Iran Invasion soon ?

colay

New Member
I don't see a nuke-armed Iran suddenly becoming a more responsible geopolitical actor, I see it being emoldened to continue it's past behavior with a greater assurance that the West will hesitate to meddle with them.

I think an Arab bomb will become a very real option for some countries should Iran go nuclear.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I don't see a nuke-armed Iran suddenly becoming a more responsible geopolitical actor, I see it being emoldened to continue it's past behavior with a greater assurance that the West will hesitate to meddle with them.
And will other countries become more 'responsible' towards Iran or will they continue with past behaviour in trying to sideline and subvert Iran and ignore the need for the Iranians to protect their strategic interests?? Any country will react in a certain way and will take steps to defend its national interests and to spread its influence in a region where it has had a long presence and which is part of its backyard, Iran is no different.

I think an Arab bomb will become a very real option for some countries should Iran go nuclear.
We constantly keep hearing this arguement but which countries exactly? Those who might want a bomb can't afford it and those that can afford it don't need it..... Assuming that those who can afford it, want to get it, who do they turn to to get access to the technology?
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Those who might want a bomb can't afford it and those that can afford it don't need it
Neither Pakistan nor Noth Korea could really afford nuclear weapons...yet they have them. And Libya might have gotten them if Muamar al-Qadhafi hadn't had second thoughts.

Nuclear weapons have been shown that they are goals in and of themselves far beyond the costs.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Neither Pakistan nor Noth Korea could really afford nuclear weapons...yet they have them. And Libya might have gotten them if Muamar al-Qadhafi hadn't had second thoughts.

Nuclear weapons have been shown that they are goals in and of themselves far beyond the costs.
Pakistan and North Korea started their programmes decades ago. Both also face geo-political challenges that are completely diifferent to what the Arabs face, both have different threat perceptions and both are in a different 'neighbourhood'. Also, we tend to overlook the fact that it isn't the 1990's anymore, one can't just hop on a plane with a briefcase of cash to Kazakstan in the hope of buying nuclear shells and one can't pick up a phone and call the AQ Khan network anymore. In recent times it has become much harder to covertly obtain the needed technology.
 
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My2Cents

Active Member
This is an arguement that we constantly hear about and one that is used by the U.S. as an excuse for possible strikes on Iran. Which Arab country apart from Saudi Arabia can afford the billions needed to create a bomb in the first place? As long as Saudi Arabia is under the protective umbrella of the U.S. military, as are the Gulf States, why would they want the bomb and assuming they did, who would provide the technology - certainly not Pakistan as 'help' from the Khan network is no longer available. North Korea is a possibility but the chances of Uncle Sam not finding out about it and not taking steps to prevent it by pressuring the Saudis or taking other measures such as intercepting the aircraft or vessels involved are almost nil.
You make a number of debatable assumptions here.
  1. That the US is perceived as a reliable ally by Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states.
    Does the protective umbrella really exist when it starts raining Iranian weapons? US pressure against acquiring nukes or intercepting the aircraft or vessels involved will backfire without the belief that the US protective umbrella is reliable. The question could be what can the US provide as iron clad guarantees. The usual means to achieve the guarantees would be by stationing a large quantity US troops in the country, like in South Korea or Europe as part of NATO, so as to virtually guarantee US casualties immediately at the start of hostilities to create a public demand for response. However the current drawdown of US troop strength makes the necessary forces unavailable, and the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia is apparently unacceptable to the general population of both countries besides.
  2. That the Khan network is/was the only available source of nuclear technology.
    Frankly he looks more and more like the front man who took the fall for the Pakistani military. Also, much of Saddam’s nuclear technology documentation is unaccounted for, along with the scientists and engineers that produced it.
  3. That the only way to acquire nuclear weapons is to build and entire nuclear industry, and probably the missile technology to deliver tham as well.
    While it does not appear to have happened yet, nuclear tipped missiles could be bought in a government-to-government transaction with enough of the proper currency, not necessarily financial. The Pakistani government is one possibility for a cash purchase (Note that is a Sunni to Sunni transaction, against a common foe, Shia Iran.), but for the right diplomatic concessions China, and even Israel could be possible sources. But only after Iran has a demonstrated capacity. One thing you can be sure of, if Saudi Arabia does decide it really needs the nukes, they will be desperate.
 

Bastian

New Member
if Saudi Arabia decided to make a nuclear weapon, this will put it at odd with its ally and neighbour. First of all the US, Israel, and EU would and will be against it and they will try everything they can to prevent Saudi Arabia becoming nuclear armed country. It will also disturb its fellow arab neighbours especially Egypt. Egypt have the largest military in africa and the arab world (wikipedia) and have considerable influence in the region, they are considered as the strongest arab nation (mostly for their past war with Israel) and with Saudi Arabia becoming a nuclear armed country, Egypt would've lost significant power in the region, which will put the pressure for Egypt to pursue nuclear weapon program thus starting the nuclear race in the middle east. As for how would US and EU prevent that is uncertain. They certainly wouldn't dare to put sanctions on the world's largest oil producer as they did with Iran, and a military intervention would've make a bad impression in the Arab world, which will benefit Iran.
 

the concerned

Active Member
Hasen't Saudi Arabia already got irbm's from china maybe they don't need a nuclear response but a more modern land-land missile system could render all Iranian naval and airforce bases along the persian gulf vulnerable to atttack if Iran adopts a aggressive posture towards Saudi arabia.As much as people go on about what Iran could do as a counter attack how could they respond if all these bases are destroyed which the US could do very quickly.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
You make a number of debatable assumptions here.
  1. That the US is perceived as a reliable ally by Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states.


  1. Debatable? The facts speak for themselves.

    For the past few decades Saudi has been under the military umbrella of the U.S. Irrespective of how the Saudis and other Gulf states 'perceive' the U.S., the fact remains that they rely on the U.S. for regime survival and external security. The seeds of this strategic relationship was sown following FDRs meeting with King Saud in 1945 and during the Cold War this relationship grew in importance. This strategic relationship - despite deep political differences - benefits both countries and is still in place today. Despite its shift in focus to the Asia Pacific region, the U.S. is still maintaining its presence in the Middle East and until this changes, the Saudis have no reason to resort to something as drastic as getting nukes.

    Also, much of Saddam’s nuclear technology documentation is unaccounted for, along with the scientists and engineers that produced it.
    And you're suggesting that the documentation and scientists are hidden and are just waiting for the right time for a willing buyer to emerge? If I recall correctly, the testimonies of Iraqi scientists who were debriefed/interrogated by the Americans and the IAEA indicate that the bulk of most the vital documentation relating to the design and manufacturing of WMDs was first hidden and later destroyed on Saddams orders. Some were also smuggled out by scientists who fled Iraq.

    . [*] That the Khan network is/was the only available source of nuclear technology. Frankly he looks more and more like the front man who took the fall for the Pakistani military. Also, much of Saddam’s nuclear technology documentation is unaccounted for, along with the scientists and engineers that produced it.
    Irrespective of whether Khan was a front man or was acting on his own, Pakistan no longer can be relied upon as a source of nuclear technology. The Pakistanis realise the danger this created for them and understand that whatever short terms benefits that can be derived from selling technology is outweighed by the long term negative effects upon their country. And yes, the Khan network was the main source of technology in the past. Apart from North Korea, there was nobody else.....

    [*] That the only way to acquire nuclear weapons is to build and entire nuclear industry, and probably the missile technology to deliver tham as well. While it does not appear to have happened yet, nuclear tipped missiles could be bought in a government-to-government transaction with enough of the proper currency, not necessarily financial. The Pakistani government is one possibility for a cash purchase (Note that is a Sunni to Sunni transaction, against a common foe, Shia Iran.), but for the right diplomatic concessions China, and even Israel could be possible sources. But only after Iran has a demonstrated capacity. One thing you can be sure of, if Saudi Arabia does decide it really needs the nukes, they will be desperate.
Again you're making the assumption - based on past history - that Pakistan will again be a source of technology or missiles and will repeat the same mistake it previously made, despite such a move being highly detrimental to Pakistan's national interests - not to mention the fact that it still needs U.S. financial aid and diplomatic support on the world stage.

With regards to the Sunni inter cooperation, why are you assuming in the first place that Saudi and Iran even consider Iran a 'foe'? They may be long time rivals, have jostled for power and influence and have conflicting interests but both countries do not consider each other as 'foes'. Saudi and the rest of the Arab states may still deep harbour distrust and fear against the Iranians but the geo-political situation is way different than it was in the 1980's or the 1990's, the Iranians are no longer calling for the Arab masses to overthrow their 'corrupt' and 'decadent' rulers.The Saudis may welcome strikes on Iran but they do not want to see regime change in Iran caused by Western military intervention and they do not want to see Iran's infrastructure devastated, the way Iraq's was by an air campaign, as this will create instability that will affect the Arabs - they have seen the mess that was created in Iraq.
 
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Sua Sponte

New Member
... War equals money especially for them.
Must I remind you that previous conflicts have been one of the main catalysts for (potential) recession?
Surely you do not believe that full scale war is healthy fro the economy? The war in Iraq has cost us nearly 50mln USD a week on effective operational costs and that's not even including Afghanistan and several green zones. Indirectly because of that, the U.S. found itself lending money from a former enemy; China a couple of years ago.
Even in WW2. The entire country was rationing steel and other resources in order to be able to supply our troops with much needed provisions, weapons and ordnance. Hell, one of the Warner Brothers was scavenging his own studios and picking up every nail and other piece of iron he could lay his eyes on.

No, wars cost money, resources and unfortunately many lives as well. The only up side (if any) is when everyone gets to go home again...
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Debatable? The facts speak for themselves.

For the past few decades Saudi has been under the military umbrella of the U.S. Irrespective of how the Saudis and other Gulf states 'perceive' the U.S., the fact remains that they rely on the U.S. for regime survival and external security. The seeds of this strategic relationship was sown following FDRs meeting with King Saud in 1945 and during the Cold War this relationship grew in importance. This strategic relationship - despite deep political differences - benefits both countries and is still in place today. Despite its shift in focus to the Asia Pacific region, the U.S. is still maintaining its presence in the Middle East and until this changes, the Saudis have no reason to resort to something as drastic as getting nukes.
The past history is good, but only the future is all that important. But this is the era of the Reset, the defense draw down, and the Re-alignment, so the question is not how did the US do for the last 50 years, but what can and will it be willing to do after 2020?

If they are not confident that the US will still be capable of defending them after 2020, then the past is irrelevant.
And you're suggesting that the documentation and scientists are hidden and are just waiting for the right time for a willing buyer to emerge? If I recall correctly, the testimonies of Iraqi scientists who were debriefed/interrogated by the Americans and the IAEA indicate that the bulk of most the vital documentation relating to the design and manufacturing of WMDs was first hidden and later destroyed on Saddams orders. Some were also smuggled out by scientists who fled Iraq.
Most of the Iraqi scientists and engineers who worked were never identified. So naturally we don’t know where they ended up or what they are doing now. Hopefully we identified and found the critical ones. Personally, I think a lot moved to Syria and Libya, and probably some eventually to Iran. Any remaining in Syria are probably shopping hard for a place to move to.

Was it all truly vital material? In any manufacturing enterprise 97+% of the physical documentation is unrelated to design, or additional copies. Saddam would certainly have wanted to destroy the production records and the records of any personnel that would allow the Americans and the IAEA to reconstruct what and how much he had done, but the vital design files would have fit in a large truck, or a couple hard drives. So we don’t know how much of the knowledge needed the ones who fled took with them.
Irrespective of whether Khan was a front man or was acting on his own, Pakistan no longer can be relied upon as a source of nuclear technology. The Pakistanis realise the danger this created for them and understand that whatever short terms benefits that can be derived from selling technology is outweighed by the long term negative effects upon their country. And yes, the Khan network was the main source of technology in the past. Apart from North Korea, there was nobody else.....

Again you're making the assumption - based on past history - that Pakistan will again be a source of technology or missiles and will repeat the same mistake it previously made, despite such a move being highly detrimental to Pakistan's national interests - not to mention the fact that it still needs U.S. financial aid and diplomatic support on the world stage.
Pakistan made the mistake of underestimating the profit/loss ratio, but they will not necessarily be repeating that if they sell to the Saudi’s, or a consortium build around them and other Sunni Gulf States. Increasing the profit by a couple orders of magnitude could eliminate the need for US financial support.

North Korea doesn’t have a proven product to sell, so they are out. But the Chinese seem willing to sell anything to anyone, if the price is high enough.
With regards to the Sunni inter cooperation, why are you assuming in the first place that Saudi and Iran even consider Iran a 'foe'? They may be long time rivals, have jostled for power and influence and have conflicting interests but both countries do not consider each other as 'foes'. Saudi and the rest of the Arab states may still deep harbour distrust and fear against the Iranians but the geo-political situation is way different than it was in the 1980's or the 1990's, the Iranians are no longer calling for the Arab masses to overthrow their 'corrupt' and 'decadent' rulers.The Saudis may welcome strikes on Iran but they do not want to see regime change in Iran caused by Western military intervention and they do not want to see Iran's infrastructure devastated, the way Iraq's was by an air campaign, as this will create instability that will affect the Arabs - they have seen the mess that was created in Iraq.
The Iranians are no longer calling for the Arab masses to overthrow their 'corrupt' and 'decadent' rulers? That’s a new one. When did the change take place? Is it internal, or just in the western ‘press’?

The Saudi’s are probably more worried about an air campaign like in Libya, which is probably inevitable if the western powers feel forced to go after the Iranian nuclear facilities, than they are about one ending in a ground campaign like in Iraq, which is totally unlikely.

A nuclear armed Iran is very different politically and strategically from one that is not. If give Iran the ability to open any conflict with a decapitation strike, so that ,even if the US intervention kicks them back into Iran, there will be a regime change in Saudi Arabia, or whoever they target. That should worry the House of Saud more than simply the ability of Iran to wage war on Saudi Arabia itself.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
The past history is good, but only the future is all that important. But this is the era of the Reset, the defense draw down, and the Re-alignment, so the question is not how did the US do for the last 50 years, but what can and will it be willing to do after 2020?

If they are not confident that the US will still be capable of defending them after 2020, then the past is irrelevant .
For the foreseeable future, the U.S. will continue its strategic relationship with Saudi Arabia as this is vital to American interests. So we can argue and debate all with want but the fact remains, the U.S. has given absolutely no signs or has done anything to show that it is changing anything anytime soon, with regards to its strategic relationship with the Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, as this relationship, forms the cornerstone of its policy towards the region.

But the Chinese seem willing to sell anything to anyone, if the price is high enough.
Not true at all. China provided Pakistan with help as both have a strategic relationship going back decades and it was in China's interest, given that it had unresolved problems with India. If China was willing to provide stuff to anyone who can afford it, the Saudis in the 1980's would have been offered nuke warheads for their East Wind missiles and the Iranians would already be in possesion of a nuclear device.

It goes back to what I said earlier, it is not the 1990's or the 2000's anymore and getting access to nuke technology or missiles is not as easy as it was because there are limits to what North Korea can provide [assuming in the 1st place that they are willing to] and the Khan network is no longer functioning because of pressure brought about by the international community. Granted, Pakistan is a possibility but given the precarious situation the country is in and its need for U.S. and international aid to prop-up its economy, is highly unlikely to start selling the technology or missiles even to a country as rich and influential as Saudi Arabia. For their long term interests, the Pakistani's need the U.S. much more than they need the Saudis. Also bear in mind that Pakistan's remains fixated on India [which is its main concern and always has been], it needs U.S. political help, in case things take a turn for the worse with India.

The Iranians are no longer calling for the Arab masses to overthrow their 'corrupt' and 'decadent' rulers? That’s a new one. When did the change take place? Is it internal, or just in the western ‘press’?
No, it's not a 'new one, it's just that we are not in the 1980's anymore and Iranian threat perceptions and the geo-political enviroment in the region have evolved..... Things were way different in the 1980's, when an insecure and vulnerable Iran which had just undergone a revolution was plunged into a war with Saddam - which was supported by the West and the Sunni Arabs - and was facing external attempts to overthrow or destabilise the revolutionary regime. The Iranians certainly do not have a policy of encouraging the Arabs to overthrow their rulers anymore or in spreading the 'revolution' westwards as the Mullahs have far more important things to worry about and chaos in the Arab world would inevetibly affect Iran.

There have been positive contacts in recent times between Iran and the Arab League and Iran has publically said that it does not hold any grudges against Saudi and the other Gulf states - with regards to them bankrolling Saddam's 8 year war against Iran which led to hundreds of thousands of dead Iranians and the devastation of much of Iran - and has also stated on a number of occasions that they desire and need good relations with the Arab world as this is vital not only to Iran but to the whole region. If indeed Iran was still openly calling for the Arabs to overthrow their leaders in Riyadh, Kuwait City, Manama and Doha, we would be hearing no end about it in the press, as well as in Pentagon and State Department press briefings.
 
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