Pentagon to Cancel Comanche Helicopter

[Gremlin29]

Regarding UAV's. They are a great tool but we are many years away from their replacing manned aircraft. You can teach a monkey to fly these machines however it is situational awareness that is the most difficult skill to develop in military aviation. UAV's have no situational awareness and in all likelyhood never will to the extent of replacing manned tactical aircraft. Comanche was actually envisioned to operate as a hunter/scout team all rolled into one machine. The idea being that it would replace the old gunship/scout method of employment. AAR's in a Iraq are a very poor gauge to judge future operations on and this is a cyclical mistake the US continues to make. Now wether or not Comanche could have or would have lived up to it's expectations may never be realized however it was going to fill a void in Army aviation. As far as the stealthy remarks are concerned, you guys don't realize how quiet these newer multibladed designs are. I've been in FARP's and have had UH-60's and AH-64's hovering OGE 200 meters away and they couldn't be hear over the wind. At 140 knots and a scant 2 feet above the terrrain these aircraft are gone before you hear them.

The OH-58 is an old and underpowered piece of crap IMHO, and I've logged alot of hours in those things. The Delta model 58 was actually a stop gap solution aircraft that was scheduled for replacement by the Comanche. The real problem with the 58 is that it just hasn't the power to carry a meaningful load of ordanence and it never will be. Sure you can jam a gun pod or some 2.75 FFR's on those, but you are trading fuel for ordanence which means your are reducing the operational radius which is limited to begin with. You surely aren't going to perform deep recon or strike missions with a bird that has an operational radius of 50 nautical miles!

I'm still disappointed by this news, and for the record there is no alternative or substitute for what the Comanche promised to do.

 

[corsair7772]

Can say im surprised. Evr since the fall of the soviet union most of the military R&D and other projects were rendered useless like the F-22 which was designed in the face of the advanced aircraft the soviets were designing.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can say im surprised. Evr since the fall of the soviet union most of the military R&D and other projects were rendered useless like the F-22 which was designed in the face of the advanced aircraft the soviets were designing.

Not really true. The last innovative Russian aircraft was the Su47, which is an Su-37, which was an Su-32, which was an Su-27 modified off an american FSW CTD called the X-29.

That Su-47 was first conceived in approx 1988. It's a dud, looks nice, looks fancy but is absolutely orphaned.

The US and France are at least a generation to a gen and half ahead of anything currently being drawn up in Russia.

Coupled with that is the issue that Sukhoi have declared no interest in designing any future manned aircarft (new structure etc) as they see that the F-22 is too far ahead and that stealth UAV's are the next frontier.

The halcyon days of russian aircraft design are gone. Sulkhoi are in the process of signing partnership projects with both Boeing and Grumman (who was the initial jet designer of an FSW fighter) Grumman and Sukhoi had a co-operative contract in place in the late 1980's early 1990's (after the collapse of the Sov Union).

Brazil probably has a more robust airline manufacturing capability than Russia at the moment.

 

[Aussie Digger]

True Gremlin, but I talked about a new helicopter "like" the OH-58 in design and operation, not equivalent in performance. It's a shame to see any project that Billions of dollars have already been spent cancelled, but look what you'll be getting in return:

"The army also plans to buy a new version of the AH-64 Apache, known as Block III. Army officials Monday said this version will have all the advantages of the Comanche except stealthiness. The army will also:

accelerate the fielding of Aircraft Survivability Equipment technology to forces in Iraq and Afghanistan,
buy 303 new light utility helicopters to replace 422 UH-1 Hueys, which will be phased out,
buy 80 additional UH-60L Black Hawk utility helicopters above what had already been planned,
buy 25 new fixed-wing C-XX inter-theatre cargo planes to replace the C-23 Sherpa,
buy 20 CH-47 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters above what had already been planned,
fund a joint heavy-lift helicopter programme to replace all the army's cargo and heavy-lift helicopters by 2020, and
fund new plans for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs)". Seems like a pretty good deal to me, especially if the new recon helicopter build's on the OH-58's strengths and adds decent range and load carrying ability, plus survivability improvements...

 

[Red aRRow]

The US and France are at least a generation to a gen and half ahead of anything currently being drawn up in Russia.

I disagree gf. Maybe just the US in that sentence would have been ok but including France?? :help
The most advanced plane that France has to offer at this moment is the Dassault Rafale. Russian manufacturing lines may not be as robust now because of the lack of money and funding. However still the Russians manage to churn out beauts like the Mig 1.44 tech demonstrators goes to show that they have a more advanced capability which if combined with some money can be better than anything which Europe (atleast) has to offer.

 

[Gremlin29]

Hey Aussie Digger my comment was not pointed at you bro, hope there's no hard feelings.

The problem with the consulation prizes are numerous and appear to be not much more than hyperbole. Let me explain point for point:

accelerate the fielding of Aircraft Survivability Equipment technology to forces in Iraq and Afghanistan

These items should be standard issue to begin with and I've always felt that it was criminal to send aircraft to combat without them. Budget cuts and optomistic thinking is the reason they don't have these items to begin with. When we went to GW1 only 40% of our UH-60's were equipped with IR defusers on the engine exhaust which is perhaps IMHO the most important piece of countermeasures equipment a helicopter could possibly have. At any rate that statement makes it sound as if they've got some new goodies in development when in reallity this is equipment that should have been procurred with the aircraft in the first place. It's sorta like buying guns and not ammo if you ask me.

buy 303 new light utility helicopters to replace 422 UH-1 Hueys, which will be phased out

This is intersting, they plan to replace 422 medium lift aircraft with 303 light lift aircraft? This is what's known as doing more with less! I don't know what light aircraft they have in mind, nor do I understand why they would want to replace the UH-1's since they are reliable and proven designs. I'm wondering where the cost saving is there? UH-1's are already in the system, as is all the support and expertise. So replacing it with a less capable machine is totally stupid.

buy 80 additional UH-60L Black Hawk utility helicopters above what had already been planned

Okay so more UH-60's! That is good news. They will be needed for the new aviation Brigade that's being formed. These aren't extras, they are filling new positions.

buy 25 new fixed-wing C-XX inter-theatre cargo planes to replace the C-23 Sherpa

I remember when these heaps were crammed down the Army's throat back in the early 90's. It was quite a flap because they regular Army got 10 and the National Guard (or Reserves) got 10. Now the interesting thing is the Army actually fought against having them! They were dismayed that they were scheduled for delivery as there had never been a request for such an aircraft, nor was there a mission or need. Army Aviation needs to spend money on Sherpa's like they need to spend it on M1 tanks, totally rediculous! So why did they get the dumb things? Intestingly enough one of the Congressman on the Armed Services Sub-Committee hailed from the area in Virgina (IIRC) that was home to the company that was rebuilding the Sherpa's to be sold to the Army. Ahhhhh...that's why the Army needs them. :roll

buy 20 CH-47 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters above what had already been planned,
fund a joint heavy-lift helicopter programme to replace all the army's cargo and heavy-lift helicopters by 2020

Okay, last time I checked the CH-47 production line was shut down. They are rebuilding the old Charlie models into the new Delta model however that statement is misleading since it would sound like they are building new aircraft rather than retrofitting old obsolete units.

As far as a true Heavy Lift aircraft I have no idea what they have planned. Again Heavy Lift was something the Army chose to walk away from for a variety of reasons and I can't figure out why they would opt to go back into it. Not much to say about the UAV's, they are useful and will continue to improve and become more effective and capable.

At any rate I still think they dropped a good program for the sake of saving a few bucks that could have been saved elsewhere, perhaps with better accounting of their contractors working abroad (can you say Halliburton?) Don't get me wrong, I love the good old US of A but sometimes I think we are our own worst enemy!

 

[Aussie Digger]

I didn't take nan offence Gremlin and you don't have to explain the "doing more with less" theory to me, every Government department I've ever worked for here, follows that theory year in year out... Not sure if you know Gremlin, but the ADF has a project known as Air 9000. This is designed to rationalise our helicopter fleet (currently based on about 9 platforms) to 4-5 plaforms at most. The 2 contenders are the Euro NH-90 and the UH-60M Blackhawk (and Seahawk variants). It will be announced later this year. The NH-90 is widely regarded as being the front runner due to it's much greater capacity than the Blackhawk, being able to carry 20 "fully equipped" troops on tactical transport missions. If it wins, our fleet will be downsized platforms wise but will actually improve capability wise (ie: greater airlift with fewer platforms). Maybe this is what the US Army is intending with it's new Light Utility Helicopter? Less airframes and therefore cheaper maintenance costs, less pilots/ground crew that have to be trained etc, but greater overall capability?

 

[Awang se]

The question is, how the US going to compensate the canceled commanche. As stated earlier, they are the stealthy, hunter/scout Helo, but from my position here i don't see any other aircrafts in the US military that can replace this bird in term of mission capability. Using OH-58 as compensation is like a step back. even if they upgrade this Helo, it will never came anywhere near the commanche.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The US and France are at least a generation to a gen and half ahead of anything currently being drawn up in Russia.

I disagree gf. Maybe just the US in that sentence would have been ok but including France?? :help
The most advanced plane that France has to offer at this moment is the Dassault Rafale. Russian manufacturing lines may not be as robust now because of the lack of money and funding. However still the Russians manage to churn out beauts like the Mig 1.44 tech demonstrators goes to show that they have a more advanced capability which if combined with some money can be better than anything which Europe (atleast) has to offer.

I should have made my post clearer and more specific.

I think the US is a generation ahead of russia in stealth
I think France is probably a gneration ahead with networked TUAV.s and probably a half generation ahead of the russians in EW issues on fighter aircraft. The French definitely have the lead on hypersonics, australia currently leads on scramjets.

Russia has some excellent capability, but they are starting to paint themselves into a corner. They need money to keep their R&D alive in their aircraft industry, Mikoyan have been directed to assist Sukhoi in all future platforms development, so will not get any govt funding for any technology demonstraters - unless it is externally funded. Even if that is the case, the Russ Govt has blessed Sukhoi with the mantle of being the prime entity and managing entity for all future combat aircraft development. (much like what they did with Beriev and Illyushin when they were directed to work under Tuploev)

Russia will eventually have to start choosing between India and China, India won't continue to pump money into Russian R&D if they think that the Russians may onsell or include concepts into Chinese sales.

I think Russia is making a rod for its own back.

Hope this makes it clearer

 

[Gremlin29]

Well the Army announced some time ago the plan to weed out the airframes to get down to what they called "legacy aircraft" which included the UH-60, the AH-64, the CH-47 and the now cancelled RH-66. One thing they seem to insist on doing is reinventing the wheel. Now with fighter aircraft they can make them more maneuverable, incorporate stealth, and naturally enhance their weapons and sensors. Helicopters are a bit different and aside from being heavier than air don't have a whole heck of alot in common with airplanes. Physical limiatations prevent rotory winged aircraft from exceeding forward airspeeds of around 200 knots so they aren't going to get faster. Maneuverability is relative to the ship and it's intended mission however it's a given that a rigid articulated multibladed head will yield the maximum maneuverability. Avionics are avionics and weapons systems aren't much different.

Now let's examine the legacy aircraft and their predesessors. UH-60 and UH-1. I idea was that 1 UH-60 would replace 2 UH-1's. Never happened. The ratio ended up being 2 UH-60's replaced 3 UH-1's. They saved a thosand or so pilot slots and not much else. In fact the UH-60 requires more support and is less deployable. UH-1's could be jammed into the C5 and the C141 without taking them apart. Can't be done with the UH-60, it is a big deal to prep them for airlift and it takes time to take em apart and time to put back together. It also become obvious that some missions just couldn't be performed by the UH-60 to the same level of performance as the UH-1. Most medevac units switched back the UH-1's as they were quicker to launch and could get into much tighter LZ's. The Hawk is a fine machine but it never truely lived up to it's promise. It's possible that the money could have been better spent upgrading to the cheaper and more reliable Bell 412 which is the 4 bladed twin engined Huey that the Canadians operate. I've flown those and they are nice machines.

The AH-64 is a great gunship however it is no more capable in it's role with the US Army than the Super Cobra's the Marines operate. And the Cobra is more managable in flight, more deployable (same scenario as UH-60 vs UH-1) and alot cheaper. It can also fly without hydraulics and electrical, a feet the Apache can not lay claim to. How important is that? I've had 2 hydraulic failures in my career, thank god they were in the AH-1! When the bullets fly I'd prefer to be in something that can take a licking and keep on ticking!

CH-47, not much to say about these old soldiers other than they work, are proven and have been modernized. They will need replacing someday because of age and nothing more. The only bad thing about the CH-47 is that when it's not leaking transmission oil it's because it's out of transmission oil.

Don't know what they plan to do about the RH-66's. I guess the old OH-58 D's will have to soldier on for another 20 years!

I can see your point Aussie, but you can't get fewer serials with smaller aircraft, it's the other way around and a light helo will not carry the useful load the the UH-1 can. I think it boils down to spending money on new stuff even though the new stuff isn't much of an improvement and costs a heck of alot more.

As for your forces selection of the NH-90 (nice aircraft by the way) and the UH-60 I can not speak with much insight on the issue. I can see the wisdom in reducing the number of aircraft types no doubt about that. Both machines will do a fine job,....but have you guys considered the Bell 412??

 

[gf0012-aust]

I didn't take nan offence Gremlin and you don't have to explain the "doing more with less" theory to me, every Government department I've ever worked for here, follows that theory year in year out... Not sure if you know Gremlin, but the ADF has a project known as Air 9000. This is designed to rationalise our helicopter fleet (currently based on about 9 platforms) to 4-5 plaforms at most. The 2 contenders are the Euro NH-90 and the UH-60M Blackhawk (and Seahawk variants). It will be announced later this year. The NH-90 is widely regarded as being the front runner due to it's much greater capacity than the Blackhawk, being able to carry 20 "fully equipped" troops on tactical transport missions. If it wins, our fleet will be downsized platforms wise but will actually improve capability wise (ie: greater airlift with fewer platforms). Maybe this is what the US Army is intending with it's new Light Utility Helicopter? Less airframes and therefore cheaper maintenance costs, less pilots/ground crew that have to be trained etc, but greater overall capability?

Unfort the money is on the Blackhawks. Too many senior uniforms are arguing the compatability and interoperability issue.

The 90 is the better platform - but who knows, so many defence purchases in the last few months are now being made without going through proper independant procurement diligence that its not funny.

 

[Red aRRow]

Thanks for the insight Gremlin.
Anybody has any idea on what new platforms the U.S might be developing relating to rotary craft?
I mean after the cancellation of the comanche I don't see any other platform (rotary) which the U.S might be working on. I am sure they don't think UAV's would be conducting SAR operations as well as recon and/or battlefield awareness operations.

 

[Gremlin29]

There's nothing far enough along to mention. The last "new" helicopters the Army purchased were the TH-67's which were off the shelf Bell 206's (holy smokes a smart move!!).

 

[Frozen Hell]

Wouldn't there be a need to replace the Apaches and other attack copters some point down the line? Maybe in the future this program might be restarted because of this need?