Ode to the Flogger.

Boolag

New Member
I just found out recently that a local tattoist used to be a Night/ground attack jockey flying the Mig-23BN and briefly the Mig-27 with the east German airforce round 1987-89..
I asked him about the general manouvreability of the type + he reckoned they handled like a skateboard!!...Dunno if thats a good thing or not?!?

He mostly flew Mig-23BN's before converting to the Mig-27, in which he only flew twice before his mount disintergrated around him over the GDR..He said his units primary mission was Night interdiction + destruction of potential NATO bridge crossings.

I've always had an interest in the Mig-23/27 series..+ i reckon the Mig-23 Interceptor is quite a sexy looking aircraft!!

If anyone out there has any experience's flying in/with/or against this type( be it on exercise or whatever for the latter) -Put a post up, cos I'd like to hear what ya'll have to say bout the Flogger ,Good or Bad..I'd like to hear more about what experts have to say about it.:D

Cheers
Adam
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
Flogger was basically thought as machine for launching BVR Missiles, It was not like that of Legendary Mig-29.
But I never know why Many Aviation Lovers like Mig-29 more than any other Russian Fighter.
That kind of attraction is not with Su-27 or any other Fighter.

Another Russian bird which definitely should get credit is Mi-24 Hind GunShip.
 

boldeagle

New Member
MiG-23/27 "Flogger" and MiG-29 "Fulcrum"

Considering the MiG-23/27 "Flogger": just remember that Libya's "Qadaffi Duck" tried to send them up against the F-14 "Tomcat"...a really bad idea!:D I understand from folks who actually flew them that they also had a disturbing and disconcerting problem on landing, in that the landing gear tended to behave like a pogo stick, bouncing the aircraft down the tarmac in a fashion sometimes conducive to losing one's lunch...messy!:p: It was a Russian attempt to match the American F-14 "Tomcat" and F-111 "Aardvark" in the "swing wing" arena that just didn't make the grade. The SU-24 "Fencer" was a much better try at matching the F-111. The Russians never could really match the F-14.

As for the MiG-29 "Fulcrum": in simulation, it has great maneuverability and an awesome power to weight ratio! It also has some excellent passive sensors: one can track and shoot an American F-16 "Fighting Falcon", for instance, without lighting up the radar and revealing one's position, which is a not inconsiderable advantage, as has been demonstrated by the "Fulcrum" drivers "inherited" by the German Luftwaffe from the former East German Air Force. On top of that, the MiG-29 is a very attractive aircraft, with almost "classic" lines and an extremely diverse and significant weapons load: a truly worthy successor to the MiG-21 "Fishbed" which "soldiered on" for so long in the Warsaw Pact Air Forces, and is still found (after 50 years!) in more Third World air forces than one could count.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Boolag said:
I asked him about the general manouvreability of the type + he reckoned they handled like a skateboard!!...Dunno if thats a good thing or not?!?
That is definetly not a good thing. He meant it flew like a rock.
 

Rich

Member
The MIG-29 is one of my most favorite aircraft. It was/is a handsome bird. The MIG-23 took quite a thumping when it flew against the IAF and while in the hands of the Arab air forces. It could be argued #1 the Arabs didnt know what they were doing and #2 the export MIG-23 had pretty limited defense systems.

Still they made piles of the things and the airplane had pretty good performance numbers. You have to wonder if it would have had better kill ratios if flown by better pilots.
 

LancerMc

New Member
There were much more up to date versions of the MiG-23 set to come into service but when the Russian AF decided to retire all single engine fighters and attack aircraft in the early 90's all the programs stopped. These more modern MiG-23's were set to have much more modern radar and missiles, and thus probably making it a premier interceptor. I am sure at low level and with wings full forward a MiG-23 could turn quite well. Thats probably the reason it was developed into the MiG-27.

I don’t doubt the MiG-29 is a great aircraft and the latest variant with thrust vectoring nozzles can do a great display. Though I have heard the quality of the aircraft is lacking and that many of the parts of aircraft are inferior and low grade. This has caused the aircraft to have a short range and low service life period.
 

ajay_ijn

New Member
yeah Mig-29 always have problems with service life. But when Mig realized that Cold war is over and they have to live only on exports, they started increasing airframe life of newer versions.
Mig-29K for Indian Navy has 4000hrs of Service life. And to avoid spare problem, A Spares maintainence and overhaul facility is being built in India. So India can just manage to fly these Migs. Indian Airforce suffered worst of all when it came to Supply of Russian spares.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
ajay_ijn said:
yeah Mig-29 always have problems with service life.
Do they have anymore problems than the run of the mill aircraft? Examples or outside commentary of the subject would be appreciated.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The Flogger existed in several different versions.
The ones we saw most often in the Mediterranean were MIG23 E&F export versions and they were curiously most used in air-to-air role as pure fighters even if they lacked any better or longer-range missiles than AA7s.
The plane was conceived more for air-to-ground operations and in that role it could fly very low on the horizon for impressive ranges (one arrived all the way to Calabria in Southern Italy after taking off from Benghazi in Libya) and had a wide array of bombs, rockets and TV guided missiles

cheers
 

Boolag

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
Cheers heaps for the input fella's..I guess one final question must be asked: Are any floggers still in active service anywhere:confused:
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Boolag said:
Cheers heaps for the input fella's..I guess one final question must be asked: Are any floggers still in active service anywhere:confused:
Current Operators

Algeria - 29 MiG-23BN/MS/UB, Angola - 32 MiG-23M/UB, Bulgaria MiG-23BN/MLD/UB, Cuba - 69 MiG-23MF/ML/UB, Ethiopia - 32 MiG-23BN/UB, India - 108 MiG-23ML/BN/UB, Kazakhstan - 100 MiG-23M/UB, Libya - 130 MiG-23MS/BN/UB, North Korea - 56 MiG-23ML/UB, Syria - 146 MiG-23MS/MF/ML//UB, Turkmenistan - 230 MiG-23M/UB, Yemen - 25 MiG-23BN/UB, Zimbabwe - 3 MiG-23M/UB.
 

boldeagle

New Member
Flogger Still In Service

According to "Aviation Leak" ;) in their "Inventory" Issue (I believe that was 16 Jan 2006), there are still 561 MiG-23 "Flogger" (all versions) and 34 MiG-27 "Flogger" (this was the definitive, "ground attack" version) still in service around the world. This would total 595 "Flogger" of all versions (both MiG-23 and MiG-27) still in service all over the globe. As I recall, besides India, Cuba, North Korea and Sri Lanka, most are in various Middle Eastern and African nations, and a few still "soldier on" in the "Independent republics" that spun out of the break up of the former Soviet Union, such as Belarus and the Muslim "republics" in the south of the former Soviet Union.

As a point of comparison, I believe the same issue of "Aviation Week & Space Technology" magazine listed an even greater number of MiG-21 "Fishbed" (of all versions) still in service around the world... :D
 

Boolag

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
Finally, - I found a relativley comprehensive combat record for the Flogger-


"Western and Russian aviation historians usually differ in respect to the MiG-23 combat record, in part to the bias they practice for their respective national aircraft industries. They also usually accept claims that go along with their respective political views.

The first MiG-23s to see combat were export variants with many limitations. For example, the MiG-23MS lacked such a basic system as the radar warning receiver. In addition, compared to the MiG-21, the aircraft was mechanically complex and expensive. Early export variants also lacked many "war reserve modes" in their radars, making them vulnerable against ECM, which the Israelis were especially proficient at. Nonetheless, according to Soviet/Russian historians, the MiG-23MS did achieve kills. One of these victories was achieved on June 11, 1982, when two MiG-23MS (pilots Heyrat and Zabi) brought down with two AA-2 Atolls an Israeli F-4. Both MiG-23MS pilots were then shot down.

The MiG-23MS/MF took part in the 1982 Lebanon War. Israeli reports (which have been endorsed by the majority of Western historians) claim that during the period of intense fighting from June 6 to 11 of 1982, 85 Syrian aircraft were shot down in air combat by the Israelis with no Israeli losses. At least 30 of these aircraft were reported by Israeli sources to be MiG-23s.


According to Soviet/Russian sources, the Syrians lost only six MiG-23MFs and four downgraded export MiG-23MS fighters during that period in June over the Bekaa Valley, while the rest of the MiG-23s shot down by the Israelis were fourteen ground-attack variant MiG-23BNs. At the same time, Syrian MiG-23s managed to shoot down at least five F-16s, two F-4Es, and a BQM-34 unmanned reconnaissance plane. These are some of the Syrian MiG-23 kills as described in a Soviet/Russian source.

On June 7, 1982, three MiG-23MFs (pilots Hallyak, Said, Merza) attacked a group of F-16s. Captain Merza detected the F-16s at a distance of 25 km and brought down two F-16s with R-23/AA-7s Apex missiles (one from 9km, and another within the distance of 7 km or 8 km) before he himself was shot down. On June 8, 1982, two MiG-23MFs again met with F-16s. Major Hau's MiG-23 detected an F-16 at a distance of 21km and shot it down with an R-23 from a distance of 7km. Again, the Syrian pilot was himself shot down by an AIM-9 Sidewinder, fired from another F-16. On June 9, 1982, two MiG-23MFs, piloted by Dib and Said, attacked a group of F-16s. Dib brought down an F-16 from a distance of 6km with an R-23, but was then shot down, most likely by a Sidewinder.

Soviet sources state that three Israeli F-15s and one F-4 were shot down on October 1983 by the newly delivered MiG-23MLs, with no loses since then. Western historians deny these kills and believe that Syria lost at least two MiG-23MLs to Israeli F-15s in 1985.

The MiG-23 took part in the Iran-Iraq War, but its air combat results with the Iraqi Air Force are difficult to determine. Cuban MiG-23MLs and South African Mirage F1s had several encounters during Angolan War, one of which resulted in a Mirage being lost after it was damaged by an R-60 missile fired by a Cuban MiG-23ML. The South African pilot barely managed to save his life after the Mirage suffered several malfunctions that forced him to crash land, severely damaging the aircraft and causing it to be written off.

Soviet MiG-23MLDs and Pakistani F-16s clashed a few times during the Soviet-Afghan War. One F-16 was lost in 1987 with the circumstances of the loss not clear. Pakistan insists that it was a friendly fire incident, but it could have been destroyed by a MiG-23 as the Soviets/Russians have claimed. A year later, Soviet MiG-23MLDs, using R-24s, downed two Iranian AH-1J Cobras that intruded into Afghani airspace.


Two Libyan MiG-23s (MS variants) were shot down by US F-14s in the Gulf of Sidra incident in 1989. During the Persian Gulf War, the USAF reported to have downed eight Iraqi MiG-23s with F-15s."

+ this might interest those MiG-29 fans amongst you and highlights the Pilot skill Vs technology argument.-

"The MiG-23 was the Soviet Air Force's Top Gun equivalent aggressor from the late 1970s to the late 1980s. It proved to be a difficult opponent for early MiG-29 variants flown by inexperienced pilots. Exercises showed that when well flown, a MiG-23MLD could achieve favorable kill ratios against the MiG-29 in mock combat by using hit and run tactics and not engaging the MiG-29s in close combat dogfights. Usually the aggressor MiG-23MLDs had a shark mouth painted on the nose just aft of the radar dome and many of these were piloted by Soviet-Afghan War veterans. In the late 1980s, these aggressor MiG-23s were replaced by MiG-29s, also featuring shark mouths on their noses."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG-23
:lam
 

Boolag

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
And from the same source-

"The Dutch pilot, Leon Van Maurer, who had more than 1200 hours flying F-16s, flew against MiG-23ML Flogger Gs from air bases in Germany and the US as part of NATO's aerial mock combat training with Soviet equipment. He concluded that the MiG-23ML has superiority on the vertical plane over early F-16 variants, is just slightly inferior to the F-16A on the horizontal plane, and has superior BVR capability.

The Israelis tested a MiG-23MLD that defected from Syria and found that it had better acceleration than the F-16 and F-18.

Another MiG-23 evaluation finding in the US and Israel reports was that the MiG-23 has a HUD that doubles as a radarscope, allowing the pilot to keep his eyes focused at infinity and work with his radar. It also allows the Soviets to dispense with the radarscope on the MiG-23. This feature was carried over into the MiG-29, though in that aircraft a CRT was carried on the upper right corner that can act as a radarscope as well. Western opinions about this "head up radarscope" are mixed. The Israelis were impressed, but an American F-16 pilot criticizes it as "sticking a transparent map in front of the HUD" and not providing a three-dimensional presentation that will accurately cue a pilot's eyes to look for a fighter as it appears in a particular direction."


"the Mikoyan bureau decided to concentrate all their efforts on the MiG-29 program rather than on the MiG-23MLDG and MiG-23MDL subvariants that were equipped with helmet mounted sights and halted further work on their production; nevertheless a helmet mounted sight is offered as part of the MiG-23-98 upgrade. There were reports about the MiG-23MLD being capable of firing the AA-10 Alamo beyond its firing experimental tests however it seems only Angola's MiG-23-98 are capable of doing it. A MiG-23 was used to test and fire the AA-11, AA-10 and AA-12 air to air missiles during their early flight and firing trials."
 
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