S.Korea, Indonesia to develop 4.5 gen fighter aircraft KFX

Ananda

Well-Known Member
According to other news, who has a complete report, the radar is better and more advance than the latest F 16 radar.
That such tall claim @Ahmad to say this still 'unoperational' radar is better and more advance than AN/APG 83, which already operational and already has proven record. Just remind you on the rules on this forum for not claiming anything based on reports that still can't prove indistinctly.
Are the report has all Technical comparison between this radar vs AN/APG 83 ?

If so, why don't you put the report so others in this forum including the mods can see if this claim has base or not.
There's reasons why there's rule in this forum not to put 'vs' comparison unless can be supported by strong technical data from reputable source.

Furthermore, with the latest offer from Sukhoi to let Indonesia use Westernern avionics on Su 35, the probability to acquire Su 35 is getting bigger.
You seems part of people in local forums that still think the problem on Su-35 procurement is CAATSA only. In fact the MinDef it self already put statement that reasons to do reassessment for Fighters procurement program is; cost benefits factor, benefits to local industry, logistical-integration, and Geopolitical. Thus CAATSA only just one of the factor.

What Russian has involved local industry on any of procurement from them ? LM already stated their willingness to work with DI on MRO including total upgrade of previous generation F-16 (which they already shown). Airbus already offered give DI license manufacturing even access to Avionics and Software development, is Russia already offer that ?

Airbus is long term partner to DI and their Tech Transfer commitment already proven. While For Russia "?" Still big question.

OPSSG already shown the problem with MKI where the Russian still did not want to provide source code for India to fully integrated MKI system to the systems that India build. This is India that already Russia most valuable Defense trading partner. Malaysian MKM already combine Western avionics with Russian system, and that continue provide integration problem for them. Are we still want to follow MKI and MKM example after that ?

It's your right to continue upholding your own believe. However in this forum if you want to put your own believe, then better with reasoning that can be supported with proven record.

Like I said in Indonesian AF thread, for me I'm still neutral with Su-35, as long as Russian give access to Indonesia to fully integrated them with other systems in Indonesian Armed Forces. MinDef and TNI already stated in media that capabilities to fully integration of all their assets on one network is their future priority. However considering what example with MKI and MKM, I highly doubt that Russia will ever give Indonesia to fully access their system with Indonesian mostly Western made other systems..

As for KFX, well Airbus for example already put their offer for access on their system if Indonesia choose Eurofighter. Does KAI also give DI access to their avionics and systems ?
So far DI involvement in this KFX program are only in the parts of Airframes. Which is understandable since DI only support 20%.
Thus if some other suppliers willing to give DI similar deal that SAAB give Embrear, well it could be more valuable than current KFX deal.

SAAB offer complete line manufacturing for Gripen E with Embrear, including Embrear access for system Integration. If this is also what Airbus offer (for example) with DI, then it could be more valuable than KFX participation. After all with only 20% participation and Junior Partner status, DI participation in KFX will not much different than license production as main IP and Marketing rights will be in the hand of KAI.

Again as I have said before, KFX is and always will be ROK project. This IFX will never be Indonesian project as DI only as part of production chain, just like Italy, Japan or other International Partners in JSF.

I'm not saying Indonesia will definitely be out of KFX (since this's highly political decision), but also don't say that KFX is the 'only' path for DI/Indonesia to get involvement or gain experience in modern Fighter manufacturing. There're several other path than KFX to give DI/Indonesia experience and involvement on that.

That's Eurofighter offer in 2015 can be an example. They offer not only build final assembly line in DI (as KFX offer), and also give DI further improvement capabilities with Indonesian build Eurofighter (thus essentially give DI access to the Eurofighter system).
It's still broad offering not in detail, but I believe it's part of MinDef assessment on potential path they will choose in the end.

If you say it's not give DI abilities to do R&D, well is current KFX did ? Current KFX program let DI engineers to include in development program under KAI. Thus all R&D is basically KAI program and DI only allowed to participate on some of them under their supervision and scope dictate by KAI.
Not much different then with DI participate with Eurofighter, but give permission by Airbus to study and developed the systems.

Again participation with KFX is not the only path for DI to gain knowledge and experience on Modern Fighter development.
If this administration decided to step out from KFX but they're then not doing any replacement project for DI on Tech Transfer, then you can justify saying Indonesian administration do not care on developing Military Aerospace tech.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
According to other news, who has a complete report, the radar is better and more advance than the latest F 16 radar. If I am not mistaken F 16 block 70 also has AESA radar. So this is why I prefer Indonesia wait the acquisition of new fighter until KFX/IFX reach mass production scale inshaAllah in 2026 as plan. While acquiring Su 35 may be still a good choice considering its range and the ability to load many bombs.
With Elta involved it will be a good radar. They're no slouches in that area.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
That such tall claim @Ahmad to say this still 'unoperational' radar is better and more advance than AN/APG 83, which already operational and already has proven record. Just remind you on the rules on this forum for not claiming anything based on reports that still can't prove indistinctly.
Are the report has all Technical comparison between this radar vs AN/APG 83 ?

If so, why don't you put the report so others in this forum including the mods can see if this claim has base or not.
There's reasons why there's rule in this forum not to put 'vs' comparison unless can be supported by strong technical data from reputable source.
There is news that say the radar is expected to perform better than latest F16 radar. The news also put ADD Korea FB page, and from what I can get by the way they write the news, the writing look like a translation of that ADD Korea official FB page statement about their AESA.

Here is the news:


Here is the ADD korea FB page:


1596888774117.png

For your information, the radar has been tested by Elta, Israel. This is what the contribution of Elta, which is to test the radar.

I will respond to your other points later inshaAllah, step by step.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
"The new radar is expected to perform better than a fire control radar of the recent version of the F-16 fighter jets."
Recent version...AN/APG-68(V)2....(V)9?
AN/APG-80? -83?

Such claims you hear often from companies, governments, journalists, fanboys, observers. Sometimes these claims are true, but often not.
KAI and Elta do both not have access to the -80 and 83, so it can be just standard marketing statements.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Yes, this Hanwha-Elta collaboration is already good progress for Korea. However claiming it's better then radar on recent version of F-16? Which one ? Both Korea and Israel F-16 still not using AN/APG 83, are they already compared this prototype with AN/APG 83 ?

Sorry, just like Sandhi post above, I also can't say those articles provide supporting evidence that this prototype will be better then AN/APG 83..
Unless they are based their claim with AN/APG 68 (V), which is not AESA radar anyway.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

From Bemil Chosun on the first prototype of KFX. Seems KAI on track to prepare this first prototype for flight test next year.

 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

From Bemil Chosun on the first prototype of KFX. Seems KAI on track to prepare this first prototype for flight test next year.

This shows that KAI can develop the KFX without an unreliable junior partner. They only need foreign assistance for the AESA-radar, engines and some smaller components like undercarriage, combat system and flight controlsoftware and environmental control system/oxygen systems.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
shows that KAI can develop the KFX without an unreliable junior partner.
Off course it is. KAI has far more experience in Fighter design and manufacturing from DI. DI has more experience on Turboprop Cargo plane. The idea that KAI need DI help on designing this KFX project is quite laughable. That's more on Korean diplomatic way on putting it.
KAI can be said will need DI experience if the project is to build Turboprop Airliners or even Regional Jet Airliner (as DI di already reach full design stage on N-2130).

As I have put several times whether in this thread or Indonesian AF thread, this administration need to make their decision soon whether continue on the project or not. If anything, that decision need to come out to maintain Industrial Defense relationship with ROK.
I remember previous Administration already stated from beginning, the participation in KFX project is to give DI experience in Fighter design and manufacturing. DI already missed that chances before when the plan license manufacturing Hawk 200 fell through due to Economics and political circumstances.

This administration move on puting more demand for continue participating in KFX , really puzzle ROK sides. How come you ask for IP and Exporting rights when you're only Junior Partner. It's clearly a move on buying time for either renegotiate or finding way out of the program.

KAI in the banner still put KFX/IFX clearly a diplomatic way by Korean to give chances for Indonesia to keep in the program.
I already stated that basically as Junior Partner, our position will not much different compared to buying license manufacturing project.

DI even stated in media couple years ago on potential to license production for FA-50. Thus perhaps already indication that one of the way out is to switch our payment for license manufacturing for FA-50, as some rumours that I heard indicating that.

Which is not really far from original plan for DI (or IPTN) entry on Fighters manufacturing through licensing LCA like Hawk 200 or now can be FA-50.
License Manufacturing 4-5 sq of Light Fighter while in same time increase current F-16 from 2 to 4 sq is practically the similar postures that TNI-AU during Soeharto administration plan. 5 sq Hawk 200 as LCA with some of them license build by IPTN (DI now) and 4 sq of F-16.

Going with LCA like FA-50 can be considered more realistic for our current and foreseable defense budget. I don't see we can go to 2% of GDP Defense budget, unless we see something more sinister developing. If for next 4-5 years Indonesia can maintain 1-1.25% of GDP as Defense budget is already reasonable enough. That's will be averaging USD 12 bio a year for next five years. Which already make Defense as biggest item in Government budget.

With that kind of budget, it's impossible to procured and operating for 3-4 sq of Rafale/Eurofighter/KFX and 5 sq of F-16 as some in local Defense forums think. If they do that, not enough budget left for other services. Operate 4-5 sq of LCA and another 4 sq F-16, plus one sq each of Flankers, TA-50/LIFT, and Super Tucano COIN is the postures that can be achieve with USD 10-12 bio annual Defense budget.

In short, if 11 Sq as TNI-AU plan postures still the aim, operating low cost single engine LCA and F-16 (as TNI-AU already build infrastructure to support ), is the most we can afford, unless there's significant increase on Defense budget which I don't see it.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
KFX/IFX prototype.

1599145010144.png

@Ahmad Can you please provide a source for the image. This protects both you and the forum from allegations of IP theft. It is also a requirement of the rules.

Ngatimozart
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Demanding more but want to pay less.
It could be the last chance for the Indonesian government to stay with the KFX-program, because actually the Koreans can do it alone.

Korean officials fly to Jakarta to claim delayed KF-X payments
By Kim Byung-wook

Published : Sep 22, 2020 - 16:54
Updated : Sep 22, 2020 - 16:54


 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
It could be the last chance for the Indonesian government to stay with the KFX-program, and there are several scenarios how this (maybe last) round of negotiations about the involvement/participation in this KFX-program can end:
1. Indonesia stays in the KFX-program but with reduced contribution of 15-17,5% of payments
2. Indonesia stays in the KFX-program but get more ToT, workshare and IP with contribution of 18,8-20%.
3. Indonesia stops with payments (or willing to pay the debts or a part of it) and convert the participation into the manufacturing of KFX-components and/or building/assembling the KFX under licence.
4. Indonesia stops with payments (or willing to pay the debts or a part of it) and convert the participation into the manufacturing of T-50 -components and/or building/assembling the T-50 under licence.
5. Indonesia stops with payments and involvement in any KAI programs and blames COVID-19.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
Demanding more but want to pay less.
It could be the last chance for the Indonesian government to stay with the KFX-program, because actually the Koreans can do it alone.

Korean officials fly to Jakarta to claim delayed KF-X payments
By Kim Byung-wook

Published : Sep 22, 2020 - 16:54
Updated : Sep 22, 2020 - 16:54


That title is misleading and is made by an emotional writer, the truth is it is renegotiation. Here I give more objective writing.

Korea, Indonesia set renegotiations for joint fighter jet development project

1601029308761.png


By Jung Da-min

Korea and Indonesia are working on a new agreement for their joint fighter jet project, which has hit a snag following Indonesia's delay in paying hundreds of millions of dollars.

About 10 officials from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) and Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) ― the maker of the KF-X aircraft ― left for Jakarta, Tuesday, to meet Indonesian officials on Wednesday and Thursday, according to the two organizations.

The joint fighter jet project is called the KF-X (Korean Fighter eXperimental) in Korea and the IF-X (Indonesian Fighter eXperimental) in Indonesia.

While the two sides have held four rounds of renegotiations, the latest talks come after about a year. It is also the first meeting since Indonesia's Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto took office last October. Subianto had been putting off resuming talks with the Korean government, saying he would review the overall content of the country's defense budget and weapons systems.

 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
title is misleading and is made by an emotional writer,
There's no misleading on koreaherald article. It's just koreaherald more blunt/straight forward, and koreatimes is more diplomatic. Both quite respectable news sites in South Korea.

However both are true. It's Renegotiation but also they come to make clear on Indonesian Financial participation. If Indonesia still not committed on financial obligations as agreed (whether on original agreement or in renegotiate ones), then why ROK being expected to continue including Indonesia in the project.

Since this guy right now seems got many followers from Indonesian military enthusiasts, well once at time I'll put one of his post from the Twitter:

Point is, again shown what Koreaherald article is not misleading. There's many in ROK that seems think Indonesia ask more than what it can offer.
Anyway I'm not keen on posting Twitter from this guy. Eventough many in Indonesian forums and on line media seems think this guy's has a lot off first hand knowledge. However for me, most is still part of 'rumours'. Considering how Indonesian politics play off, many of proposal can only be considered rumours untill they sign contract and the goods delivered.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That title is misleading and is made by an emotional writer, the truth is it is renegotiation. ...
Why is it misleading? How do you know that the writer is emotional? Both are rather arrogant and misleading claims to make. You offer no evidence whatsoever to support your claims. So think carefully before you post comments like that. They are not appropriate.

Now Indonesia has a choice; either commit to the program and pay the arrears. Or withdraw from the program. The South Koreans will want some certainty, not the continual will they - won't they, that's been happening.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
There's no misleading on koreaherald article. It's just koreaherald more blunt/straight forward, and koreatimes is more diplomatic. Both quite respectable news sites in South Korea.

However both are true. It's Renegotiation but also they come to make clear on Indonesian Financial participation. If Indonesia still not committed on financial obligations as agreed (whether on original agreement or in renegotiate ones), then why ROK being expected to continue including Indonesia in the project.

Since this guy right now seems got many followers from Indonesian military enthusiasts, well once at time I'll put one of his post from the Twitter:

Point is, again shown what Koreaherald article is not misleading. There's many in ROK that seems think Indonesia ask more than what it can offer.
Anyway I'm not keen on posting Twitter from this guy. Eventough many in Indonesian forums and on line media seems think this guy's has a lot off first hand knowledge. However for me, most is still part of 'rumours'. Considering how Indonesian politics play off, many of proposal can only be considered rumours untill they sign contract and the goods delivered.
"Among the agenda between Indonesia and ROK today and tomorrow meeting for KFX/IFX program is about technology field. There are more than 100 technologies on the program. The meeting may fail if nothing change on technology field. "

This text was written on 23 september, that means the meeting/negotiations was on 23-24 september (if true). With other words, the result should be announced soon...
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member

This guy Twitter on KFX really move right and left...from implying will be out from KFX and now implying other way around.

Well just like Indonesia defense procurement on some big items other projects, moving back and forth from yes to no.
Anyway if they still keep 20% development costs, then the work share should be 20% for all projects and not just work share on Indonesian License Product (well that's IFX will be, license Production of KFX in Indonesia).
That's what International Partners on F-35 getting, work share on their parts products being used as part of overall F-35 ecosystem.

This drama like Su-35, will be interesting to see how the ends will be.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
This guy Twitter on KFX really move right and left...from implying will be out from KFX and now implying other way around.
1. Reading Alman Helvas’ posts is like reading Fox News reporting on Biden and CNN reporting on Trump. 10% or less of what he writes on defence is correct.

2. His reporting of the TNI AU future requirements for the KFX is non-existent — he makes the TNI AU look bad, when it is fairly rational in its procurement preferences to address its threat matrix. Is the TNI AU’s unfunded priority AWACs and network centric warfare (aka war fighting)? Or is the industrial base more important and war fighting is 3rd or 4th in priority? IMO, network centric air warfare is not country specific but rather a commitment to system of systems engineering for sensor, shooter, EW and data link integration at a joint warfare level (and away from simplistic service centric platform acquisition fights). The Americans, Australians, Europeans and Israelis are innovators in this area.

3. Like the above Twit, 9% of all his other posts on the TNI can be accepted without correction (but without insight) and 1% gold (with insight and educational).

4. I wish he could be bothered to speak to a subject matter expert in the TNI AL on Indonesian submarine requirements, instead of being so newsy. Once the requirements are understood, how the selection criteria evolves will make more sense.

5. The Type 214 has to be a front runner but what about a bespoke Korean submarine design like the DSME2000?
(i) Indonesia has to be honest. Is the Singapore Navy’s Type 218SG a threat that the TNI AL need to face or is it a partner to work with? Surya Bhaskara Jaya (SBJ) is a partnership project which seems to have been discontinued, which indicates a reduced desire to work together. Frankly, I am confused on Indonesia’s perceived threat matrix from an Indonesian perspective. Is the threat orientation directed at Malaysia (low bar), at Singapore (medium bar) or at China (high bar)? If it is directed at the PLA(N), TNI AL will need Singapore more than we need Indonesia.​
(ii) If the Type 218SG is part of the threat matrix, then TNI AL needs much better submarines than a Type 209 or Tyoe 214 design. The argument can’t be just the need to keep up with its neighbours — because Singapore is interested in maintaining its secret edge in sensors and EW when our navy develops its submarine operations requirements, viz-a-viz the relatively new Malaysian submarines.​
(iii) IMHO, Singapore submarines, if I had to guess must be able to operate more than 1,000km from home with an endurance of greater than 45 days and must have AIP, because of bottom sitting in some missions sets.​
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I put his Twitter just to shown how decision making process on this administration, are coming back and forth. This resulted with soo many rumours going around in various media. I do have to give credit for Jokowi's administration decision making process when building Toll Roads. It's decisive and quit fast and relative well planning.

Much of the rest including in Defense seems shrouded with lack of real planning and studies. Resulted with decision that seems in trial and error, and sometimes testing the waters. His administration handling on COVID 19 is one of best example on that.

Anyway, this situation should not come on that. This is the sixth year of his administration. This administration should make this kind of Renegotiation the first year when they take over from SBY administration. If they don't agree or fully support some SBY defense project (including involvement with KFX), then they should do it then.

It's not good for Indonesian image for international projects involvement, if they seems put the decision in limbo for several years.
 
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