DMO Project AIR 87 Aussie Tiger ARH

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Does anyone have updated info on the status of this project? The most recent info from the DMO website is as of November, and mentioned that 6 of 22 had been accepted into service as of July. Since then, I haven't heard anything else aside from the program being behind schedule.

-Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Does anyone have updated info on the status of this project? The most recent info from the DMO website is as of November, and mentioned that 6 of 22 had been accepted into service as of July. Since then, I haven't heard anything else aside from the program being behind schedule.

-Cheers
The program is behind schedule, but for once it's not really Army OR DMO's fault. The Australian program has outstripped the French and German programs and has had to slow to allow them to catch up, as far as certification issues, etc are concerned.

Army has had some problems though. It can't get enough pilots for one thing OR enough "Battle Captains" (which is a flow on effect from not enough pilots)...
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Further Information

The latest information concerning Air 87 can be found on the JSCPAA web site at -

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jpaa/defence/subs.htm


With your magenta enhanced spectacles on, read the ANAO Report - sadly this 'model acquisition project' is still the old model.

The hearing transcripts make for an interesting read. Looks like there is more to come in this regard.

What is intriguing from an operational perspective is that apart from armoured crew seats, the aircraft does not seem to have any other armour protection, even for vital components.

From a design perspective, it still has Kapton insulated wiring, the use of which was banned by DGTA shortly after the USN banned its use back in 1988.

Go figure.


:rolleyes:
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The latest information concerning Air 87 can be found on the JSCPAA web site at -

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jpaa/defence/subs.htm


With your magenta enhanced spectacles on, read the ANAO Report - sadly this 'model acquisition project' is still the old model.

The hearing transcripts make for an interesting read. Looks like there is more to come in this regard.

What is intriguing from an operational perspective is that apart from armoured crew seats, the aircraft does not seem to have any other armour protection, even for vital components.

From a design perspective, it still has Kapton insulated wiring, the use of which was banned by DGTA shortly after the USN banned its use back in 1988.

Go figure.


:rolleyes:
That is very depressing information. I had thought that the Tiger would provide a quantum leap in capability and hopefully it still will, when it finally gets operational. I'm amazed though at the lack of armour for a helo that is expected to operate in high threat scenarios.

The other thing I found depressing was what seemed to me like 147 pages of gobbledygook in the DOD submission. It just seems to me that the DOD is a typical public service organisation weighed down by paperwork, committees and inquiries, all of which seem to delay but not improve the delivery of good gear to the three services. Am I being unfair or has its performance improved?

Cheers

:shudder
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From a design perspective, it still has Kapton insulated wiring, the use of which was banned by DGTA shortly after the USN banned its use back in 1988.

Go figure.


:rolleyes:
OK, now I'm confused. Depending on who is Occum at the moment, you will remember that I used to work with a milspec cable and connector company in 2001. At that time we had just removed and marked for destruction a couple of km's of kapton insul cabling due to the DGTA directive.

I remember we had Indian, Chinese and Russian vendors offering to buy it off of us - and we refused to sell due to safety issues.

So HTF do they get away with installing kapton sheathed cable when we've known for 6 years that its too risky to include in a spec?
 

Jezza

Member
Does anyone know how much armour is on a apache then????
It would be some what suicidal to captain a tiger then??
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Where for art thou, Kapton?

So HTF do they get away with installing kapton sheathed cable when we've known for 6 years that its too risky to include in a spec?
You might, then, want to take a look at the wiring insulation being used in the MMRT aircraft.

As to why things are the way they are, see -

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2005-01.pdf

and associated Annexes. There is much in history that has led us all to this sorry state of affairs but one can't change history (though many would like to and try).

However, one should be able to learn the lessons from history when addressing the root cause of today's ailments and problems.


:)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You might, then, want to take a look at the wiring insulation being used in the MMRT aircraft.
Is this a particularly french position? I would assume that in the case of their (French) license built aircraft in the US (like the dauphin) that any reharness work would have to comply and have that harnessing gutted.

if its only french aircraft companies that are doing this, then why hasn't the kapton safety issue been addressed?

AFAIK none of the US new built or BAE component supported platforms involved use kapton sheathing - or am I incorrect?
 
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Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Kapton

Boy, where to start. This is a big subject with a lot of contention. Suffice to say - two different philosophies - basically American and European. Best to do some background research on the Web. The whole sorry saga is up there on a number of authoritative sites.

The Australian Hornets still have Kapton insulated wiring that is now breaking down, which goes some way to explain the extended down times due to electrical faults and requisite repairs. Centre barrelling will be fun as this will require folding back and removing looms that would not have have been disturbed since production, except for faults.

FYI - pretty much all the Kapton insulated wiring was replaced in the F-111s during AUP and BUPs.

:D
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boy, where to start. This is a big subject with a lot of contention. Suffice to say - two different philosophies - basically American and European. Best to do some background research on the Web. The whole sorry saga is up there on a number of authoritative sites.
we did a sponsored documentary for Channel 9 at the time called "Fire in the Sky". There was a fair bit of supporting data provided by specialist cable companies and IIRC - Boeing came to the party as well.


The Australian Hornets still have Kapton insulated wiring that is now breaking down, which goes some way to explain the extended down times due to electrical faults and requisite repairs. Centre barrelling will be fun as this will require folding back and removing looms that would not have have been disturbed since production, except for faults.
interesting if some of that harnessing is routed through fuel tanks. (like the Mig-21's) We did advise the Indian vendors at the time that in our view, and superficially without a closer inspection, we thought that some of their mid air disintegrations were kapton degradation initiated. We did tell them to speak to their aviation and test engineers for a qualified opinion ;)

the other thing (from the laymans perspective) is that if those kapton sheathed looms are coursing around kinked structures, then disturbing them could render them kaputt. and that would mean a reharness anyway.


FYI - pretty much all the Kapton insulated wiring was replaced in the F-111s during AUP and BUPs.
I assumed that they would have been done (on any removed harnesses) based on the advice we got at the time re banning kapton from future US milspec installs. But, I wasn't sure if it had been done.

I am surprised at the Euro approach though. I thought kapton had been pulled on all commercial passenger jet builds and that would migrate to mil aircraft/naval vessels/land platforms.
 

MARKMILES77

Well-Known Member
I thought Kapton was still widely used in Europe e.g. by Airbus?
My understanding was that the Europeans are not convinced that there are dangers in its use or at least that the dangers have been exaggerated.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I thought Kapton was still widely used in Europe e.g. by Airbus?
My understanding was that the Europeans are not convinced that there are dangers in its use or at least that the dangers have been exaggerated.
It's difficult to track exactly what they use, since particular wires may be used in limited areas only. The official Airbus view, for example, is that there's no such thing as good or bad insulation: there's appropriate & inappropriate insulation. What's good for one use may be lethal for another, & vice-versa. Airbus was, a while ago, using it for restricted areas, where they thought it safe.

Boeing & Airbus both use cross-linked Tefzel, which Block, Paterson, et al reckon is almost as bad as Kapton.

Airbus used KTT for years, but has replacd it with TKT, like Boeing.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I heard somewhere that we just test fired a Hellfire 2 and its the first tigre to do it and we could get royalties??? what is there some kind of military patent office or something? if so who polices this?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think any other Tiger user also plans to use Hellfire 2 so far.
Or am I wrong?
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I heard somewhere that we just test fired a Hellfire 2 and its the first tigre to do it and we could get royalties??? what is there some kind of military patent office or something? if so who polices this?
The ARH program has so far fired a total of 8 "live" Hellfire II missiles. As I understand such things, this (along with captive carry tests etc) was sufficient to demonstrate the "full" and successful integration of the weapon with the aircraft.

You are correct Australia "could" get royalties, should another Country decide to try an integrate Hellfire II onto the Tiger Helicopter AND decide to use our work as a basis to do it.

To date, none of the 3 other Countries that have so far chosen Tiger have decided to integrate Hellfire (France and Germany are using TRIGAT and Spain is using SPIKE-LR).

Any future operator of the Tiger, may choose to use Hellfire and therefore "may" have to pay us royalties, IF we chose to enforce such. To do so we would probably need to take legal action in the Country that chooses Tiger AND in France, the Country that will supply Tiger.

In all, it seems an unrealistic option at best...
 

Trackmaster

Member
Re Occum's post of two days ago regarding armour protection of vital components on the Tiger.

From what I have seen, all the electronics down the flanks of the aircraft sit behind thin composite or aluminium hinged panels. Rack upon rack with no apparent protection.

To my untrained eye, it appeared it would be very messy in an environment where there was some well aimed, or maybe even sprayed small-arms fine.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re Occum's post of two days ago regarding armour protection of vital components on the Tiger.

From what I have seen, all the electronics down the flanks of the aircraft sit behind thin composite or aluminium hinged panels. Rack upon rack with no apparent protection.

To my untrained eye, it appeared it would be very messy in an environment where there was some well aimed, or maybe even sprayed small-arms fine.
I noticed similar "lack of armouring" on the anzac harpoon cannister mods.

unarmoured exposed cables are not going to do very well if they are whacked by shrapnel/cluster weapons.

One decent proximity burst and a mobility kill (shrapnel shredded cables) could become a fatality - esp on a helo.
 

Occum

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What is the 'root cause' and How can it all be fixed?

One is left asking, "Why is this all happening?"

Am sure there are many reasons for all of this - anyone can point the finger at Tange, Wrigely, CSP, DER and its bastard sybling DRP to name but a few. But all of these things have one thing in common - they are back in history and if there is one thing that is a truism - you can't change history (as much as many folks would like to and even try to with their sophistry and spin).

What is the root cause of these ailments that plague Defense - TODAY?

Surely, identifying the root cause (or root causes) should be the first thing that all these inquiries and reviews should be doing - then get them acknowledged and accepted by the politicians and Defense itself.

This is what the Goldwater-Nichols Act was all about with regard to the US DoD back in the late 1980s but it took them over 4 years to get their DoD to accept the facts. Now there is one lesson Australia could learn from the US experience.

Interestingly, the current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen Peter Pace, reckons that Goldwater-Nichols was the best reform program ever undertaken by and on the US DoD. He feels so strongly about this that he is advocating Goldwater-Nichols type reform should be applied to all security and defense agencies in the US.

;)
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I noticed similar "lack of armouring" on the anzac harpoon cannister mods.

unarmoured exposed cables are not going to do very well if they are whacked by shrapnel/cluster weapons.

One decent proximity burst and a mobility kill (shrapnel shredded cables) could become a fatality - esp on a helo.
Plus recent operational experience has shown the attack helos are quite vulnerable to small arms fire. The Apaches were handed tactical defeats in both Iraq and Afghanistan and were heavily damaged. They are heavily armoured birds which no doubt saved them and their crews, but what would have happened to our Tigers in that situation? We'd have lost a lot more.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Plus recent operational experience has shown the attack helos are quite vulnerable to small arms fire. The Apaches were handed tactical defeats in both Iraq and Afghanistan and were heavily damaged. They are heavily armoured birds which no doubt saved them and their crews, but what would have happened to our Tigers in that situation? We'd have lost a lot more.
IIRC that was AA artillery. As I understand it, Kerbala was a employment/doctrinal failure. Using attack helos for deep battle proved not to be a good idea.

Using Cobras for CAS and Kiowas for recce seemed to be OK.

Dunno about Afghanistan, though.
 
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