Eurofighter group proposes $5 bln work for Turkey's defense industry

P.A.F

New Member
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=44656


Eurofighter group proposes $5 bln work for Turkey's defense industry

Monday, May 29, 2006




Eurofighter proposes Turkey final assembly, weapons system integration, parts manufacturing and maintenance tasks for over 400 aircraft. The proposal matches rival JSF group’s local work offer of over $4 billion

Florence/Grosseto, Italy – TDN Defense Desk


The four-nation, European Eurofighter consortium that builds the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet has proposed a $5 billion industrial participation program to Turkey, a deal that will take effect if Ankara decides to become the group's fifth partner.
Giovanni Bertolone, chief executive officer for Alenia Aeronautica, the Italian partners of the Eurofighter group that promotes the fighter in Turkey, said that the proposal involves the final assembly of the entire program beginning with the manufacture of aircraft for Turkey. An Alenia official said that the assembly work would involve about 100 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force plus over 300 aircraft the Eurofighter group hopes to sell to other buyers.
The work will also involve the integration of weapons systems, production of parts including carbon fiber as well as maintenance and support for the fighter jets.
“This is a comprehensive proposal presently in the process of deep discussions (with the Turkish authorities),” Bertolone told reporters in Florence. “Our impression is that the SSM [Turkey's defense procurement office] are favorable to this industrial participation proposal.”
If it went ahead, Bertolone said, the proposal will allow the Turkish Air Force to gain “operational independence” -- the ability to autonomously maintain its fighter fleet. “It is our opinion that Turkey's local industry is well-developed, and prepared for ambitious hi-tech tasks,” Bertolone said. “Turkey qualifies to emerge as the operational support center for the Typhoon.”
He said if Turkey became the group's fifth partner, it would be tasked with promoting the fighter in “countries with which it has friendly relations,” like Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates. “The Eurofighter consortium believes that Turkey, with its advanced aviation industry, fulfils all the requirements to become a partner of the group,” Bertolone said. Partnership in the group, he said, would mean having access to source codes and other critical technology.
Asked if he agreed that Ankara would be discouraged from joining the European partnership if Turkey faced major problems in its accession talks with the European Union later this year, Bertolone said that although political unity was one of the essential ingredients of the idea to build a European fighter, “politics should not mask the industrial, military and technological benefits of the program.” “Let's be optimistic,” he said. “Europe's history is full of examples that illustrate political unity went parallel to cooperation in aviation.”
Earlier this year, Turkey launched a competition for the procurement of 120 new generation fighters. Recently, Eurofighter's cross-Atlantic rival in the contest, the multinational Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) group led by Lockheed Martin -- the world's biggest defense firm -- that builds the F-35, proposed a package of over $4 billion for Turkey's defense industry.
Turkey is a partner of the JSF group, and has invested $175 million for its development phase. Turkey's top procurement officials have repeatedly said that Turkey will either choose between the F-35 and the Typhoon, or go for a combination of both aircraft to meet its future fighter/strike requirements. For example, Murad Bayar, Turkey's chief procurement official, has said that by the end of 2006 Turkey will decide “whether to go for the F-35 only, the Eurofighter only, or both.”
Defense analysts view the F-35 as a “perfect striker,” a “future” aircraft designed for mainly air-to-ground missions, and the Typhoon as a solid fighter for mainly air-to-air missions. “Ideally, a country should possess both aircraft if, of course, it has the means to afford them from both a procurement and a maintenance point of view,” a Rome-based defense analyst said. “I am not sure if Turkey's finances are strong enough to support this idea.” Britain and Italy have decided to keep both aircraft in their fleet.
Last December, the Typhoon became fully operational in the Italian Air Force and has so far gone through over 1,600 flying hours. The first Typhoon had arrived in Italy's Grosseto air base in April 2005.
A demo flight at the Grosseto base showed that the Typhoon is up and running and defending Italian skies. The Typhoon fleet at Grosseto is ready to take to the air in 15 minutes around the clock. The aircraft are used for air defense, surveillance, training and reconnaissance and surveillance missions. The aircraft will soon be deployed for NATO-led missions in Afghanistan.
The Eurofighter program's first tranche foresees the manufacturing of 142 aircraft for its four partners: Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. Its second tranche will cover 236 aircraft for the partner nations plus 18 aircraft for Austria. Recently, the Eurofighter consortium penned a deal with Saudi Arabia for the sale of an unknown number of the Typhoon -- industry sources say the deal involves around 100 aircraft.
Eurofighter officials say if Turkey joined the partnership earliest deliveries for the Turkish Air Force could be scheduled for 2010. Analysts say deliveries under the JSF program would not begin before 2014. “The Typhoon could be a multi-purpose move for the Turks,” the same defense analyst said. “It can be a stop-gap solution, boost the local industry and complete the F-35 for a fully deterrent air force.”

_____________________________________________________

Great news for some industries:nutkick
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Clearly Eurofighter is trying to outbid Lockheed Martin and the JSF. Turkey cannot afford both so I hope they go with the Eurofighter instead. They need 4.5 gen fighters to augment their forces more than 5th gen. They don't have the technical need for such an advanced weapon system and with the unstable elements within the country they would eventually end up in the hands of the PRC which is the last thing the US wants. Eurofighter will be able to be supported and operated by Turkey indegenously and independent of all foreign assistance while being able to provide support to her Arab EF operaters. She will never make money exporting JSF, but she will be able to export EF so she might as well take the better deal, they don't need JSF unless Greece gets it to.
 

beleg

New Member
Turkey will most likely get JSF. However i believe at one time we will also get EF-2000 along with JSF. Industrialisation wise i dont think both planes offer more than each other despite the full partnership offer from EADS. TIII which TuAF shows interest in is still only in paper. TIIs ground attack capabilities and ammunition inventory is less effective than TuAFs inventory which will become very rich with the latest CCIP of the F-16s and the weapons purchases.

Both offers have good chances. Imo Turkey needs both planes..
 

contedicavour

New Member
Big-E said:
Clearly Eurofighter is trying to outbid Lockheed Martin and the JSF. Turkey cannot afford both so I hope they go with the Eurofighter instead. They need 4.5 gen fighters to augment their forces more than 5th gen. They don't have the technical need for such an advanced weapon system and with the unstable elements within the country they would eventually end up in the hands of the PRC which is the last thing the US wants. Eurofighter will be able to be supported and operated by Turkey indegenously and independent of all foreign assistance while being able to provide support to her Arab EF operaters. She will never make money exporting JSF, but she will be able to export EF so she might as well take the better deal, they don't need JSF unless Greece gets it to.
Without reopening the debate on 4th, 5th, or "4.5" generation fighters :p:
The Typhoon is an aircraft with significant evolutionary potential.
Our 4° stormo unit in Grosseto flies Batch 1 planes that are essentially air-to-air (Amraam while Meteor is under development). Our 36° stormo at Gioia del Colle (south-eastern Italy) will get as of 2008 the Batch II planes which are air-to-ground capable (anything from Paveway III to Maverick to Storm Shadow stand-off missiles). If Batch III is authorized the 37° (Trapani, in Sicily) and the 5° (Rimini, some 100km south of Venice) will move from F-16 ADF to Typhoon Batch II-updated and Batch III and be very good fighter bombers.
It is these Batch III that would be a superb deal for Turkey. This plane can operate the same weapons as a JSF ... poorer on stealth, but perfect for air-to-air as well. To summarize, I believe Turkey would do a very good deal buying and assembling locally Typhoons.

Vs the "JSF or Typhoon" discussion... Italy will need both since we'll have to replace the Tornado fighterbombers and the Navy's Harrier Plus, but frankly I hope our Alenia/Finmeccanica will get enough offset, otherwise the Typhoon Batch III would be enough at least for the Air Force. Our Navy has no choice however, since the JSF will have a monopoly over the post-Harrier market :rolleyes:

cheers
 

410Cougar

New Member
Which kind of leads me to my thought....what to use as a gap filler until the JSF is ready?

Would a country like Turkey still continue to use Vipers/Phantoms until the JSF is ready or would it be in their best interest to acquire already state of the art Eurofighters as the Phantoms are really starting to show their age and the Vipers are just undergoing Block 50 upgrades?

I'd have to say I side with Big-E here, in that the "Eurofighter will be able to be supported and operated by Turkey indegenously and independent of all foreign assistance while being able to provide support to her Arab EF operaters."
 

beleg

New Member
Many in Turkey advocate for such an early purchase of TII EFs and later on in 2015s start the JSF acqusition, however there are many criticising acqusition of 2 aircraft types at same time while operating the Viper and the Phantoms. The demand for aircraft is out there.

Turkey needs to replace her unmodernised F-4s ASAP, we have lost 20+ F-16 and in 2020 we need to replace the 50 F-4-TIs and perhaps even the early F-16 blk30s which have very high flight hours will have to be removed form frontline duties.All these mean until 2020 we need from 120 to 150 new aircraft.

IMO a mix of both aircraft is an absolute necessity for Turkey like Italy or Britain , however economical reasons might prohibit this. In this case i think its very probable that F-35 will be selected, considering the long tradition of TuAF using American planes, being worlds second biggest Viper user, military being more EU-sceptic than US-sceptic and last but not least having very important common interests with USA in ourregion this choice looks more natural to me.
 

Totoro

New Member
Thing is that f35 production is already booked for many, many years. US forces have priority, UK comes second, only after that can turkey hope to get its planes. Of course, it is quite possible that LM will fight for a part of the production to go for export from the day one but looking at past examples in history, i seriously doubt turkey could get anything more than a token 2-3 planes a year before 2020 or so. In that light, and especially with the whole EU membership deal, EF does have quite fair chances, perhaps not to be the sole new fighter, but at least that its bought in limited numbers to keep turkey's edge sharp all the way to 2020.

It really depens on f35 production deal - will there be delays, increases in price, will there be many more than 100 or so produced a year and who will have priority in getting them.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
A certain other nation in the Middle East is getting their Eurofighters with 10-20% off. Not a bad bit of haggling!!
 

contedicavour

New Member
Totoro said:
Thing is that f35 production is already booked for many, many years. US forces have priority, UK comes second, only after that can turkey hope to get its planes. Of course, it is quite possible that LM will fight for a part of the production to go for export from the day one but looking at past examples in history, i seriously doubt turkey could get anything more than a token 2-3 planes a year before 2020 or so. In that light, and especially with the whole EU membership deal, EF does have quite fair chances, perhaps not to be the sole new fighter, but at least that its bought in limited numbers to keep turkey's edge sharp all the way to 2020.

It really depens on f35 production deal - will there be delays, increases in price, will there be many more than 100 or so produced a year and who will have priority in getting them.
Good point. When Austria bought 20 Typhoons, it negotiated to receive early 2008 some of the first batch 2 planes, while the RAF agreed to delay some of its planes by 1 year so that the deal could be sealed.

cheers
 

Scorpion82

New Member
contedicavour said:
Good point. When Austria bought 20 Typhoons, it negotiated to receive early 2008 some of the first batch 2 planes, while the RAF agreed to delay some of its planes by 1 year so that the deal could be sealed.

cheers
Austria will receive 18 Typhoons from 2007 ;) .
The first 6 examples will be Tranche 1, which will be upgraded to Tranche 2 standard.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Scorpion82 said:
Austria will receive 18 Typhoons from 2007 ;) .
The first 6 examples will be Tranche 1, which will be upgraded to Tranche 2 standard.
I wasn't aware of that. Good decision though, as Tranche 1 deliveries should be completed by end 2007 and the Austrians will have some time to familiarize... and to put those Drakens into a museum ;)

cheers
 

Scorpion82

New Member
contedicavour said:
I wasn't aware of that. Good decision though, as Tranche 1 deliveries should be completed by end 2007 and the Austrians will have some time to familiarize... and to put those Drakens into a museum ;)

cheers
Originally Austria wanted to buy 24 aircraft from Tranche 1 to be delivered from 2005. However the flood disaster in August 2002 and the political pressure lead to the decision to buy only 18 aircraft, but Tranche 2 examples from May 2007 to 2009. As the contract signature slipped for tranche 2 due to political reasons the 4 original customers decided to provide at all 6 of their tranche 1 aircraft to keep the delivery schedule (May 2007). That means the other customers will receive 6 more Tranche 2 examples, but 6 less under tranche 1. The first 6 austrian aircraft will all be Block 5 aircraft and they will be later upgraded to the Block 8 standard without additional costs.
The Draken was already outphased in december 2005. Since july 2004 the austrian Bundesheer is flying 12 F-5E Tiger II leased from the swiss airforce as an interim solution as long as the Eurofighter isn't available.
 

beleg

New Member
The talks with Alenia is about Tranche II aircraft for Turkey (blk8). Totoro, although US & Britain are the first to receive F-35 Turkey is a level 3 partner. When we dont know the initial build numbers per year we cant estimate how many planes per year the level 3 partners will get but we know form the latest issues of def mags in Turkey that airforce is already consdering some lease/sec hand/new F-16s(~30 planes) as a gap filler until F-35 arrive in sufficient numbers. Some advocate EF-2000 instead of this but of course it is much more costly.
 

adsH

New Member
Turkey is probably the Best Match for an addition for the consortium, they have the Technical skills and they have cheap Labour non EU Regulated! They Have brilliant Relations with some Eastern nation they can significantly bring down the price of EF in the long terms while promoting the aircraft to possibly couple of inaccessible markets. they're also NATO so they can trusted with Technology
 

BilalK

New Member
Eurofighter would be an excellent addition into the Turkish Air Force, with the F-35 it would provide the air force with a huge variety of European and American munitions to use. In other words, Turkey's capabilities would be near limitless as it would be able to use weapons which are the high points of each side (Europe and U.S). It would also give them excellent air superiority (Eurofighter) and strike capability (F-35).
 
Top