dabrownguy
New Member
A few years back I read that IN was preparing to arm the Delhi Class with Barhmos ASCM. And I was just thinking is it possible to arm the Delhi Class with a VLS Shytil?
Future upgrade of Delhi Class?
- Thread starter dabrownguy
- Start date
I doubt that it's worth doing. Brahmos could be installed as an all up cannister solution, whereas installing a VLS launcher would be intrusive. I would question whether there was sufficient bunkerage available.dabrownguy said:
The IN is updating the Delhi's (project 15) by removing port and starboard front AK630 and replacing each with 6 vl Barak SAM. Also, the associate Bass Tilt radar trackers are replaced by Elta STIR. I don't think that IN is replacing the 4x4 Uran SSM with 2x4 Brahmos but they could if they wanted to as the Delhi's were originally design for 2x4 Moskit.
The IN seems poised to rearm the best three Rajput (Kashin) class DD with 4x2 Brahmos. This class ship is already in use for testfiring Brahmos. Its 2x2 AK230 could easily be changed to 2x1 AK630 (from Delhi) plus 2x6 vl Barak.
The projected follow-on to the Delhi class is sltated to have both vl Shtil and Brahmos (project 15A).
The IN seems poised to rearm the best three Rajput (Kashin) class DD with 4x2 Brahmos. This class ship is already in use for testfiring Brahmos. Its 2x2 AK230 could easily be changed to 2x1 AK630 (from Delhi) plus 2x6 vl Barak.
The projected follow-on to the Delhi class is sltated to have both vl Shtil and Brahmos (project 15A).
Range: 25 kmEthan said:
Aspect: all-azimuth, the missile guidance method is semiactive, radar, based on the 'fire-and-forget' principle.
Concurrency: 12-target
FCS: Determined by the relevant target illumination module on the platform.
Propulsion: Single-stage solid-propellant missile unified with a missile of a ground-based air defense missile system.
Notes:
If separate components of the system fail, the latter is automatically reconfigurated with new operational algorithms.
Designed for ships with a displacement of 1,500 t and higher.
Originally the Shtil comprised the 9M38M1 (NATO: SA-N-7, a navalised SA-11), it is now being replaced by the 9M317ME SAM
I'm not sure what IN fleet std config positioning is.Ethan said:
But, in a larger CSF, the fleet footprint at a war setting could be a few hundred sq miles. At that point it depends what assets are in the force, as that will determine where they lie in the matrix.
A carrier is also normally running various CAPs, be they ASW, protective cover or E-sniffing.
In a US CSF that could mean a layered intercept detection ring stretching out to 500-600m's.
The further out the caps, and sweepers, the more able the CV is able to have its assets run intercept on ASh cruise missile launchers or air strikes. eg an E2C could be 6-700k out and be able to detect a cruise missile launched and inbound 450k's further out.
Russia moves to vertical-launch Shtil
Miroslav Gyürösi
Russia is offering a vertical-launch (VL) version of the Shtil-1 naval surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, writes Miroslav Gyürösi. The move from a system based on trainable launchers to one based on below-deck VL modules is similar to that taken by the US Navy in the mid-1980s when it switched from a Mk 26 trainable launcher to a VL system for the sixth and subsequent Ticonderoga-class Aegis cruisers.
Russian Public Joint Stock Company DNPP (Dolgoprudnenskoye naucsno - proizvodstvennoye predpriyatie), which is part of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, developed the new 9M317ME SAM as an upgrade for the Shtil-1 naval air-defence system. Developed by the Altair Naval Radio Electronics Scientific Institute Public Joint Stock Company, which is also a member of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, Shtil-1 is an improved version of the earlier Shtil system that is the export variant of the M-22 Uragan system fitted to the Project 956 (Sovremenny-class) destroyers.
The 9M38 missile was developed in the 1970s to be a common round for the land-based 9K37 Buk (SA-11 'Gadfly') and naval Uragan/Shtil (SA-N-7 'Gadfly') system. It used a configuration similar to that of the US Standard Missile, with cruciform wings of long chord and short span, plus cruciform tail surfaces. In the land-based system, the 9M38 was fired from 9A38 and 9A310 self-propelled launch vehicles, while the naval Shtil and Shtil-1 systems used a trainable launcher fed by a below-deck loading system based on 12-cell drum magazines.
In the early 1990s, development started on an improved 9M317 missile able to replace the 9M38. This armed the Buk-M1-2 (SA-17 'Grizzly') system, which entered service with the Russian Army in 1998. The 9M317 was similar in configuration to the 9M38 but the cruciform wings were of much smaller chord and span.
The new 9M317ME missile is being marketed as a further development of the older 9M38 and 9M317 but the changes are on a scale that makes the round almost a new missile. It is designed to be fired from a cylindrical container/launcher mounted in a cell within the new Shtil-1 VL system. This arrangement provides a much higher rate of fire than the original trainable launcher and magazine system used in Shtil and Shtil-1. The latter could fire a missile every six seconds, but the 9M317ME-based system being offered for Sovremenny-class destroyers can fire rounds at one-to-two-second intervals.
The new launch technique has required drastic changes to the configuration of the missile. The long-chord wings have been replaced by vestigial fixed surfaces located not on the missile centrebody but near the rear of the airframe just ahead of the cruciform tail surfaces. These fixed surfaces may be intended to control the airflow passing the tail fins. The latter move to steer the missile - the same control scheme used on the 9M38 - but are folded to allow the round to be stored in the container/launcher.
The 9M317ME is 5.18 m long and 360 mm in diameter. The tail surfaces have a span of 820 mm when deployed.
After the round leaves the VL, a spring mechanism unfolds the tail surfaces and four gas-control vanes operating in the motor efflux turn the missile towards the required direction of flight. Once this turnover manoeuvre is completed, the gas-control vanes are no longer used. Subsequent flight control is via the moving tail surfaces.
A dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor based on a more energetic charge than that used in the 9M38 provides the missile with a maximum speed of Mach 4.5 (1,550 m/s), a significant increase over the Mach 3.0 (1,230 m/s) of the older missile.
Guidance remains a combination of inertial and semi-active radar (SAR) homing. Inertial guidance is used in the early stages of flight and then the SAR seeker is activated to complete the interception. If the missile is being fired against long-range targets, it can receive mid-course updates while flying under inertial control. Launch weight of the 9M317ME is 581 kg. It is armed with a 62 kg warhead initiated by a dual-mode (active or semi-active) radar proximity fuze, or a contact fuze.
The range of the modernised Shtil-1 system is between 3.5-32 km, while the altitude coverage is from 5 m up to 15 km. These limits are set not by the performance of the missile but by the capabilities of the existing shipboard illuminating radars. This suggests further growth potential if the system is upgraded or if new radars are added.
The VL version of Shtil-1 is being offered for surface ships with displacement of more than 1,500 tonnes, providing protection against aircraft, helicopters, fast patrol boats and anti-ship missiles. It can also control the ship's guns. Publicly, no claims are being made for an anti-ballistic missile (ABM) capability, but the land-based 3M317 missile is reported to have successfully engaged Smerch artillery rockets and a ballistic missile during tests conducted in the mid-1990s. The VL system's ability to cope with tactical ballistic-missile threats may be limited by the performance of the existing shipboard radars.
The basic VL module contains 12 9M317ME missiles but, as with the unmodified Shtil and Shtil-1 systems, the upgrade is being offered in a series of optional configurations, which add greater numbers of MR-90 Orekh ('Front Dome') target-illumination radars and additional VL modules. All variants use target information from the ship's 3D surveillance radar.
The new 9M317ME missile is a near-wingless design.
(Source: Miroslav Gyürösi)
By comparison, from Global Security:
9K37M1 BUK-1M / SA-11 GADFLY / SA-N-7 GADFLY
The Mach 3 semi-active homing 9M28M1 missile has a maximum slant range of 28 km and a minimum range of 3 km. It is capable of engaging targets between altitudes of 30 and 14000 m and can sustain 23 g maneuvers. Max. altitude 22 km. Min. altitude 25m. Operational range 3-35 km
Miroslav Gyürösi
Russia is offering a vertical-launch (VL) version of the Shtil-1 naval surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, writes Miroslav Gyürösi. The move from a system based on trainable launchers to one based on below-deck VL modules is similar to that taken by the US Navy in the mid-1980s when it switched from a Mk 26 trainable launcher to a VL system for the sixth and subsequent Ticonderoga-class Aegis cruisers.
Russian Public Joint Stock Company DNPP (Dolgoprudnenskoye naucsno - proizvodstvennoye predpriyatie), which is part of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, developed the new 9M317ME SAM as an upgrade for the Shtil-1 naval air-defence system. Developed by the Altair Naval Radio Electronics Scientific Institute Public Joint Stock Company, which is also a member of the Almaz-Antey Air Defence Concern, Shtil-1 is an improved version of the earlier Shtil system that is the export variant of the M-22 Uragan system fitted to the Project 956 (Sovremenny-class) destroyers.
The 9M38 missile was developed in the 1970s to be a common round for the land-based 9K37 Buk (SA-11 'Gadfly') and naval Uragan/Shtil (SA-N-7 'Gadfly') system. It used a configuration similar to that of the US Standard Missile, with cruciform wings of long chord and short span, plus cruciform tail surfaces. In the land-based system, the 9M38 was fired from 9A38 and 9A310 self-propelled launch vehicles, while the naval Shtil and Shtil-1 systems used a trainable launcher fed by a below-deck loading system based on 12-cell drum magazines.
In the early 1990s, development started on an improved 9M317 missile able to replace the 9M38. This armed the Buk-M1-2 (SA-17 'Grizzly') system, which entered service with the Russian Army in 1998. The 9M317 was similar in configuration to the 9M38 but the cruciform wings were of much smaller chord and span.
The new 9M317ME missile is being marketed as a further development of the older 9M38 and 9M317 but the changes are on a scale that makes the round almost a new missile. It is designed to be fired from a cylindrical container/launcher mounted in a cell within the new Shtil-1 VL system. This arrangement provides a much higher rate of fire than the original trainable launcher and magazine system used in Shtil and Shtil-1. The latter could fire a missile every six seconds, but the 9M317ME-based system being offered for Sovremenny-class destroyers can fire rounds at one-to-two-second intervals.
The new launch technique has required drastic changes to the configuration of the missile. The long-chord wings have been replaced by vestigial fixed surfaces located not on the missile centrebody but near the rear of the airframe just ahead of the cruciform tail surfaces. These fixed surfaces may be intended to control the airflow passing the tail fins. The latter move to steer the missile - the same control scheme used on the 9M38 - but are folded to allow the round to be stored in the container/launcher.
The 9M317ME is 5.18 m long and 360 mm in diameter. The tail surfaces have a span of 820 mm when deployed.
After the round leaves the VL, a spring mechanism unfolds the tail surfaces and four gas-control vanes operating in the motor efflux turn the missile towards the required direction of flight. Once this turnover manoeuvre is completed, the gas-control vanes are no longer used. Subsequent flight control is via the moving tail surfaces.
A dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor based on a more energetic charge than that used in the 9M38 provides the missile with a maximum speed of Mach 4.5 (1,550 m/s), a significant increase over the Mach 3.0 (1,230 m/s) of the older missile.
Guidance remains a combination of inertial and semi-active radar (SAR) homing. Inertial guidance is used in the early stages of flight and then the SAR seeker is activated to complete the interception. If the missile is being fired against long-range targets, it can receive mid-course updates while flying under inertial control. Launch weight of the 9M317ME is 581 kg. It is armed with a 62 kg warhead initiated by a dual-mode (active or semi-active) radar proximity fuze, or a contact fuze.
The range of the modernised Shtil-1 system is between 3.5-32 km, while the altitude coverage is from 5 m up to 15 km. These limits are set not by the performance of the missile but by the capabilities of the existing shipboard illuminating radars. This suggests further growth potential if the system is upgraded or if new radars are added.
The VL version of Shtil-1 is being offered for surface ships with displacement of more than 1,500 tonnes, providing protection against aircraft, helicopters, fast patrol boats and anti-ship missiles. It can also control the ship's guns. Publicly, no claims are being made for an anti-ballistic missile (ABM) capability, but the land-based 3M317 missile is reported to have successfully engaged Smerch artillery rockets and a ballistic missile during tests conducted in the mid-1990s. The VL system's ability to cope with tactical ballistic-missile threats may be limited by the performance of the existing shipboard radars.
The basic VL module contains 12 9M317ME missiles but, as with the unmodified Shtil and Shtil-1 systems, the upgrade is being offered in a series of optional configurations, which add greater numbers of MR-90 Orekh ('Front Dome') target-illumination radars and additional VL modules. All variants use target information from the ship's 3D surveillance radar.
The new 9M317ME missile is a near-wingless design.
(Source: Miroslav Gyürösi)
By comparison, from Global Security:
9K37M1 BUK-1M / SA-11 GADFLY / SA-N-7 GADFLY
The Mach 3 semi-active homing 9M28M1 missile has a maximum slant range of 28 km and a minimum range of 3 km. It is capable of engaging targets between altitudes of 30 and 14000 m and can sustain 23 g maneuvers. Max. altitude 22 km. Min. altitude 25m. Operational range 3-35 km
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I take it the "shite" VLS system is not highly regarded... 
: (A bit of British slang there guys). Ethan the new Evolved Sea Sparrow SAM only has a range of 25 klm's or so and it's considered to be amongst the best anti missile system in the world.
Btw, most popular ship borne, close in defence missile systems (Mistral, RAM, Barak etc) only have (published) ranges of between 4 and 8 kilometres. 25klm's seems massive in comparison.
For your info, the Standard SM-1 missile has a range of about 50 klm's. The SM-2, by comparison has an extended (published) range in excess of 80 klm's.
Just one question, slightly off topic about the Brahmos missile and it's widely publicised range. How is it being targeted from Indian ships? Do they carry a ship borne helo which provides the targeting or some other esoteric system?
: (A bit of British slang there guys). Ethan the new Evolved Sea Sparrow SAM only has a range of 25 klm's or so and it's considered to be amongst the best anti missile system in the world.Btw, most popular ship borne, close in defence missile systems (Mistral, RAM, Barak etc) only have (published) ranges of between 4 and 8 kilometres. 25klm's seems massive in comparison.
For your info, the Standard SM-1 missile has a range of about 50 klm's. The SM-2, by comparison has an extended (published) range in excess of 80 klm's.
Just one question, slightly off topic about the Brahmos missile and it's widely publicised range. How is it being targeted from Indian ships? Do they carry a ship borne helo which provides the targeting or some other esoteric system?
IIRC, instead of 2 Sea Kings for ASW work, P15 and P15A may carry 1 Sea King plus 1 Ka-31 which may be used in targeting.
Shtil's range is comparable to that of Aster 15, which IMHO is acceptable considering that all IN ships that carry it (will) also have a second missile layer (VL Barak + AK630 or Kashtan)
For PLA-N, any new ship wil a halfway decent SAM is an improvement.
Shtil's range is comparable to that of Aster 15, which IMHO is acceptable considering that all IN ships that carry it (will) also have a second missile layer (VL Barak + AK630 or Kashtan)
For PLA-N, any new ship wil a halfway decent SAM is an improvement.
The older Delhi class destroyers are armed with the older Shtil system, which is not a VLS. I doubt that it can be updated with a VLS system. VLS has obvious advantages in the rate of of fire and quickness of respose to threats compared with a conventional launcher.
Regarding the update of the Brahmos anti-ship missiles, well I think this will most likely be done as the original plans called for installing the Moskit system. Howver the question is wether the Brahmos will be deployed in a VLS launch system or the conventional 2 quad system.
Regarding the update of the Brahmos anti-ship missiles, well I think this will most likely be done as the original plans called for installing the Moskit system. Howver the question is wether the Brahmos will be deployed in a VLS launch system or the conventional 2 quad system.
doggychow14
New Member
actually PLAN sams are fairly advanced considering the HQ-9 and the future HQ-16 and Russian SA-N-12 with new vls systems and RIF-M/S-300F SAM posibly installed on the next PLAN destroyer. But lets get back on topic shall we
PLAN still has to go from having a few ships with SAM to having ships that have SAM as standard part of their armament. The SAMs currently on operational ships are not the most advanced. The rest is for the future.doggychow14 said:actually PLAN sams are fairly advanced considering the HQ-9 and the future HQ-16 and Russian SA-N-12 with new vls systems and RIF-M/S-300F SAM posibly installed on the next PLAN destroyer. But lets get back on topic shall we
the carrier escort group is defined by necessary roles - not just by numbers of vessels.ajay_ijn said:
typically the structure is designed to address the following committments
ASW - skimmer and thus organic Air
Air Warfare - skimmer + carrier CAP
Anti-surface - skimmers + sub + carrier strike elements
ASW - subs -
Replenishment - AOR. this vessel will set the absolute minimum fleets speed
ACINT - subs - Organic Air
The minimum fleet speed is what starts to define its potential vulnerability for an attacker
Oh man This Big list is for US super Carriers.
This is definitely not for Indian carriers except if Indian Navy is seriously its blue water amibitions.
Except in emergency or during war,I think Indian carrier won't be escorted by subs,Underway replenishment ships or even ships for anti-Surface role.
The main problem for Indian carrier group would be ASW and to some extent they need to counter AAW.
I haven't seen even a single ship commissioned by Indian Navy for sole ASW role after the Induction of PN agostha's.
Project-28 ships might ASW corvettes which are to be built in the future.
Uhn, compared to the Sovremenny class, the Delhi class ships are pretty buff as far as ASW is concerned. And why do you think the Gadavari and Brahmaputra classes als have a double hangar and 2 Sea King ASW helicopters?! The main task of these three classes is ASW, with the Delhi's having secondary AAW role. All have anti surface role as well.ajay_ijn said:
doggychow14
New Member
PLAN's old ships do have sams, maybe not top the most advanced. They use HQ-7s where as newer ships will use hq9, rim-m/s-300, hq-16. . Shtil system is not the most advanced sam system as it is a navalized launch platform of the SA-N-7. The RIF-M/S-300F SAM is among the the top SAM's in the world and it is rumored to be installed on the future 051C.
Ya S-300 is a very good SAM but its only installed on Large Russian cruisers.
None of the Russian Destroyer or frigate has S-300.
The Main reason for this i think is S-300 uses a lot of space which is not available on Warship like destroyer.
I read that chinese 051C are to be armed with HQ-9 not S-300F.
HQ-9 is said to be comparable to S-300 thats all.
I didn't understand what u wanted to say.
SA-N-7 is itself a naval version of SA-11
Even S-300F is navalized version of S-300PMU