Need to train Afghans to fight?

essai ung

New Member
Hi team; this is my first post and it was prompted by some questions I had when I read a recent column by Thomas Friedman entitled, "What's second Prize."

He asks the question, "Why do we have to recruit and train our allies, the Afghan Army, to fight? That is like someone coming to you with a plan to recruit and train Brazilian boys to play soccer."


On the surface this sounds like a compelling argument. But dig a little deeper and you realize there is a difference between warlord/tribal factions and having a professionally trained standing army or security apparatus. The former relies heavily on the personality of individual leaders; perhaps why in the absence of a central government the country has been splintered into competing tribal entities for years. The latter, however, provides the potential for a sustainable system of security.

Consider the difference in America between our own forces under the Department of Defense versus the vigilante, volunteer self-described militia in some of our states. On the one hand you have a system in place supported by the full treasure and backing of the federal government. A system that takes in new recruits, molds them to meet specific standards and teaches them the most effective tactics and techniques to wage warfare. This system provides for housing, food, pay and a means for promotion; motivation. None of these are attributes found in a militia-type system.

The argument doesn’t account for the fact that Taliban insurgents DO go through training; although perhaps not as exacting as those taught under a professional army. But nonetheless someone is teaching them how to use weapons and build IED's.

I remember watching a feature on CBS news where they followed the progress of training some Afghan raw recruits. It seemed pathetic; the recruits I saw brought new meaning to the term "green" trooper. Maybe fighting is in their blood, but likely it has to be cultivated through training and motivation.

And in the end, this is why I find Friedman's other arguments in the article compelling. Success or failure depends on motivation. It's clear to me that American support for the war is not sustainable; or at least sustainable for long enough to make a difference in defeating a taliban insurgency and putting something in place that we would recognize as democratic government. Try explaining to the American voting public that to be successful we would need to be in Afghanistan for another 12 years at the cost of thousands more American soldiers and billions of dollars. It's clear to me that we don't have that kind of staying power.

I think I would rather focus our blood and treasure beefing up our border security and counter terrorism capabilities.

I hate losing; just like any red-blooded American. But there comes a point when you can repeat a bad strategy or change and find a new way to win.

What do you guys think?
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Can't train an army to fight when one doesn't know how to fight in the first instance.

There is a difference between tribal warfare and conventional warfare.

There is also a difference between tackling an insurgency and bringing down a taliban government.

Afghanistan is an insurgency where the opposition ie taliban have decades of experience handling technologically superior opponents. The problem is like Vietnam, the US command hasn't got a full grip on how to handle the situation even if its technology is far superior to the previous Soviet occupants.

Unlike Iraq where the people are used to a governing apparatus, Afghanistan represents a different kind of governance constraint. In Iraq, the US was eventually forced to take back ex-governing people into the governance fold. They couldn't do that with Afghans.

It is easy to say build up the Afghans to let them take care of themselves. But the US coalition already faces problems suppressing the insurgents. How much time would the Afghans need to reach the level of the US coalition.

Taking a sectoral approach is the logical move. The problem with tribal warfare is that you can let afghans from one tribe take control over another's area. This complicates matters.

Eventually, US and Afghanistan may have to accept that a balkanisation strategy in Afghanistan might be a better solution. The northern alliance can probably handle its territory better and would be more determined if it were their homeland instead of some centralised puppet government making corrupt self serving decisions on its behalf.

Carving out sectors would be tricky and would not be easily accepted by the Pashtun majority. But reality is that the Afghans have always had their sectoral differences even when the Taliban was in charge.

There are pros and cons. It is likely sectors would be made easier for Iran to infiltrate. Multi independent states increase the risk of conflict eg serbia-kosovo etc. On the plus side, newly independent regimes might owe at least some loyalty before turning.

A possible compromise would be a federation system but that would dilute the sectoral incentive for defending their own areas.

In a heavily religious society and with Obama timelines, it may be hobson's choice. Either instil separation so the problem is lessened or accept the bigger risk that Afghanistan may require re-intervention on as large a scale at some point of time. Re-intervention will face significant and buoyed resistance. No easy choices.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Carving out Afghanistan into separate states will not be possible, The Sunni militias whose support the Americans rely on would go beserk. Hell even every single civilised city dweller will rise up in protest, The Afghan govt will crumble and the Americans will find themselves in a situation which is thousand times worse.

Weasel is right saying that Afghanistan and Iraq are in totally different conditions. Iraq has always had a stable govt. Its people are used to following laws and being civilized. same cannot be said for Afghanis. Most of the Afghani men dont like taking orders from any body even their own Freakin' govt. especially the Tribesmen. You have to see most Tribal elders and men are like kings in their own households and communities and they consider any central govt a challenge and threat to their power base. They love being independant.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If by "fight" you mean "operate in large modern army formations, with sophisticated equipment, modern combined arms tactics and strategy...etc" then I think you already know the answer.

...

But IMO, using the "train Brazilian boys to play soccer" as an analogy for the ANA is off by a wide margin.

The big difference being that Brazilian kids are highly-motivated to WANT to play in a soccer team.

The Afghans joining the ANA do so for many reasons but I suspect motivation to fight and die for a cause is probably not one of them.

To put it bluntly, the ANA is the military force for a puppet government set up by a foreign invader/occupier (I don't know the polite term). Usually, you don't find much motivation in such circumstances so the ANA is guaran-damn-teed to fall apart as soon as the Americans leave.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Unless the ANA can turn itself into a well funded mercenary force, with whoever happens to be in power in Afghan footing the bill.
 

justone

Banned Member
Chino said:
The Afghans joining the ANA do so for many reasons but I suspect motivation to fight and die for a cause is probably not one of them.

To put it bluntly, the ANA is the military force for a puppet government set up by a foreign invader/occupier (I don't know the polite term). Usually, you don't find much motivation in such circumstances so the ANA is guaran-damn-teed to fall apart as soon as the Americans leave.
Right now U.S. units are fighting alone side Afghan units this is where you really get good training and you can find out what really going on with ANA. The ANA was put together from scatch so getting the ANA to be good fighting force requires some times it won't come overnight. Not all of the ANA with fall apart as soon as the Americans leave. Several highly trained unit will stay intact. The ANA has not growth at fast paced because the heavy screening that done on the new rescruit. One thing when training the ANA you have to be careful of Afghan culture if you play with this you're setting yourself up for failure. Islam is going to be motivating factor in the ANA if its use the right way. You can make specialize unit like Revoluntionary Guard who is motive by Religion cause all ANA soldiers are muslims. In other word reverse back what the Taliban are doing and use it against them. The Taliban uses the religion to its fullest to get recruits and they fight hard and willin to die. I look at it this way if you don't get them motivated you don't have a Army.
 
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Belesari

New Member
Alot of you are selling tem short. There are alot of reasons why they are having problems. Most of it is a cultural thing. Dear god we are having to teach the officers and men to lay prone to avoid the bullets-you know those things that kill you.

Alot of them have the WILL and balls to fight they just lack the proper mindset and such.

I'll try and see if i cant find someone who is training them to tell you whats what.
 

IfElseReturn

New Member
Hello everybody
Trained militants will not be able to fight insurgency in Afghanistan with poor technology and manner. Afghans join the legal army for money and food. I'm more than sure that taliban will take the control once we pull our troops out.
This is what I saw in my 1st Afghanistan tour.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Hello everybody
Trained militants will not be able to fight insurgency in Afghanistan with poor technology and manner. Afghans join the legal army for money and food. I'm more than sure that taliban will take the control once we pull our troops out.
This is what I saw in my 1st Afghanistan tour.
Trained militants??????????????:confused:
 

IfElseReturn

New Member
Sorry for the typo error I was writing via smartphone. Let's say Afghan "soldiers". They cannot even do push up, pull up, sit up or basic first aid.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the typo error I was writing via smartphone. Let's say Afghan "soldiers". They cannot even do push up, pull up, sit up or basic first aid.
It is against forum rules to insult the military personnel of any country.

Do not disrespect military personnel of other countries. DefenceTalk.com considers them dedicated professionals who put their lives on the line for their motherland.

http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php
 

Locarnus

New Member
It is against forum rules to insult the military personnel of any country.

Do not disrespect military personnel of other countries. DefenceTalk.com considers them dedicated professionals who put their lives on the line for their motherland.

http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php
Just for understanding, where do you see the insult? :confused:

@ topic:
Everyone can "fight", but the means and results differ, based on many variables.
One of them is eg, that it is a difference to fight on the guerillia side compared to the "regular army" side.
 

IfElseReturn

New Member
It is against forum rules to insult the military personnel of any country.

Do not disrespect military personnel of other countries. DefenceTalk.com considers them dedicated professionals who put their lives on the line for their motherland.
These are my own observations from Afghanistan. What insult are you talking about? I'm just saying that training in western style won't help them much to cease the insurgency.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the typo error I was writing via smartphone. Let's say Afghan "soldiers". They cannot even do push up, pull up, sit up or basic first aid.
The Afghan Army might not be as highly trained as many of the militaries in the world but "can't even do push ups, sit ups" - seriously isn't that going a bit too far!
 

Locarnus

New Member
I opened a new thread about information and spin control, based on the leaking of 92,000 documents about the Afghanistan war.

The link to the thread is:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/military-defense/art-war-information-spin-control-10492/

I will post the links in here as well because of their relevance for this threads topic about the state of the Afghan army. The documents may also be leaked fully by WikiLeaks in the near future.

NYTimes
Inside the Fog of War: Reports From the Ground in Afghanistan

Guardian
Afghanistan war logs: Massive leak of secret files exposes truth of occupation | World news | The Guardian

SPIEGEL
Enthüllung brisanter Kriegsdokumente: Die Afghanistan-Protokolle - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik


EDIT:
There is another thread specifically about possible strategies for Afghanistan:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/military-defense/what-strategy-can-we-use-win-afganistan-8861-9/

It would be nice to keep the threads largely on topic, although that might not be fully possible due to their relatedness.
 
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