Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

I know the UK isn't in the greatest financial position right now and we are still to get some of the later deliveries of Typhoon but when will serious consideration start being given to whatever platform succeeds it?
Given that it takes a fair while just to do initial design studies let alone flight testing would it be premature to think they might do preliminary studies this decade?
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Oh, God, yes, I'd forgotten about that - we'll see F35's trundling around with luneberg lenses fitted and have to listen to the tin foil hat brigade announcing "well, the local civilian air traffic radar was tracking it from 100 miles away" ad nauseam. Damn..always something old getting dragged back up.
Yep, though the F-35 has moved away from the Lunesberg Lens type reflectors to enhance it's RCS for peacetime purposes.

F-35 uses four squared off oblong shaped transmitters fitted above and below the fuselage just in front of the vertical fins to manage it's signature.

You can see one of them here just in front of the left vertical fin and another underneath the fuselage just forward of the "hump" underneath the engine:

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/media/2011_AF09_Flight02_AB_1267828237_6456.jpg
 
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colay

New Member
I must admit that the idea of the F-35 being fitted with RCS ehancers only arose when I read this thread. Somehow, the fact that thousands of these things are going to be flying around in the future, operated by a multitude of nations, convinced me that trying to keep it's RCS a secret would be an exercise in futility.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I must admit that the idea of the F-35 being fitted with RCS ehancers only arose when I read this thread. Somehow, the fact that thousands of these things are going to be flying around in the future, operated by a multitude of nations, convinced me that trying to keep it's RCS a secret would be an exercise in futility.
One could well say the same things for radar and weapons capabilities too. Yet military forces have kept the secrets of their full capability from those they want to...

The only way that RCS is going to be determined is when the aircraft is measured by a radar system or if the classified specs leak.

No nation will be flying these aircraft in full wartime configuration, until a war starts, even then in the limited scenarios we see today (Libya being the most recent example) the full capability of the aircraft may still not be apparent.

In addition to which, signature management is an on-going exercise. F-35's in 2030 won't have the same signature level they have in 2020 and so on...
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yep, though the F-35 has moved away from the Lunesberg Lens type reflectors to enhance it's RCS for peacetime purposes.

F-35 uses four squared off oblong shaped transmitters fitted above and below the fuselage just in front of the vertical fins to manage it's signature.

You can see one of them here just in front of the left vertical fin and another underneath the fuselage just forward of the "hump" underneath the engine:

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/media/2011_AF09_Flight02_AB_1267828237_6456.jpg
Ah, I see 'em - thanks ! First time someone pointed out the LL's on an F22, I just "gosh, it's a boy..." - these look fairly compact. Stand by for a fanning of the "export configuration" conspiracy thread the second a USN bird in tactical config is in the same airspace as anyone else's carrying these devices.
 
Now the decision has been made for the UK to purchase the F35B is the Navy going to be the sole user of the F35B or will the RAF still operate the type as originally planned?
If the RAF is still to operate the aircraft is there a requirement for a relatively short range aircraft with a limited weapons load?
Would it not be better for the RN to operate the F35B while the RAF orders additional Typhoon to replace the Tornado or the F35A?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Now the decision has been made for the UK to purchase the F35B is the Navy going to be the sole user of the F35B or will the RAF still operate the type as originally planned?
If the RAF is still to operate the aircraft is there a requirement for a relatively short range aircraft with a limited weapons load?
Would it not be better for the RN to operate the F35B while the RAF orders additional Typhoon to replace the Tornado or the F35A?
AFAIK the RAF + RN will both operatee the F35B and despite all the flip-flopping nobody has suggested F35A (again, AFAIK) so it's safe to assume that won't happen.
 
The fact that the Italians who are broke are still going to order the F35A and F35B because of differing requirements you think the UK government must have come to the same conclusion that the RAF operating F35B is illogical.
As fewer aircraft are going to be based on carriers it would be logical for the RN to be the sole operator of F35B and maybe a joint UK/Italian training establishment could be set up to reduce costs etc?
 

the concerned

Active Member
With regard's to the eurofighter needing a replacement i would have thought that it should be good enough to be in service until at least 2030. I hope we have a government that has the courage to look at what is actually on offer at that time and not embark on another costly joint european effort,maybe take a look at what the US is replacing the F-18e/F-22/F-15e with by then and just buy off the shelf.
 
Philip Hammond has confirmed there are no current plans for the UK to purchase a Nimrod replacement.

I would argue that a maritime reconnaissance fleet is more essential than aircraft carriers (although I would prefer both capabilities) especially as we have nuclear subs to protect and the same aircraft can prove to be very useful in the overland surveillance role making it a very useful asset.

The Sentinel aircraft has proved to be a very useful aircraft in Afghanistan and Libya and with it been impossible to predict the future a decision to withdraw the aircraft may prove to another costly mistake.

I appreciate that money is scarce but maybe cancelling A400M ordering addition Hercules and C17A is a way to afford a limited maritime surveillance capability (2nd hand re-winged P3?) and keeping Sentinel

IN FOCUS: How Hammond's balancing act brought stability to UK defence

By: CRAIG HOYLE LONDON 12:00 16 May 2012 Source:

The UK will be able to meet its military spending priorities for the next 10 years without having to make additional cuts to its personnel or equipment profiles, defence secretary Philip Hammond has announced.

Marking the completion of a delayed planning round process for 2012, Hammond's 14 May statement confirmed that the Ministry of Defence's long-term funding has been brought into balance, with £152 billion ($245 billion) to be made available over the next decade, plus an unallocated contingency of £8 billion.

"The black hole in the defence budget has finally been eliminated," he says, referring to a previously identified funding shortfall of £38 billion in delivering the UK's Future Force 2020 structure.

Eurofighter

The 10-year spending plan will cover capability enhancements for the RAF's Eurofighter Typhoons

All major aircraft acquisition programmes remain in place under the allocation, which will include funding undisclosed capability enhancements to the Eurofighter Typhoon and ordering the UK's first series production examples of the short take-off and vertical landing Lockheed Martin F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

While conceding that it is difficult to budget exactly on the latter type at this stage in the US-led programme, Hammond says: "We have a pretty shrewd idea of what the JSF is going to cost."


BAE Systems

The UK will operate the F-35B from its Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers

Also safe are air transport programmes to introduce the Airbus Military A400M, A330 Voyager and an eighth Boeing C-17, as is a deal with L-3 Communications for three RC-135 Airseeker electronic intelligence-gathering aircraft. The UK will also go forward with orders for AgustaWestland's Lynx Wildcat and 14 Boeing CH-47 Chinook HC6 helicopters, along with upgrades to the AgustaWestland Merlin HM1 and Eurocopter Puma HC1 for the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force, respectively. A life-extension programme for the British Army's Westland/Boeing Apache AH1 attack helicopters is also secure.

An upgrade programme will extend operations of the Apache AH1 beyond 2025

Some £7 billion has been allocated to support precision-guided weapons programmes for the three armed services, while £4 billion has been earmarked for new cyber projects and intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance equipment.

The latter will include a "Crow's Nest" effort to replace the navy's Westland Sea King 7 airborne surveillance and control system helicopters. The MoD will also assess its options with regard to retaining the Raytheon Systems Sentinel R1 airborne stand-off radar fleet post-2015, or retire the modified business jets as planned and replace their capability using other equipment.

A final decision has yet to come on whether to retain the Sentinel R1

With painful cuts having already been made as a consequence of the UK coalition government's Strategic Defence and Security Review of September 2010, Hammond says the 10-year planning process has been about, "reluctantly accepting smaller armed forces and redoubling our resolve to invest in the best possible equipment for them".

Ongoing procurement reform should look to learn lessons from the urgent operational requirement model used to rapidly acquire new equipment to support operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, he believes.

Referring to a previous "conspiracy of optimism", where politicians, defence procurement officials and the military would launch programmes against an unrealistic best-case scenario, Hammond says "no project will be allowed to commit without a 10-year budget line to cover not only its procurement, but also its support costs". And he cautions that "individuals and contractors can expect to be held to account for the estimates on which decisions are based".

The UK National Audit Office will perform a review of the new equipment plan and report on its affordability against the available budget, which counts on a 1% real-term increase in defence spending per year from 2015. Hammond says the MoD also has an assurance from the Treasury that any funds released via further efficiency savings will be spent on defence equipment.

This would add to the £8 billion contingency fund, parts of which will be allocated on a yearly basis "to respond to emerging equipment requirements" not yet included within the core defence programme.

One major element lacking from the Future Force 2020 plan is any reintroduction of the RAF's lapsed maritime patrol aircraft capability. "Maritime surveillance from conventional aircraft is not currently funded in the programme," Hammond confirms. "A number of different technologies will be available to deal with it as we approach the end of the decade. That is one of the decisions that the armed forces committee will have to make when it considers the prioritisation for the headroom in the planned equipment budget."

The UK's balanced budget does not include funds to order a replacement for its cancelled Nimrod MRA4 maritime patrol aircraft

"Military stability - knowing what we can afford; how many personnel, ships, vehicles and aircraft - is essential to planning for future success," says Gen Sir David Richards, Chief of the Defence Staff. "This balanced budget will give us much greater stability. Through it we have received a commitment of investment over the next decade, giving us much-needed clarity on which to base our plans."
 
Philip Hammond has confirmed there are no current plans for the UK to purchase a Nimrod replacement.

I would argue that a maritime reconnaissance fleet is more essential than aircraft carriers (although I would prefer both capabilities) especially as we have nuclear subs to protect and the same aircraft can prove to be very useful in the overland surveillance role makes it a very useful asset.

The Sentinel aircraft has proved to be very useful aircraft in Afghanistan and Libya and with it been impossible to predict the future a decision to withdraw the aircraft maybe prove to another costly mistake.

IN FOCUS: How Hammond's balancing act brought stability to UK defence

By: CRAIG HOYLE LONDON 12:00 16 May 2012 Source:

The UK will be able to meet its military spending priorities for the next 10 years without having to make additional cuts to its personnel or equipment profiles, defence secretary Philip Hammond has announced.

Marking the completion of a delayed planning round process for 2012, Hammond's 14 May statement confirmed that the Ministry of Defence's long-term funding has been brought into balance, with £152 billion ($245 billion) to be made available over the next decade, plus an unallocated contingency of £8 billion.

"The black hole in the defence budget has finally been eliminated," he says, referring to a previously identified funding shortfall of £38 billion in delivering the UK's Future Force 2020 structure.

Eurofighter

The 10-year spending plan will cover capability enhancements for the RAF's Eurofighter Typhoons

All major aircraft acquisition programmes remain in place under the allocation, which will include funding undisclosed capability enhancements to the Eurofighter Typhoon and ordering the UK's first series production examples of the short take-off and vertical landing Lockheed Martin F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

While conceding that it is difficult to budget exactly on the latter type at this stage in the US-led programme, Hammond says: "We have a pretty shrewd idea of what the JSF is going to cost."


BAE Systems

The UK will operate the F-35B from its Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers

Also safe are air transport programmes to introduce the Airbus Military A400M, A330 Voyager and an eighth Boeing C-17, as is a deal with L-3 Communications for three RC-135 Airseeker electronic intelligence-gathering aircraft. The UK will also go forward with orders for AgustaWestland's Lynx Wildcat and 14 Boeing CH-47 Chinook HC6 helicopters, along with upgrades to the AgustaWestland Merlin HM1 and Eurocopter Puma HC1 for the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force, respectively. A life-extension programme for the British Army's Westland/Boeing Apache AH1 attack helicopters is also secure.

An upgrade programme will extend operations of the Apache AH1 beyond 2025

Some £7 billion has been allocated to support precision-guided weapons programmes for the three armed services, while £4 billion has been earmarked for new cyber projects and intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance equipment.

The latter will include a "Crow's Nest" effort to replace the navy's Westland Sea King 7 airborne surveillance and control system helicopters. The MoD will also assess its options with regard to retaining the Raytheon Systems Sentinel R1 airborne stand-off radar fleet post-2015, or retire the modified business jets as planned and replace their capability using other equipment.

A final decision has yet to come on whether to retain the Sentinel R1

With painful cuts having already been made as a consequence of the UK coalition government's Strategic Defence and Security Review of September 2010, Hammond says the 10-year planning process has been about, "reluctantly accepting smaller armed forces and redoubling our resolve to invest in the best possible equipment for them".

Ongoing procurement reform should look to learn lessons from the urgent operational requirement model used to rapidly acquire new equipment to support operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, he believes.

Referring to a previous "conspiracy of optimism", where politicians, defence procurement officials and the military would launch programmes against an unrealistic best-case scenario, Hammond says "no project will be allowed to commit without a 10-year budget line to cover not only its procurement, but also its support costs". And he cautions that "individuals and contractors can expect to be held to account for the estimates on which decisions are based".

The UK National Audit Office will perform a review of the new equipment plan and report on its affordability against the available budget, which counts on a 1% real-term increase in defence spending per year from 2015. Hammond says the MoD also has an assurance from the Treasury that any funds released via further efficiency savings will be spent on defence equipment.

This would add to the £8 billion contingency fund, parts of which will be allocated on a yearly basis "to respond to emerging equipment requirements" not yet included within the core defence programme.

One major element lacking from the Future Force 2020 plan is any reintroduction of the RAF's lapsed maritime patrol aircraft capability. "Maritime surveillance from conventional aircraft is not currently funded in the programme," Hammond confirms. "A number of different technologies will be available to deal with it as we approach the end of the decade. That is one of the decisions that the armed forces committee will have to make when it considers the prioritisation for the headroom in the planned equipment budget."

The UK's balanced budget does not include funds to order a replacement for its cancelled Nimrod MRA4 maritime patrol aircraft

"Military stability - knowing what we can afford; how many personnel, ships, vehicles and aircraft - is essential to planning for future success," says Gen Sir David Richards, Chief of the Defence Staff. "This balanced budget will give us much greater stability. Through it we have received a commitment of investment over the next decade, giving us much-needed clarity on which to base our plans."
 

Toptob

Active Member
I appreciate that money is scarce but maybe cancelling A400M ordering addition Hercules and C17A is a way to afford a limited maritime surveillance capability (2nd hand re-winged P3?) and keeping Sentinel
I think that transport capability has and wil have priority over surveillance. Transport fleets is most NATO airforces are being worked hard, and transport capacity is prized. Also, if it would be cheaper to cancel the A400M they would have.

It would be good to bring back maritime surveillance, but I'd rather see the P8. Sentinel is a very good platform, but I think they want to do those missions with UAV's. Theyll have rivet joint for C2.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Is there any news regarding the missing crew from the crash in the North Sea?
Hope they are found soon, any idea of the cause yet?
 
UK slashes F-35B numbers but might look to split buy with F-35As
By Robert Hewson

7/27/2012

UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has signalled a major revision to the UK's plan for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), with a sizeable cut in the expected number of F-35B short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft purchased and the possible acquisition of a second variant: the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A.

In remarks on 19 July in the United States, Hammond said the UK would order 48 F-35Bs to equip the UK's future carrier strike force. He added that a follow-on F-35 buy would be set out in a future Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), with the aim of replacing the Eurofighter Typhoon in UK service.

Hammond was in the US to attend the handover of the UK's first F-35B (BK-1) at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth facility. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed his comments, telling IHS Jane's : "The defence secretary said that initially the UK would buy 48 jets for the aircraft carriers and announce at a later date what the final numbers would be. We will not finalise our decisions on the F-35 programme until SDSR in 2015."
Maybe at last some common sense - I have always wondered why the RAF wants to operate carrier capable CTOL or VTOL aircraft with all the associated performance limitations.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Maybe at last some common sense - I have always wondered why the RAF wants to operate carrier capable CTOL or VTOL aircraft with all the associated performance limitations.
As long as they buy enough F-35B for the RN then i'm not too fussed what the RAF buy.

Personally it does seem like the most logical choice for the RAF, although the C/A comparison is much more closer than an A/B.

The thing I really like about the RAF getting the A is that (I can't remember who said it) it REALLY gives the UK a seat at the planning table with the US in future operations and the UK can actually contribute on offensive operations on day 1 in heavily contested airspace. Of course, the B can do that too, but for the RAF the A would to a greater degree.

Of course, not forgetting the obvious bring back capability + internal capacity of the A.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
UK slashes F-35B numbers but might look to split buy with F-35As
By Robert Hewson

7/27/2012

UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has signalled a major revision to the UK's plan for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), with a sizeable cut in the expected number of F-35B short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft purchased and the possible acquisition of a second variant: the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A.

In remarks on 19 July in the United States, Hammond said the UK would order 48 F-35Bs to equip the UK's future carrier strike force. He added that a follow-on F-35 buy would be set out in a future Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), with the aim of replacing the Eurofighter Typhoon in UK service.

Hammond was in the US to attend the handover of the UK's first F-35B (BK-1) at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth facility. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed his comments, telling IHS Jane's : "The defence secretary said that initially the UK would buy 48 jets for the aircraft carriers and announce at a later date what the final numbers would be. We will not finalise our decisions on the F-35 programme until SDSR in 2015."
Maybe at last some common sense - I have always wondered why the RAF wants to operate carrier capable CTOL or VTOL aircraft with all the associated performance limitations.
The headline is bollocks.

1) Numbers have not been slashed. Indeed, the initial order is more than some have speculated might be the total number, & follow-on orders are specifically mentioned.

2) There is nothing in what Hammond said to indicate any change in policy with regard to F-35A. All he's said is that in 2015 there'll be a decision on total numbers.

The reference to F-35 replacing Typhoon is not a quote, & I strongly suspect it's yet more journalistic over-interpretation.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The headline is bollocks.

1) Numbers have not been slashed. Indeed, the initial order is more than some have speculated might be the total number, & follow-on orders are specifically mentioned.

2) There is nothing in what Hammond said to indicate any change in policy with regard to F-35A. All he's said is that in 2015 there'll be a decision on total numbers.

The reference to F-35 replacing Typhoon is not a quote, & I strongly suspect it's yet more journalistic over-interpretation.
+1, wot 'e sed etc.

I get a bit fed up when I read these things and the quote said "I'm looking forward to tea with the family" and the headline reads "Minister anticipates major supply chain shakeup.

Basically there's nothing confirmed. I actually think getting 48 B plus a larger number of A would be the optimum solution for the UK - Italy is going down that route, although critically they're sticking with the concept that Navy Air needs to be run by the Navy. I think we need to take that on board.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
The reference to F-35 replacing Typhoon is not a quote, & I strongly suspect it's yet more journalistic over-interpretation.
Indeed, if anything it appears that their justification of publishing what they did most likely comes down to "Well, you didn't say you WERE buying B so!"

IIRC the figure being thrown around even post-SDSR was 138, so let the FAA have 60-odd B's and be nice to the RAF and let them fill the rest of the slots with A's.

That's what i'd like to see.
 
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