ROKAF stealth plane

[NICO]

One has to wonder how happy the Russians would be to sell PAFKA to Skorea. Yeah, nice pile of cash for Russia but then what? What kind of limitations would they impose? I don't think Sukoi/Russian Govt would be thrilled to see PAKFA go to Red Flag and fight with/against US forces. I always find it amusing how Americans are always so concerned about Russia or especially now China having access to US military technology but nobody believes Russia won't have a little problem with their pride and joy sharing the same flight line with American jets and tech people?

Russia to SK:" You want to fly to Red Flag and test it all out, sure go right ahead! Hey, use all the radar modes and fire a few shots too. USAF test pilots want to fly it? Sure, be my guest." Yeah,right.nfloorl:

I know India has taken SUs to Red Flag but they had numerous constraints put on them, which is OK for India because very unlikely we will fight alongside them, but how would SKorea forces flying PAKFAs be able to operate correctly with US fighters if they can't train together? How about maintenance, especially in times of conflict? No chance you getting any spare parts from the US for those birds, shoot, our techs probably couldn't do more than help when refueling, maybe ammo replenish, that's about it. Would Russia guarantee parts to SK in case of war with NK? What happens if China starts to growl? Maybe, no more spare parts?

It is an interesting contest because all 4 candidates have strengths and weaknesses and they are all so different. Some have LO, some little LO, some are in production, others are still testing, pricing will be all over the place, tech transfers in military and probably civilian exchanges might be offered, etc....I think there is more "diversity" in this contest than India's MRCA contest....

 

[Bonza]

I don't think the PAK-FA would have much chance of consideration without there first being some pretty serious changes in South Korea's political relationship with the United States. Not only would there be security considerations on Russia's part (and rightfully so), but I can't help thinking there would have to be a breakdown in ties between South Korea and the US before a Russian-sourced frontline fighter became a realistic or favorable option.

Besides the obvious security and political ramifications for South Korea, Russia and the United States, from a purely practical standpoint it strikes me as quite a long shot too, as from what I understand the ROKAF uses predominantly US-sourced equipment, weapons and platforms - the effective operation of a Russian platform within an essentially Western air combat system would surely mean far more work, money and problems than some of the Western alternatives mentioned.

I'm no expert but it seems to me like the PAK-FA would be a highly unusual choice... in my humble opinion the more sensible choice would be to wait until the F-35 is available - and if interim aircraft are required in the meantime, would it not be more logical to opt for a follow-on order of F-15Ks? A two-seat Eagle equipped with Link-16, a reasonably modern (if not cutting-edge) radar, JHMCS, and modern A2A/A2G munitions is certainly nothing to sneeze at, and the airframe has already shown itself capable of further modernisation (such as AESA systems, etc) if necessary. More to the point, the ROKAF already operate the type and thus have the knowledge and infrastructure required to support it. Surely this would be cheaper than funding development of a new Eagle variant or adopting a new type entirely?

I like the idea of the Silent Eagle, but as Wormhole mentioned I think it came along a bit too late for it to have a great chance of being developed any further. In the case of countries that already operate advanced Eagle variants like South Korea and Singapore, I don't see why they wouldn't continue operating (and/or upgrading) their existing variants until a more pronounced step forward in capability (such as the F-35) becomes available to them.

Between the Super Hornet, Eurofighter, the F-35, and existing Strike Eagle derivatives, it seems like there isn't much room left for the Silent Eagle... but as I said, I'm no expert, and I'm not familiar enough with the ROKAF's operations or requirements to say anything for sure.

 

[wormhole]

I confess to being somewhat confused by the KF-X program. I thought that this was the program to develop an indigenous Gen 5jet, since downgraded to what is now called a Gen 4.5 jet. Supposedly, Indonesia is investing nearly $1.6B for a share in the program.


Now, there's this bidding with 4 contending jets, the F-35, PAK-FA, EF Typhoon and F-15SE w/c is also referrred to as KF-X.

What's going on?

 

[Twinblade]

I confess to being somewhat confused by the KF-X program. I thought that this was the program to develop an indigenous Gen 5jet, since downgraded to what is now called a Gen 4.5 jet. Supposedly, Indonesia is investing nearly $1.6B for a share in the program.


Now, there's this bidding with 4 contending jets, the F-35, PAK-FA, EF Typhoon and F-15SE w/c is also referrred to as KF-X.

What's going on?

KF-X is the name of the ongoing project for indigenous aircraft, the competition among other planes is KF-X III.

 

[T.C.P]

Just for some personal clarification-

S.Korea's current air craft develoment plans are- Fa-50, KF-X and KF-X right?


Seems very ambitious, but I must ask why do they need to go so all out, I mean their biggest threat is NK and really, the current S.Korean air force is more than capable of handling the North Koreans can possibly dish out for a few decades. I understand that China poses a threat, but the chances of an all out war between China and S.K are very slim. Before answering my post, please note that my depth of knowledge into the South Korea's strategic issues is not very deep.

 

[Feanor]

I don't think the PAK-FA would have much chance of consideration without there first being some pretty serious changes in South Korea's political relationship with the United States. Not only would there be security considerations on Russia's part (and rightfully so), but I can't help thinking there would have to be a breakdown in ties between South Korea and the US before a Russian-sourced frontline fighter became a realistic or favorable option.

Almaz-Antey did develop a SAM for the RoK based on the S-400, and they do operate BMP-3 and T-80U (iirc as OpFor, or training units, but I may be wrong there). So it's not out of bounds. There is quite a ways to go, however, from some minor equipment purchases, to their main air superiority fighter for decades to come. So generally, the whole thing is quite unlikely. However the experience of participating in this tender would be very useful both for the RoK and for Sukhoi. It would also open the door to Russian participation in other tenders with traditional American allies in the Far East, with possibly more realistic chances of winning.

I'm wondering if the Russians will actually participate given they're less than a year into flight test and the PAK-FA still has a long way to go before it reaches frontline squadrons. A realistic estimate says it will take perhaps 10 years to work out the bugs regardless of what the manufacturer and government claim.

As it stands they plan to purchase pre-production models for Lipetsk in 2013.

Price is always a copnsideration and the PAK-FA isn;t going to be cheap. When the F-35 reaches volume production, it may very well be the cheapest among the four contenders.. we shall see.

As it stands the F-35 volume production is quite a ways off, just like the PAK-FA. The F-35 is also an international project with production slots already allotted. It will be some time before it hits the open market.

 

[wormhole]

Almaz-Antey did develop a SAM for the RoK based on the S-400, and they do operate BMP-3 and T-80U (iirc as OpFor, or training units, but I may be wrong there). So it's not out of bounds. There is quite a ways to go, however, from some minor equipment purchases, to their main air superiority fighter for decades to come. So generally, the whole thing is quite unlikely. However the experience of participating in this tender would be very useful both for the RoK and for Sukhoi. It would also open the door to Russian participation in other tenders with traditional American allies in the Far East, with possibly more realistic chances of winning.



As it stands they plan to purchase pre-production models for Lipetsk in 2013.



As it stands the F-35 volume production is quite a ways off, just like the PAK-FA. The F-35 is also an international project with production slots already allotted. It will be some time before it hits the open market.

Yes, but the F-35 is already in production trim, albeit at low-rate volumes. Lockheed Martin has gone on the record that they can meet Japan's deadline for an early F-35 delivery date in the 2016-17 timeframe IIRC probably because a number of partner nations may be deferring orders to a later date.

 

[wormhole]

KF-X is the name of the ongoing project for indigenous aircraft, the competition among other planes is KF-X III.

Thanks... although any of the four contenders purchased would outperform any indigenous design they do build.. perhaps the idea is for the latter to cost significantly less and be purchased in large enough quantities to be their primary workhorse. Also, there is the need to invigorate the industrial base, create jobs and cater top export customers.

More here-- http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/07/113_90150.html

comments from EADS, Boeing and LM but no Sukhoi.. so far.

 

[lucinator]

I think that if the South Koreans really become serious about the PAK-FA then the US might loosen restrictions on the export of the F-22 and restart production(something the us is apparently already mulling over).

 

[Feanor]

I think that if the South Koreans really become serious about the PAK-FA then the US might loosen restrictions on the export of the F-22 and restart production(something the us is apparently already mulling over).

Unlikely is putting it mildly.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Okay now this is getting fanciful. F-22 is not going to restart production and is not going to be sold to Korea. Australia and Japan both looked at it and it wasn't happening for them. The US looked at buying more for themselves and knocked it back.

Sk has its options as listed. There are many more than capable options. I don't know how avalible the F-35 is, the US might concider giving up some slots as may some european countries. However most participating members have aging frames and need it ASAP. SK has had ample opportunity to participate and plan ahead. Jumping the que I can't see being encouraged by the members who have done the hard yards. They took on the risk and the costs, they made intentions clear early on.

 

[wormhole]

Doesn't the Japanese constitution ban export of weapons systems?

Yes but it seems there can be exceptions to the rule, particularly if the weapon can be justified to be fulfilling a defensive role. Japan seems to be leaning toward acceding to US requests to OK sale of the jointly developed SM-3 to friendly countries.

 

[swerve]

yup they do

No, it does not!

I get tired of repeating this. I've posted it on this forum several times, & on other fora, together with links to the text of the Japanese constitution & the arms export policy.

The Japanese constitution says nothing whatsoever about the export of weapons.

Japan has laws regulating the export of arms & military equipment. Exports are legal, but require licences.

Since the 1960s, the general policy has been not to issue licences, giving rise to the mistaken idea that exports are totally banned, but there are a very few exceptions to the ban.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

No, it does not!

I get tired of repeating this. I've posted it on this forum several times, & on other fora, together with links to the text of the Japanese constitution & the arms export policy.

The Japanese constitution says nothing whatsoever about the export of weapons.

Japan has laws regulating the export of arms & military equipment. Exports are legal, but require licences.

Since the 1960s, the general policy has been not to issue licences, giving rise to the mistaken idea that exports are totally banned, but there are a very few exceptions to the ban.

So, why is the general policy to not issue licenses?
Why they dont want/dare export weapon systems?
The last thing i've heard about 'export' is the plan to deliver three patrolboats to Indonesia to support them in the war against piracy, a couple of years ago........

 

[swerve]

Google it. You'll find official explanations & more commentary than you could possibly read. Start with the Japanese ministry of foreign affairs (mfa.go.jp), which puts the official position online.