it back.

 

[berry580]

"The PLA navy now operates a fleet of 86 submarines, 40 of them in the "new generation" category, Lee said. "

What's their definition of "new generation"?
The submarines are newly build with obselete technologies and it'll be classified as "new generation"?
In that case, the PLAN should be the world's most formidable navy in the world, as it has commissioned so much more newly built ships in recent years compared to other navies, hence the PLAN is the most advanced navy in the world? LOL

 

[Aegis]

The remarks come as Taiwan debates whether to spend 18 billion US dollars on eight conventional submarines, as well as 12 P-3C submarine-hunting aircraft and six PAC-3 missile systems.


Source

I think the P-3C is not v effective!

It cannot even detect a 50's chinese sub,talking abt intercepting 80-90's tecnology sub? Read below!

http://www.nti.org/db/china/conchr.htm

 

[turin]

I think the P-3C is not v effective!

It cannot even detect a 50's chinese sub,talking abt intercepting 80-90's tecnology sub? Read below!

http://www.nti.org/db/china/conchr.htm

The worth of that information is debatable since it raises certain questions. How intensive is japanese peacetime surveillance? Was a P-3C operating in the area during the time the chinese sub was approaching? Also P-3C as all MPA rely on various tools to detect enemy subs, the most efficient being sonobuoys, which obviosiously were not used here. If the Orion was not around at the right time, things such as MAD are useless as well.

It is questionable to compare a probably well timed political game by China with the circumstances under which taiwanese P-3C would operate in the situation of a chinese invasion. To say, the P-3C is not effective only because of that incident, is...well debatable at the very least.

 

[Aegis]

I think the P-3C is not v effective!

It cannot even detect a 50's chinese sub,talking abt intercepting 80-90's tecnology sub? Read below!

http://www.nti.org/db/china/conchr.htm

The worth of that information is debatable since it raises certain questions. How intensive is japanese peacetime surveillance? Was a P-3C operating in the area during the time the chinese sub was approaching? Also P-3C as all MPA rely on various tools to detect enemy subs, the most efficient being sonobuoys, which obviosiously were not used here. If the Orion was not around at the right time, things such as MAD are useless as well.

It is questionable to compare a probably well timed political game by China with the circumstances under which taiwanese P-3C would operate in the situation of a chinese invasion. To say, the P-3C is not effective only because of that incident, is...well debatable at the very least.

If I not wrong ,during the South and North Korea infiltrator crisis in 1997.North Korea sent small sub to plant spies into south Korea! The North Korea sub route taken that time just past right through the exercise area which was conducted by South korea and US warship for ASW.They did not detect the sub.It was only engine failure that prevent the sub from returning to North after it hit the shore! Consider the standard of North Korea submarine fleet.I wonder how US and Taiwan is going to handle PLAN sub!

 

[turin]

If I not wrong ,during the South and North Korea infiltrator crisis in 1997.North Korea sent small sub to plant spies into south Korea! The North Korea sub route taken that time just past right through the exercise area which was conducted by South korea and US warship for ASW.They did not detect the sub.It was only engine failure that prevent the sub from returning to North after it hit the shore! Consider the standard of North Korea submarine fleet.I wonder how US and Taiwan is going to handle PLAN sub!

Even if that sub passed through the area of operations, it makes no really valid argument for the chinese SSK/SSN to pass such a control with the same chance of not being detected. You see, there is a VERY big difference between the things NK is using as mini subs and the full sized ordinary sub ANY country may use for ordinary purposes.
Of course the NK mini subs are far away from being easily detectable. They are build for infiltration and although they are rather simple and not very reliable constructions (many sunk simply because of internal problems and I am close to say, we Germans or the Italians build better ones during WW2), they still got the advantage of being very small and having a very compact propulsion system. This simple physical facts alone make it difficult to detect them.
However its something completely different with a more "normal sized" sub.

 

[Aegis]

If I not wrong ,during the South and North Korea infiltrator crisis in 1997.North Korea sent small sub to plant spies into south Korea! The North Korea sub route taken that time just past right through the exercise area which was conducted by South korea and US warship for ASW.They did not detect the sub.It was only engine failure that prevent the sub from returning to North after it hit the shore! Consider the standard of North Korea submarine fleet.I wonder how US and Taiwan is going to handle PLAN sub!

Even if that sub passed through the area of operations, it makes no really valid argument for the chinese SSK/SSN to pass such a control with the same chance of not being detected. You see, there is a VERY big difference between the things NK is using as mini subs and the full sized ordinary sub ANY country may use for ordinary purposes.
Of course the NK mini subs are far away from being easily detectable. They are build for infiltration and although they are rather simple and not very reliable constructions (many sunk simply because of internal problems and I am close to say, we Germans or the Italians build better ones during WW2), they still got the advantage of being very small and having a very compact propulsion system. This simple physical facts alone make it difficult to detect them.
However its something completely different with a more "normal sized" sub.

I wonder how many small subs does the PLAN have? Then the American and Taiwan needs to worry abt something.Maybe the PLAN have a number of sucide small sub ready for the American!

 

[doggychow14]

by new subs i think he means kilo.yuan, song, 093, and wat ever china has up its sleaves

 

[turin]

I wonder how many small subs does the PLAN have? Then the American and Taiwan needs to worry abt something.Maybe the PLAN have a number of sucide small sub ready for the American!

I doubt wether such subs are of any use against a force fielded by the US or someone else. You see, the single purpose of these subs, as I already mentioned before, is infiltration. Simply said they shall bring some troops/agents/whatever on dry land before they are shot at. They are not intended to be used in antiship operations (I guess most of them even lack any weaponry).

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think the P-3C is not v effective!

It cannot even detect a 50's chinese sub,talking abt intercepting 80-90's tecnology sub? Read below!

Another unfortunate newsarticle that does not reflect actual events (as the newspaper would have no idea)

eg, Taiwan has technology in place that can alert her to a submarine presence without sending out physical assets. I would suspect that Japan has similar capability around areas of national interest.

Just because a nation doesn't talk about capability, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

eg, the capability to detect PLAN subs egressing from the straits has been around for years - and yet you will not see any references on the internet (heaven forbid!) on the internet.

As for a P3C not being effective or able to detect subs? ROFLMAO

You guys really need to pause before getting excited at newspaper articles.

 

[mysterious]

I just heard from one of my guys that one of the leading US submarines has such high-tech gadgetory on board that if its in the correct proximity of a foe's sub; the Americans can actually hear the conversations of the foe crew word to word. Ouch!

 

[gf0012-aust]

I just heard from one of my guys that one of the leading US submarines has such high-tech gadgetory on board that if its in the correct proximity of a foe's sub; the Americans can actually hear the conversations of the foe crew word to word. Ouch!

One of the persistent mistakes made by some people is the assumption that all information on every technology will be mentioned in the press or can be found on the internet - that is patently untrue. The USN for example does not confirm or deny technology capabilities.

What I am prepared to say is that on the overview made about the new Virginia Class subs at the last Conference on Sub Warfare I attended (last week), there were technologies discussed that have never been mentioned in public. When people say that "x" country or "y" country will surpass or beat current US subs, they really show that they have no idea about what they are talking about.

I came out of those sessions clearly understanding that the US subs are the pre-eminent subs in the world for a number of very good reasons.

 

[mysterious]

So, was your post in line (or helping) with my post or the other way round? :smokingc:

 

[gf0012-aust]

So, was your post in line (or helping) with my post or the other way round? :smokingc:

It was a complimentary comment.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

One of the persistent mistakes made by some people is the assumption that all information on every technology will be mentioned in the press or can be found on the internet - that is patently untrue. The USN for example does not confirm or deny technology capabilities.

What I am prepared to say is that on the overview made about the new Virginia Class subs at the last Conference on Sub Warfare I attended (last week), there were technologies discussed that have never been mentioned in public. When people say that "x" country or "y" country will surpass or beat current US subs, they really show that they have no idea about what they are talking about.

I came out of those sessions clearly understanding that the US subs are the pre-eminent subs in the world for a number of very good reasons.

When you mention the part where nobody at current times have the technology to surpass Virginia Class, some might argue the Russian Severodvinsk Class is on par with, if not better, than Virginia Class. But I hardly have any belief in that claim. Severodvinsk class is a true "Paper Submarine", scheduled to enter service in 1998 but is nowhere near the point of being commissioned. Russian sub's noise level is also higher than their American counter part. The only advantage Russian sub have over americans is their double hull design which increase the survivability of the boat, but then again, why need double hull when your enemy can't detect you?

 

[gf0012-aust]

When you mention the part where nobody at current times have the technology to surpass Virginia Class, some might argue the Russian Severodvinsk Class is on par with, if not better, than Virginia Class. But I hardly have any belief in that claim.

I can't go into details, but that is clearly unequivocably NOT the case. I've seen the numbers on Russian and other platforms. It's a no horse race. In addition the Russians don't have the sea hours, don't have the same level of acoustic signature management and certainly do not have hi speed acoustic transmission footprint. They at not in the same league by a golden mile.

Severodvinsk class is a true "Paper Submarine", scheduled to enter service in 1998 but is nowhere near the point of being commissioned.

The Virginias were completely designed on computer - no draftings were done.

Russian sub's noise level is also higher than their American counter part.

Substantially so. and Russias Kilos are substantially quieter than Indias or Chinas. The export models are NOT the same in quality or systems. The Kilos in russian service are quieter than any of their own nukes.

The only advantage Russian sub have over americans is their double hull design which increase the survivability of the boat, but then again, why need double hull when your enemy can't detect you?

The other issue is the type of casing. It's not only an issue of double rupture protection - there are other reasons as to why they were designed with such hulls. Those hulls are not impervious to some of the British or USN torpedoes or other ASW response systems. The clear advantage of a double hull is more apparent against a smaller sub firing an 18" torpedo. The new generation 21" torpedoes are not going to be ineffective against an Akula, Typhoon etc... with HS skins.

Trust me, the shift in force balance with the Virginias is a quantum leap ahead of anything that is in existence and what is "known" to being built by other navies.

The new Virginias have an acoustic footprint that is quieter at 25 knots than a modified 688 at less than 2 knots.