Saudi's show interest to purchase al-khalid and Al-Saad

[adsH]

Oh the eternal optimism of the Pakistanis over their al khalid tank, Yes Saudi Arabia sent a delagation to view the Pak Al Khalid, this was in huge part because of the Funding the Saudis provided, Saudi arabia basicaly wanted to see where their money went, Saudi Arabia should have no plans of addopting a 4th tank into its arsenal keep in mind

Saudi defense planning revolving around 3 brigades/regiments each one equipped with simmilar albiet different equipment, one is all french amx-30/amx-10 which fires 105mm low power nato and 20mmx119 the second is american with m60/m113 and fires 105mm nato full power (same round heat) and 12.7mm and 20mm x 119 and then lastly the m1/m2 105mm (nato full) and 25mm bushmaster cannon. so if you were the saudis why would you suddenly complicate things by addopting a completely alien tank and a completely unfamilliar and inferior ammunition and logistics. you cannot compare 125mm old soviet to even 105mm nato and the 12.7mm dhskm/type 67/83 guns of the saad arent compatible with the 12.7mm nato heavy

Also IRAN has no interest whatso ever in addopting the al khalied, the al khalied is roughly comparable to the t-72 iran builds and improves upon domesticly! its like saying India is Interested in Chinese f-7 fighters, while India builds Mig-21's

Mr libyan check your specs and then come back and talk about what you think is old tech This tank is by no standards a T72 why would Ukraine and Pakistan co develop a platform spend money on R&D when they could just buy the T72 much cheaper you don't make any sense. the Saudi have contracted the Pak army to maintain and update all there ARmy vehicles so a better part of the logistical team is already working there in saudi. the saudi never funded the Alkhalid programe. and the Iranians relations with pakistan are not good so they would rather buy the T90 from russia which is an approximate equal. i think the Engines are now being made by HIT. lastly MR Libyan please read up one of the threads on Al-khalid its somewhere here. all these countries would not be that interested if the Pakistani tank was load of rubbish or old soviet tech. this acquisition by PakARMY provoked India to purchase T90 form russia..!!! the Saudi will buy these but not now they have a 200 billion dollar deficit that needs to be worked up before they can spend more on equipment.



And Does India Build Mig21 !!!!!!! ???? they are now goign to build the Su 30 MKI and LCA in teh future.

 

[gf0012-aust]

the Saudi have contracted the Pak army to maintain and update all there ARmy vehicles

adSh, have you got some links on this? I thought it was for some platform types - but not all armoured platform types.

 

[adsH]

the Saudi have contracted the Pak army to maintain and update all there ARmy vehicles

adSh, have you got some links on this? I thought it was for some platform types - but not all armoured platform types.

i think it was for Land rovers and other sort of older tanks but i don't think it was abrahms, Pakistan manufactures Land Rovers and the contract was to Update and maintain most of there Army vehicles i can't find the Link any more i tried searching for it all morning it was spose to be some where can't find it now !!
i think the contract was quiet comprehensive as all the Western contracter had or were leaving and the saudi don't have experience in that feild they were looking to get some Pak army engineers to maintain there vehicles !


And Gf the Engine for the the Al -khalids were roughly bought for about 250 K dollars each according to PakistaniDefense site. those engines are now being manufactured At HIT as Ukraine after comming under pressure form India and Russia stoped doing business With Pakistan. teh contract was to supply 315 engines the contract was woth about 125 million dollars and pakistan already had 20 of the tanks built these were used in the conflict with india last time i recall so it might have been battle tested!!!

 

[Libyan]

I see from your comments your very upset lets compare for a momment.


You are the defense chief/prince of saudi arabia, you have some 20 year old american tanks (m60) and some 30 year old French tanks (amx30) now the advantages of holding these are you allready have spares and the logistical support lines for these two tanks do you

A. look to france and the united states to give you another tank or upgrade package where you can use existing spares and lines of logistics (ammo fuel filters,tracks, engines etc) as well as existing training aides


B. adopt a COMPLETELY alien tank into your tank forces one which will use vastly different technology,supply chain, and ammunition, we are talking about adding another calibre of main gun , 105mm french,105mm nato,120mm nato and now 125mm sino/soviet, as well as complications of engine where you must go to a THIRD nation to recieve spares for your engines. and of course you will have to train crews to work on this tank and engine also.


Also t-90 is an extension of the T-72, there is much in common with the two designs, The al khalied is not exactly the best armored, nor is it the best armed, 125mm seperate charge and auto loader isnt my first choice in calibre, maybe thats why the Hinds are choosing 120mm l55? in their arjun
The only superiorities the al khalied has over an upgraded t-72 is the power plant and in matinence, al khalied uses inferior chinese armors and an inferior chinese 125mm copy of the russian/soviet 125mm gun.

 

[joker]

Libyan no offence mate but you obviously lack any credible knowledge of the Al Khalid to come out with statement like its comparable to the T72!!

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/index.html

Has it ever occured to you that the Saudis may be looking at replacing their tank fleet in line with the GCC defence strategy and the industrial defence agreement with Pakistan and Egypt? The Saudis were evaluating the Leclerc a few yrs ago but then rejected it because the French werent willing to set up an assembly line in KSA. Something which in line with the common defence industrial agreement between the trio will cater for in the case for the AK.

Iran did not reject the AK DEPO stopped marketing it after ISlamabad refused to grant export license's after certain events.

Of course AK is not the best armored because in tank design you have to make a compromise on either mobility or armor. You cant have it both ways and in a desert environment where mobility coupled with a hell of a punch is key to surviving and winning then obviously you're going to go for mobility. Otherwise your going to end up like the Iraqi army did after GWI and GW II

Another thing KSA never supplied any funding whatsoever for the AK programme. Pls provide evidence of the above statement or is this another Pakistan third world so cant afford anything superiority statements you lot keep on spouting! A fat lot of good you lot did with all that oil you supposedly have :roll

 

[adsH]

Libyan no offence mate but you obviously lack any credible knowledge of the Al Khalid to come out with statement like its comparable to the T72!!

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/index.html

Has it ever occured to you that the Saudis may be looking at replacing their tank fleet in line with the GCC defence strategy and the industrial defence agreement with Pakistan and Egypt? The Saudis were evaluating the Leclerc a few yrs ago but then rejected it because the French werent willing to set up an assembly line in KSA. Something which in line with the common defence industrial agreement between the trio will cater for in the case for the AK.

Iran did not reject the AK DEPO stopped marketing it after ISlamabad refused to grant export license's after certain events.

Of course AK is not the best armored because in tank design you have to make a compromise on either mobility or armor. You cant have it both ways and in a desert environment where mobility coupled with a hell of a punch is key to surviving and winning then obviously you're going to go for mobility. Otherwise your going to end up like the Iraqi army did after GWI and GW II

Another thing KSA never supplied any funding whatsoever for the AK programme. Pls provide evidence of the above statement or is this another Pakistan third world so cant afford anything superiority statements you lot keep on spouting! A fat lot of good you lot did with all that oil you supposedly have :roll

[Mod edit: Edited.] look at soldier and indianGuy those people are commendable, they talk straight with there believes and there talks have integratory !!!

 

[ipfreak]

Is the amount in this contract just for the engines, or does is also include other things e.g. servicing, repair, training of personnel, development etc. Unless you know this, you can't really say with any certainty that the engines cost $500k per unit. At best, it would be an upper bound.

well, someone here is using his brain ...

 

[Libyan]

I see in my absence no one has anything articulate to say,

I am a Libyan Arab of the Sadda family/tribe of barka/ajedabiyah.

In Comparisons between the t-72 and the Al Khalid the al khalid uses the same GUN, and the same basic design, The al khalid uses a different sights and fire control system and a new and dare I say it better engine?

In terms of Armor I believe the al khalids armor is inferior to the russian armors and we are not just discussing weight I am talking steel and laminate vs steel,honeycomb,epoxy silica which gives the t-72 the same overall armor strength against kinetic energy weapons but a 1.5-3 times armor strength against chemical (heat) weapons.


About Egypt I havent heard anything since the mid 1980s about the setting up of an industry to support french weapons Egypt will not be fielding the leclerk tank and I believe it would be a severe mistake for saudi arabia to do also



About Iraq. the Iraqis had a large slow military with poor communicational skills I fail to see how you can say they were slow because of the heavy armor.


However I have been working on several ideas with friends in pakistan and saudi arabia where we brainstorm ideas in militaria It would be good to have Egypt Saudi Arabia and Pakistan work together and to set up commonality of equipment between the three muslim nations



the al khalid is less labor intensive and more productive for a non developed nation than the m1a1 that egypt and saudi arabia field



the al khalid could benefit from advanced armors and perhaps even the replacement of the 125mm gun with a conventional 120mm gun and one piece ammunition


If one realises the tremendous potential of an upgraded al khalied one must also see the severe need for a family of vehicles based of the al khalid platform such a move would decrease the basic cost per unit of tank as well as lower the overall cost of spares,and of training as well as streamlining completely the army, not to mention allowing your combat engineers,repair,bridging and mechanized infantry the highest degree of protection and of speed.


In closing on my three nation industrial/military plan I also came up with some other ideas


Egypt which produces the m88rcv ( a variant of the m60 tank) could create on the basis of the m60 a heavier 70 ton tank. Egypt has about 2130 m60s, pakistan has 230, and saudi arabia around 530.

the replacement of 100,115mm 105mm tank guns with 120mm (in egypt) and in pakistan the replacement of 100,and 105mm with 125mm in the al zarrar upgrade has left both nations with hundreds if not thousands of 105mm tank guns which could easily be fitted to the d-30 artillery chassis and could provide infantry with an organic anti tank and support fire platform this could be married very cheaply with a minimum of man hours of labor


The M-113 platform that all three nations use should be only slightly modified and should serve in rapid reaction brigade level formations , The M113 is capible in its basic form of being airdropped and swim capable, It would be nice if It was able to me made rpg/mine proofed a bit and not have its gunner exposed with a turret



If such military co-operation was possible egypt would have to begin replacing its akm/msri rifles with the steyr aug, as well as in the mean time addopting pakistani and saudi arabian g3 rifles

 

[adsH]

Introduction


Al-Khalid is one of the newest and one of the most deadliest tanks in the world,  its a result of the advanced technology available in the world today. It meets severe desert conditions, with high performance. It represents the ideal integration of firepower, mobility and protection. This tank is created In Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) Pakistan. Pilot production is underway since November 2000.


Al-Khaild Tanks Unique Abilities


 Al-Khalid is capable of targeting the enemy in the dark of night. It is the only tank that has the ability to auto-track the enemy's tanks. Only French tanks have this capability. It is also as powerful as the German tank Leopard in terms of movement. The Al-Khalid tank's performance is much better than the Russian T-90-S tank, since its designed extreme temperatures.


Features &  Fire Power


Al-Khalid has been designed with a 125mm (48 caliber) smooth bore, auto-frettaged and chrome plated gun which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and missiles. It is equipped with muzzle reference system, and bi-axis stabilization. Elevation and azimuth control is achieved by electro-hydraulic power drives. The tank is also equipped with a 7.62 mm-coaxial MG, 12.7mm externally mounted MG that can be fired with the hatch closed and grenade launchers.
The gunner is provided with a dual magnification day sight and the commander with a panoramic Hunter Killer sight for all around independent surveillance. Both sights are bi-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range finders.


Multi-Target Engagement Abilities 


The commander has the ability of acquiring a target independently while the gunner is engaging a previously selected one.


Rate Of Fire 


The automatic ammunition handling system, with 24 round ready-to-fire magazine further supplements the Hunter-Killer capability of the tank which can load at a rate of 8 rounds a minute. The presence of automatic target tracking system enables the tank to achieve a very high first round hit probability even while firing on a moving target while moving itself.
Night Vision
Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual magnification thermal imaging sight. The powerful fire control system computer processes all the firing information, which includes inputs from its ten sensors and is integrated to both sights.
Fire Control
The ballistic computation time is less than one second. For accurate fire control, third generation gating facility has been provided. The result of such a modern fire control system is, routine first round hits on standard (8 ft x 8 ft) targets at ranges in excess of 2000 meters.
The tank with its 125mm gun has a remarkably stable platform, which is provided by a combination of soft recoil and an excellent suspension.


Wrapped around the fire control system are the ergonomic crew positions and controls. The tank commander, gunner and driver can virtually reach all their controls with little movement.
Engine
A 1200 horsepower super charged, diesel engine and semi-automatic transmission, provides mobility. An under Armour auxiliary power supply unit provides a significant reduction in fuel consumption during 'Silent Watch' and maintenance operations, as auxiliary functions can be performed without main engine power. The highly reliable suspension consists of torsion bars, hydraulic dampers and buffers that afford a high level of comfort for its crew.
Combat Weight & Speed
Besides a low silhouette, it is considerably smaller as compared to other modern tanks. Its maximum weight of 46 tons provides a double advantage; it is strategically easily deployed and is more agile. Its power to weight ratio, in excess of 26 HP/ton, gives the vehicle a maximum speed of around 70 km/h, acceleration from 0~ 30 km/h in less than 10 seconds.


Its low mean maximum pressure and the excellent ride given by its suspension make Al-Khalid an ideal vehicle to fight in any theatre of operation.
Armour & Protection
Al-Khalid has been designed to provide maximum protection and efficiency for its 3 men crew. Protection is afforded by use of modular composite Armour and explosive reactive Armour. Al-Khalid also offers enhanced protection through NBC, an effective Thermal Smoke Generation, Automatic Fire Extinguishing and Explosion Suppression Systems.
Limited Under Water Capabilities
The submerging system allows it to operate 5 meters under water. Navigation is assisted by the use of Global Positioning and Inertial Navigation Systems.


Al-Khalid & Arjun Tank


Al-Khalid is far more modern than India's Arjun, which took 25 years to be developed and is still not completed. Pakistan already has an edge over India in an armed conflict, but after the addition of Al-Khalid, Pakistan would be credible in a land war.

//I changed the Word Invincible used by pak def to Credible.

Could you linch off this Article found at Pakistani Defense i consider it credible
I am not a tank man so read up on this!!!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Iraqis had a large slow military with poor communicational skills

In what sense are you talking about?

Iraq actually had an extensive fibre optic network in place connecting the majority of its ADS sites. It was designed and installed by the Germans.

The air defence network structure was considered to be the next most intensively designed after Serbia.

All of those facilities were either compromised by satellite based warfare systems or physically compromised by special forces prior to the start of the "push".

Are you referring to the style of communications or the physical communications at the armour level?

During the Iraq-Iran war the thing that the Iranian tankers witnessed was that Iraqi physical tank communications was quite good, but the doctrine was quite bad. They found that their Chieftains and Centurions, even though outgunned in some instances used better tactics and were able to hold off much larger forces. The Iraqis were using Russian/Chinese armour doctrine and that was apparently not as capable as the Iranians - who AFAIK had an armoured doctrine that was british based.

Can you give a bit of clarity on what "communications" you're referring to??

 

[adsH]

Iraqis had a large slow military with poor communicational skills

In what sense are you talking about?

Iraq actually had an extensive fibre optic network in place connecting the majority of its ADS sites. It was designed and installed by the Germans.

The air defence network structure was considered to be the next most intensively designed after Serbia.

All of those facilities were either compromised by satellite based warfare systems or physically compromised by special forces prior to the start of the "push".

Are you referring to the style of communications or the physical communications at the armour level?

During the Iraq-Iran war the thing that the Iranian tankers witnessed was that Iraqi physical tank communications was quite good, but the doctrine was quite bad. They found that their Chieftains and Centurions, even though outgunned in some instances used better tactics and were able to hold off much larger forces. The Iraqis were using Russian/Chinese armour doctrine and that was apparently not as capable as the Iranians - who AFAIK had an armoured doctrine that was british based.

Can you give a bit of clarity on what "communications" you're referring to??

Communication skill!? explanation i can come up with would be the ability to communicate in proper communication Protocols but i would think they had triang for that and certainly they could all at-least speak they'r native language!!

 

[Libyan]

What I meant by the Iraqi communicational skills were poor,

Once the Ground war began Iraqi forces were allready unable to relay to a higher level formation that their unit was in combat, Iraqi forces were forced to communicate via ground runners, and commanders were incredibly watching al jazeera and cnn and bbc world to figure out what was going on.


In the absence of Orders Iraqi military leaders were unable to act with the independence needed,

an example of this is when a division of the republican guard was denied entry into baghdad by the special state security apparatus.

Further complication was the selection of "civilian" Govergnors within the baath party being placed in charge of theatres

Once Contact with a superiorly armed and moble force such as the us is made immediately units must advance and close the gap between the area they can engage vs what your engagement distance is, as well as getting close to neutrilize his support by fire,

also reinforcements must speedily arrive, if there are to be no reinforcement a breaking of contact must happen where your forces are adeptly removed, a rear guard is formed which slowly tacticaly withdraws unless one is prepared to see your forces break in a rout.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The principle reason why their communications was so poor was that the US "killed" it in the opening stages.

I seem to recall that apart from some of the issues you mention, the Iraqis were frantically trying to communicate with mobile/cell/handy phones - which of course the US was able to monitor.

Apart from poor human management issues, they also failed to have a redundancy plan in place.

 

[adsH]

The principle reason why their communications was so poor was that the US "killed" it in the opening stages.

I seem to recall that apart from some of the issues you mention, the Iraqis were frantically trying to communicate with mobile/cell/handy phones - which of course the US was able to monitor.

Apart from poor human management issues, they also failed to have a redundancy plan in place.

LOL they were literalyy decapitated !! EM missiles hitting there Sam/com sites there Fibre Optic communication system was obsolete and the US probably new about it form the German inteligence!! an i bet the Network was killed in the Gulf War one.

 

[Libyan]

Oh they did have redundancy, after all tv and electricity were on in baghdad for most of the war, even 400 sorties did not stop the Iraqi information minister. What the Iraqis thought would happen never did, the americans bypassed the areas where the iraqi defense was planned, yet again showing the world static defenses are a thing of the past!