S.Korea, Indonesia to develop 4.5 gen fighter aircraft KFX

Eeshaan

New Member
KFX/IFX jet fighter to be build by Indonesia and South Korea - UPI.com

That's interesting. This I think will be the first Asian 4.5 gen fighter, developed to rival the likes of Eurofighter and Rafale. It will be designated the F-33 when production begins.

South Korea has the technology and experience with operating and maintaining Western fighter aircraft, while Indonesia is contributing 20 % of the cost and 30 Engineers. SK is also looking for collaoration with several Western defense firms.
 

King Wally

Member
Yeah I never knew what to make of this project.

Do you feel Indonesia feels pressured by Australia's incoming F-35's?

Seams like a lot of risk to design something that will probably only sit on par with existing models already out in the market place. I have this impression of a rather hap hazard approach to defence procurement from Indonesia. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, they currently field a range of fast jets from F-16's to Sukhoi's to F5's, a lot of them not very old. If it were me I'd just sit on or bulk up the F-16's or Sukhoi's until an obviously superior option presented itself (a true 5th gen). Maybe that's just me.
 

Vegan-Zombie

New Member
Understand that a strong sense of Nationalism is present in the government and population. When given the option to manufacture their own equipment, regardless of capabilities, they would usually put it to the top of their procurement list. Localized manufacturing also gives them an advantage of bypassing embargoes, thus letting them suppress any armed conflicts as they please.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What chances are Indonesia on joining the JSF (F-35) project?
Without wishing to upset anybody: nil.

The project is 3-4 years away from delivering operational aircraft. All the design work is done, the planned workshare is largely allocated and the production process is well on the way (just over 100 airframes exist or are already in production)

As to buying JSF, well I don't necessarily see that Indonesia would be excluded from that, but I don't see any realistic proposition that Indonesia would be able to afford it...
 

Vivendi

Member
As to buying JSF, well I don't necessarily see that Indonesia would be excluded from that, but I don't see any realistic proposition that Indonesia would be able to afford it...
According to LM the F-35 should be affordable, and in the F-16 price range.

Does the above mean that you don't believe LM's propaganda when it comes to cost...?
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Without wishing to upset anybody: nil.

The project is 3-4 years away from delivering operational aircraft. All the design work is done, the planned workshare is largely allocated and the production process is well on the way (just over 100 airframes exist or are already in production)

As to buying JSF, well I don't necessarily see that Indonesia would be excluded from that, but I don't see any realistic proposition that Indonesia would be able to afford it...
At the moment 'no'. However if the economy growth as it is, after 2020, there will be enough budget to do that. LM already hinted Indonesia is one of potential JSF users after 2020, simply because they see the potential after 2020.

Personally, I see Russian T-50 have more prospect being procured by Indonesia then JSF. However like ROK, the bulk of the fleet after 2020+ will consists on KFX/IFX program, 'if' the program goes as plan.

LM told any potential JSF customers (which basically they aimed on existing F-16 users), that by 2020+ the procurement cost of F-35 will be relatively in 'fixed index price' similar with current F-16 block 52.

In other word LM seems incline that eventhough in dollar term it will be much higher than current F-16 block 50+, however by 2020+ the procurement costs will be as affordable with current procurement costs of F-16 block 50+.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Recent news suggest that the SK's postponed development till late 2013 up to early 2014 due to the elections. Plus the FX-III program is hampering the defense budget for the KF-X.

sources:
Korea Hentikan Pendanaan KFX untuk 2013

Korean Stop Funding KFX for 2013, What are the implications for Indonesia?

Indonesia, S. Korea postpone cooperation on fighter jet development: official - NZweek
The first stage of the project already finish, the second stage being postponed with officiall statement ROK now more concentrating on FX-III, and hoping will got ToT from the project that will be used on KFX/IFX. However with Indonesian present administrations will terminated on 2014, I do more incline to believe the ROK put much factor also on whose will come put as Indonesia next administrations on 2014.
 

Vegan-Zombie

New Member
Agreed, hopefully it won't end up like the Soeharto case and we end up buying something that doesn't fully suit our needs. Honestly I don't know what to make of the project, so far our aviation industry has only had experience in the tactical transport and commercial aviation sector. A 4.5th jet, especially if we plan on staying in the project even up till the Block 1-3 stages which would make it on par with 5th gen fighters, is a huge leap forward, and not in the good sense of the term.
 

rand0m

Member
Agreed, hopefully it won't end up like the Soeharto case and we end up buying something that doesn't fully suit our needs. Honestly I don't know what to make of the project, so far our aviation industry has only had experience in the tactical transport and commercial aviation sector. A 4.5th jet, especially if we plan on staying in the project even up till the Block 1-3 stages which would make it on par with 5th gen fighters, is a huge leap forward, and not in the good sense of the term.
How will a 4th gen fighter with block 1 - 3 be on par with 5th gen fighter? Keep in mind that 5th gen fighters will also undergo upgrades over their life :confused:
 

Vegan-Zombie

New Member
Keep in mind I said 4.5th Gen at first, Koreans plan to redesign them in 3 Blocks after a design is picked to achieve levels and capabilities currently in the F-35 an F-22, it either means that they want the KF-X to become a 4.5th stealth fighter in the long run or take steps to develop it to become a 5th gen. If the Koreans do get the F-35, chances are they're going to implement things on to the KF-X that the Koreans see as an improvement.

I am aware that they have previously said that they didn't want it to be a 5th gen, but why would you make plans to upgrade and redesign them to the capabilities of a 5th gen if they wanted it to be a 4.5th gen? How they are going to do it is beyond me, but since currently I haven't found information that says otherwise, I'd think its their current goal, albeit secretly.

As I said before, I don't know what to think of this project, it has its pros and cons but it seems very unviable. unless other nations join in, chances are its going to be a big flop...

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_02_18_2013_p23-548417.xml
 

SamuraiBlue

New Member
Koreans has no history of developing a fighter PERIOD.
The only previous history is developing an advance trainer that is designed by Lockheed Martin(T-50).
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
According to LM the F-35 should be affordable, and in the F-16 price range.

Does the above mean that you don't believe LM's propaganda when it comes to cost...?
And have Indonesia been able to afford new F-16's? No.

Quit being a smart arse.
 

Vivendi

Member
And have Indonesia been able to afford new F-16's? No.
Why should they buy new F-16 when they get slightly used for free? Anyway I believe they need to pay for the upgrade. And they definitely need to pay for the operating costs, which in the long run constitutes the main costs of having fighter aircraft.

In any case; if you insist that they cannot afford new F-16 then does that mean that you

a) believe they cannot afford to join the development of a new "4.5 gen fighter", or

b) believe that the new fighter will be much cheaper than a new F-16, since you have already established that they cannot afford new F-16.

Quit being a smart arse.
Careful or I report you to the Moderators... :D

Indonesia's (nominal) GDP currently ranks number 16 in the world; however more importantly there is significant growth.

Indonesia's economic outlook remains positive next year, thanks to a steady domestic consumption, a robust investment climate and the accelerated infrastructure development, media reported here on Wednesday.

Barclays Research predicts that Indonesia's economy, the biggest in Southeast Asia, will expand 6.3 percent in 2013, the same pace as this year's projected growth. Last year it grew 6.5 percent, the fastest pace since 1996.

Among the 10 emerging Asian nations covered by Barclays Research, the country will have the third-fastest economic growth after China and India next year.
Indonesia's economic growth likely to remain strong in 2013 - Globaltimes.cn
 

Gadjah Mada

New Member
And have Indonesia been able to afford new F-16's? No.

Quit being a smart arse.
Officially Indonesia has the second largest military expenditure in ASEAN behind to Singapore, despite only 0.7% of GDP. It is larger than Pakistan, Egypt, Thailand, Morocco, etc. Do not talk about GDP, Indonesia is in G20. The money is available, but corrupt officers still a big problem. Indonesia has no ally, this also means no discount price and more difficult bureaucracy.

TNI AD chief of staff has complained about the price of apache longbow which was found skyrocketed after TNI AD officers visited its factory in the US: http://www.republika.co.id/berita/nasional/umum/13/02/25/mirgbg-tni-ad-pilih-beli-black-hawk

While sometime ago when defending the Leopard MBT procurement he also mentioned about the Russian procurement system which is "full of mafia".

It seems there is no easy place to buy good weapons for Indonesia.

Other than that, most Indonesian nationalist doubt that the US will sell to Indonesia better weapon system than Singapore or Australia, even though if one day Indonesia could afford it. Historically only Soviet Union supplied Indonesia generously.

Sometime you should learn to distinguish between the word "able" and "unwilling" between involved parties.
 

rand0m

Member
TNI AD chief of staff has complained about the price of apache longbow which was found skyrocketed after TNI AD officers visited its factory in the US: http://www.republika.co.id/berita/nasional/umum/13/02/25/mirgbg-tni-ad-pilih-beli-black-hawk
I have no intention of being rude but how does one compare an Apache Longbow to a Blackhawk helicopter? Two very different aircraft for very different roles. Either the person writing the article or General Pramono Edhie Wibowo has absolutely no idea what they're talking about :dbanana
 

Gadjah Mada

New Member
I have no intention of being rude but how does one compare an Apache Longbow to a Blackhawk helicopter? Two very different aircraft for very different roles. Either the person writing the article or General Pramono Edhie Wibowo has absolutely no idea what they're talking about :dbanana
TNI AD want to buy around 8 Apache. But because of the higher price, they decided to go for blackhawk/battle hawk variant which they think equivalent to Mi-35 in TNI AD inventory. This decision is supported by the parliament considering that it will be useful too in the time of natural disaster.

Thus, the same amount of money originally intended for 8 Apache will go for 20 blackhawk instead.

It seems TNI AD will not go for Russian choppers anymore.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
The nature of TNI-AU ( Indonesian AF ) procurement has been talked quite some time in Indonesian AF thread.
@ Gadjah Mada, I'm not entirely agree Indonesian can't get better deal on weapons procurement with US, or other Western suppliers. The thing is (as you have mentioned), corrupt practices is still a big problem/risks within Indonesian procurement. Personally I do believe the current procurement practices is much better than previous administrations, however if saying it's allready up to best practices of accountability and openes/disclosure then no it's much need to improved.

From info that I got from finance ministry, there're still some questions especially when dealing with support packages and other details. The practices to differentiate the procurement budget between main assets and support (i,e airframes and support packages including weapons), being questioned wheter its efficient or not. This resulted the procurement being divided between packages rather one overall package which usually can provide better deal.

I do believe rather than talking Indonesia can't get discount, more talked about the procurement practices. This is not just Indonesian problem, seeing on different forum and media, similar situations can be found on India (for example) where the packages is much bigger but still within India it self raised questions on efficiency , accountability, etc.

@ADMk2, on Indonesian AF it's been discussed that the current 24 ex USAF F-16 block 25 deal plus the upgrade of 10 existing block 15 OCU is a trade off between getting 34 fully upgrade older F-16 or 8-12 new block 52.

This is actually the choice that being offered by US to Indonesian administrations. Getting new F-16 or older but fully upgrade F-16 but with more than twice in term of quantity. Indonesia AF than choose quantity over newer airframes (quality).

Is it make sense. Well it is debatable. However their perspective is those F-16 used as stop gap until KFX or something else can be procured by 2020+. For that they seems believe more on quantity over quality.

In other word, they seems think more on getting more sq wirh older airframes rarher than fewer sq but newer airframes.
 

Vegan-Zombie

New Member
Guys, please keep on-topic, if this is about Blackhawks, Leopards, or Apaches then go to the appropriate Indonesian Air Force and Indonesian Army threads...
 
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