Indian Navy desperate for more ships

[XEROX]

Navy desperate for more ships
RAJAT PANDIT, TIMES NEWS NETWORK - SATURDAY, OCTOBER 23


NEW DELHI: The Navy plans to induct 120 warships and 12 submarines over the next 13 years to protect India's "extensive maritime interests" and expand its influence in the Indian Ocean Region.


But the bad news is that the government is yet to finalise definite budgetary allocation for this long-term ship-building perspective plan.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has not even cleared the long-pending $ 2-billion French "Scorpene" project, which envisages construction of six submarines at Mazagaon Docks, so far.


This disconnect between the Navy's shrinking force levels and its rapidly-expanding responsibilities will be reviewed when the naval top brass assembles here next week for the commanders' conference, say sources.

The Navy, at present, has 145 warships and submarines in its fleet but over 70 of them will have to be replaced in the coming 10-15 years.


Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash has already highlighted the urgent need "to arrest declining force levels", which will continue to go down till at least 2012 since "very few new orders" were placed from 1985 to 1995.


"The Navy needs to induct a major warship every two years to retain its operational profile but this did not happen over the last two decades," said an officer.


The total absence of strategic planning in the defence ministry is evident from the fact that the 10th five-year defence plan (2002-2007) itself is yet to be finalised despite half of the plan period having already elapsed.

The concrete allocation for the Navy's ship-building plan can be taken up only after that.

PM Manmohan Singh has in fact now asked for a "draft core plan" from the defence ministry to make up for the delay in the finalisation of the 10th five-year plan.


The not-so-bad news is that there are 19 warships in various stages of construction at the moment. These range from the Shivalik class stealth frigates to the 37,500-metric ton Air Defence Ship (ADS).

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/896445.cms

Intresting,
can someone post diagrams for the Shivalik stealth frigates

 

[adsH]

why can't the indian navy get off there back sides and see the new reality More ships is not the solution (it was the solutions in the coldwar ages). they should use whatever they have to do the task. Briton is doing the same Australia is another example.

 

[gf0012-aust]

why can't the indian navy get off there back sides and see the new reality More ships is not the solution (it was the solutions in the coldwar ages). they should use whatever they have to do the task. Briton is doing the same Australia is another example.

exactly, modern militaries (recent examples being germany and russia) are downsizing and focussing on capability not mass.

those nations who think that buying more platforms is the answer - are risking buying more targets.

the tactical world has changed - volume purchases as a defence response are destined to end up like the dinosaurs. - dead in large numbers.

 

[adsH]

for instance UK RN future Fleet would contain no more then 30 odd Large ships that i think is excluding the other smaller support vessels. What RN is working onn is modernizing its older fleet. replacing the fleet with lighter more strong and advance ships but keeping the number constant at the target 30 (excludeing smaller support vessels) these newer updated vessels are supposed to multitask and are going to be responsible for more work. they are reducing extra personnel and hireing Computer Scientist and Engineers to develop there own capability to update some of there systems , for instance there newest Career path is Information systems officer (that i have applied for :mrgreen ) , these sort of officer would prove quiet useful in the long runn.

 

[tatra]

For you all's information ...

The IN currently has 30 major surface combattants (plus some 13 veer class FAC and a couple of Abhay FPB) as well as 14 subs operational. So, many the vessels that need replacement are smaller and/or auxiliaries. See for yourself how many of the 30 need replacement in the next years.

1 Viraat CV (old:1959)
3 Delhi DD (new: 1997+)
3 Talwar FF (new: 2003+)
5 Rajput DD (old: 1980)
3 Godavari FF (average: 1983+)
2 Brahmaputra FF (new: 2000+)
5 Nilgiri FF (old: 1974+)
4 Kukri FS (new: 1998+)
4 Kora FS (average: 1989+)

2 Foxtrot SSk (old: 1973+)
4 SHISHUMAR (HDW 209) SSk (average: 1986+)
8 SINDHUGOSH (KILO) SSk (average: 1986+)

 

[srirangan]

If you need to defend your vast coastline, you need more ships. Period.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If you need to defend your vast coastline, you need more ships. Period.

Nope, not absolutely correct or necessary.

There are technologies in place that are not normally discussed in the public media which address these issues by a somewhat substantial margin.

You only need lots of ships if you have a need to deploy physical assets to interdict a threat. The capability to monitor a coastline, and attack incoming naval attacks is very much available without the need to resort to volume platform construction.

 

[adsH]

If you need to defend your vast coastline, you need more ships. Period.

not necesserily true !! if you were aware of the current doctrines that are being practiced by many modern Navies. then you would see that having a large number of ships are only necessary if you need to project force in a different part of the region. If India wants to defend its coastline then it should improvise using its current assets and should employ a new improved doctrine rather then useing the Old Soviet rule books. For coastal defense you can utilize coastal defense systems that can include offshore defenses systems water mines Airborne attack AC armed with competent anti ship cruise missiles etc. there are ways to defend your self more effectively rather then acquiring large amount of ships that are harder to manage and defend and harder to keep uptodate as technology ages very quickly (RN carriers get regular updates (and each one of those Updates don't come cheap)). as GF mentioned if you have more ships you have more targets floating around and couple that up with obsolete and less maintained rundown vessels then you don't have an advantage but a disadvantage as your a soft target just waiting there to be struck off the mapp. to have 145 good sized vessels in the fleet you have to have an effective Information system network that is not an easy task to build, effective communication effective surveillance effective air cover effective manned skills,effective doctrines effective weapon suites are vital for an effective force. at this point i can't see IN working towards its Maritime surveillance and communication systems it seems to be obsessed with massed numbers, even tho its primary aim is to defend its shores!! when key word coastal defense springs up in the conversation the first thing that comes to mind is Surveillance and effective communication (intelligence is superiority) to allocate the resources more intelligently rather then throwing the fleet (that is a scarce commodity) out on a Ad-hock basis,just hopeing to catch the infiltrator.

 

[gf0012-aust]

To give an example. In the halcyon days of the USN during Reagans Presidency, the US Fleet was close to 600 principle combat vessels. It was the largest and most effective major combat fleet ever created.

The US combat Fleet now is less than half that size and yet has more firepower, more capability and greater lethality than ever before in its history. Add up the next 5 navies and they don't even come close to matching its throw weight.

It's not the absolute numbers that counts. and its also not how many spears are on the frontline.

Logistics wins wars.

 

[armage]

Do any other countires (not US or Russia) have ships (destoryers and crusiers) with nuclear power?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Do any other countires (not US or Russia) have ships (destoryers and crusiers) with nuclear power?

Not at this stage. There isn't actually much cost benefit on nuclear powering a cruiser or destoyer sized vessel. The important nuke powered assets are the subs, carriers and ice breakers (which can double up as expeditionary logistics vessels in benign areas)
.

 

[Aegis]

To give an example. In the halcyon days of the USN during Reagans Presidency, the US Fleet was close to 600 principle combat vessels. It was the largest and most effective major combat fleet ever created.

The US combat Fleet now is less than half that size and yet has more firepower, more capability and greater lethality than ever before in its history. Add up the next 5 navies and they don't even come close to matching its throw weight.

It's not the absolute numbers that counts. and its also not how many spears are on the frontline.

Logistics wins wars.

300 ships r still consider a huge number(US)! India may needs to fight 2 front.India is like US a big country.No matter how sophisticated u still need certain number of warships!

 

[gf0012-aust]

No matter how sophisticated u still need certain number of warships!

No, you need the following:

The approp force mix
Redundant capability
The right warships
decent doctrine
decent DCT training
Better logistics.

There are new weapons technologies that are far more appropriate to use and cheaper to use than a ship - which may have a very limited shelf life.

What are you defining as the need and requirements for a navy? At a tactical level some other solutions will be more effective. (hence force mix)

 

[dabrownguy]

Is there a chance the IN will acquire the Amur class with 8 VL Barhmos?

 

[darklegent]

Amur with VLS is more of a concept then a reality. The work involved to incoperate the missiles is easier said then then. It would be much more then the present Amur and would have to have a displacement of an little excess of 3500 tons. An increase of such proportions would involve a major change to engines, aucostics, topd tubes, command and controls ect. Man, I think this would be a total new sub design then an add on of just VLS for the bhramos.

 

[tatra]

To give an example. In the halcyon days of the USN during Reagans Presidency, the US Fleet was close to 600 principle combat vessels. It was the largest and most effective major combat fleet ever created.

The US combat Fleet now is less than half that size and yet has more firepower, more capability and greater lethality than ever before in its history. Add up the next 5 navies and they don't even come close to matching its throw weight.

It's not the absolute numbers that counts. and its also not how many spears are on the frontline.

Logistics wins wars.

Damn right it does. That's why I'm surprised you overlooked the D-Day invasion fleet. A fleet of 1213 warships, 4126 landing ships, 736 ancillary vessels, and 864 merchant vessels were used in the invasion. USN under Reagan may have been most effective but certainly not the largest combat fleet ever.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Damn right it does. That's why I'm surprised you overlooked the D-Day invasion fleet. A fleet of 1213 warships, 4126 landing ships, 736 ancillary vessels, and 864 merchant vessels were used in the invasion. USN under Reagan may have been most effective but certainly not the largest combat fleet ever.

bad qualifier on my part, I was referring to absolute throw weight and capability.
but, thats a given when you consider that one boomer provides more firepower than any combined asset out of WW2.

 

[Sq No.15]

At this point of time India requires minmum 3 fleet headed by aircraft carriers and independent submaries.

 

[adsH]

remember fleets like those would cost top dollars and you can't just chove out an Aircraft carrier out there with antiquated Support, you need an effective system to defend such battle groups and you need a considerable amount of resources to keep a large battle group technologically updated. this isn't a number game. a single loss of a battle groups Flagship is an unacceptable loss!!

 

[corsair7772]

At this point of time India requires minmum 3 fleet headed by aircraft carriers and independent submaries.

I wouldnt say that. It depend on what your objectives are right? And whats the Aircraft carrier like. If its something like a Nimitz ull need just one and if u want to go against gwadar AND karachi ull need just one of the gorshkov class and maybe a refitted Viraat.