Canadian NFA

[stephen weist]

Once again the canadian government is dragging its feet and risking lives while doing it. The CF18 is going on twenty something and really showing its age. Only now is the airforce upgrading them to be able to fly and fight like they should have from the start(try finding one airborn without external fuel tanks). I remember being stationed at CFB coldlake in alberta canada when the first one arrived. When all the fanfare was over I spoke to some pilots and all they could say was (at least they are not 25 years old) the general attidude was anything is better than what we are flying now. The government is keeping quiet about the age of its CF18s as replacing them is going to be expensive. I read about the coming JSF and wonder if it is going to be more cost effective than say buying F15Es. Shy of running into a F22 I think the F15 will be more than enough aircraft for canada considering potential adversaries and what they might fly.

 

[410Cougar]

While our fleet of 18's is getting up there in age, the airframe is a good one and we use it to the best of its capabilities. I don't necessarily believe the F-15 to be a reasonable replacement for the Hornet mainly due to money and also to shelf life. Would we want another plane that has already been around for 15 years as opposed to 20?

Personally I'm not a big fan of the JSF either as it doesn't have 2 engines, which is a HUGE requirement for our boys. My first choice would be the Rhino as the pilots wouldn't have to be retrained that much to fly them and it is a good, sound new airframe that can do what we need it to do and look good doing it.

Hopefully when we get new planes in 10 years or so we'll be able to make the right decision and make everyone happy.

410Cougar aka Attila who let his old account slide..lol

Attila

 

[SABRE]

F-18 is a multirole fighter, F-15 is a Air Superiority fighter. Two different Platforms.

Canada can either buy the new F-18E/F or F-16 Block 52+C/D or Block 60E/F.

Or wait for JSF-35.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Once again the canadian government is dragging its feet and risking lives while doing it. The CF18 is going on twenty something and really showing its age. Only now is the airforce upgrading them to be able to fly and fight like they should have from the start(try finding one airborn without external fuel tanks). I remember being stationed at CFB coldlake in alberta canada when the first one arrived. When all the fanfare was over I spoke to some pilots and all they could say was (at least they are not 25 years old) the general attidude was anything is better than what we are flying now. The government is keeping quiet about the age of its CF18s as replacing them is going to be expensive. I read about the coming JSF and wonder if it is going to be more cost effective than say buying F15Es. Shy of running into a F22 I think the F15 will be more than enough aircraft for canada considering potential adversaries and what they might fly.

Currently we are upgrading all of our CF-18s to F-18C/D standard. The fleet will remain in service until it can be replaced by JSF. I don't know who you talked to about the conditions of our aircrafts, but they are amoung the most well maintained F-18 fleets in the world. DND has approved over 1.2 billion dollars for the military to purchase new toys in the next 8 years so I don't see the point of bashing the government over this issue.

 

[stephen weist]

Yes you are correct, we have the best maintained 20+ yr old aircraft money can keep flying. 1.2 billion over 8 years, spread out between all branches. money being wasted on junk. Lets face it, how much of that is going to buy the wheeled death buckets that are replacing our MBT. Then how much to try and keep the subs floating so they can be used as training assets for properly equipted navies,, then whats left over for purchasing any JSF aircraft(which would be a waste, considering canada could get F15Es cheaper). (Dare I even mention helicopters) I bet a new build F15 will fly circles around any JSF. The government should be held accountable for this waste. When they start purchasing with a "can do" not "make do" attitude our troops will be better off. Its not all the government either. I bet we have just as many General/Staff officers as the US does and our military is maybe one tenth the size.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Yes you are correct, we have the best maintained 20+ yr old aircraft money can keep flying. 1.2 billion over 8 years, spread out between all branches. money being wasted on junk. Lets face it, how much of that is going to buy the wheeled death buckets that are replacing our MBT. Then how much to try and keep the subs floating so they can be used as training assets for properly equipted navies,, then whats left over for purchasing any JSF aircraft(which would be a waste, considering canada could get F15Es cheaper). (Dare I even mention helicopters) I bet a new build F15 will fly circles around any JSF. The government should be held accountable for this waste. When they start purchasing with a "can do" not "make do" attitude our troops will be better off. Its not all the government either. I bet we have just as many General/Staff officers as the US does and our military is maybe one tenth the size.

Oh crap did I say 1.2 billion? It's 12 billions actually.

 

[410Cougar]

Wow, this turned ugly quick! lol

Sabre, no knock on the F-16, great airplane for sure! Only thing is that one of our requirements is 2 engines. Kinda hard to get back to base with no engine given the vast territory the planes are required to patrol over!

As for the JSF, well, whatever we get will be good. Must say that I have a soft spot in my heart for the SH's since they are a PHENOMENAL plane...but then again, I'm just a lowly person...lol

As for Liberal mismanagement, that is meant for politics and this is about DND. Really, while I love political discussion, it has no place here.

410Cougar aka Attila who let his old account slide

 

[SABRE]

Wow, this turned ugly quick! lol

Sabre, no knock on the F-16, great airplane for sure! Only thing is that one of our requirements is 2 engines. Kinda hard to get back to base with no engine given the vast territory the planes are required to patrol over!

I was just pointing out that u cant replace F-18s with F-15s. F-18s are multirole & if u realy need their replacement than I dont see any thing better than F-16s available.

 

[410Cougar]

Sabre, with all due respect, nothing better than F-16's available? lol Man, I love guys like you! lol

I know I might regret asking, but can you tell me why the F-16 is better than the Super Hornet?

Attila

 

[SABRE]

Sabre, with all due respect, nothing better than F-16's available? lol Man, I love guys like you! lol

I know I might regret asking, but can you tell me why the F-16 is better than the Super Hornet?

Attila

U should just re read what I am saying or just shoot me. U wont regret my answer but I do regret for saying what I have said. No body paid any attention to the word "Replacement".

In few previous post in this thread some one said some thing about replacing F-18s with F-15s. What I replied in this matter was that F-15s are airsuperiority fighters while F-18s are multirole. Canada should get new F-18E/F but if u want to replace it (meaning phase out F-18s) than buy F-16E/F Block 60.

Since Canada uses American fighters & get their ToT, no other multirole fighter is available to replace F-18 other than F-16 from US untill JSF is ready.

The sentence "only available (Multirole) fighter" is only meaning less when Canada is buying fighters from France, Sweden or any other country.

I hope u get what I am saying here. Some times my explainations r pretty lousy.

 

[stephen weist]

Gee thats funny because the americans specificaly introduced the F15 strike eagle to be a multi -role attack aircraft without sacraficing its fighter role. Even the bomcat version of the F14 is better than F18s(old and new). As for the arguement about single engine vs twin, I think we used cf104s and they did not fall from the skies(well at least not often), and any new single engine bird is more reliable. Still put my money on the F15.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Excuse my ignorance, but why would the Eurofighter and Rafale not be considered? They are multi-role, twin engine and really only outclassed, in the case of the Eurofighter, by the F-22.

I read an online article in the Scotsman a few months ago that two USAF F-15s on a training flight over England decided to 'bounce' a single Eurofighter and to everyone’s surprise, including the pilot of the Eurofighter, the Eurofighter manoeuvred for two clean simulated kills on the F-15s.

 

[410Cougar]

WhiskeyJack,

We always partner up with the US...alot of politics involved, but they also have operations up here in Canada so it's a give and take relationship on both sides.

Stephen,

Tomcat better than the new Rhino? Sorry man, I gotta massively disagree with you there. More agile, greater payload, greater range and greater fighter/attack capablities than the 14 would have ever had. Don't get me wrong, I'll miss the Tomcat, but the Rhino is there for a reason. As for a single engine plane, sorry, can't convince me that its a good idea. Give me a 2 engine plane any day.

Sabre,

F/A stands for Fighter/Attack. It's a multirole plane, has been since its inception. As for shooting you, I ran out of ammo last week so you're a lucky guy... No worries, I have trouble explaining myself to myself sometimes as well!

Attila

 

[Whiskyjack]

I don't really know the situation re politics, I am sure that the RCAF will want a new generation multirole aircraft, the F18E/F is not in this category. What does that leave, the F-35 will not fit either, the F-22 is to expensive....at this point the options begin to look a bit limited.

 

[stephen weist]

The F18s old or new have no where near the range of the tomcat with the same weapons load. They can only hit the same target /range numbers by using massive refueling assets. Without the refueling the carriers would have to close the range by half for the F18s to operate. This study was already looked at and the navy knows this but was willing to live with it to get new planes. As for the uero fighter/ Raf /F22 or JSF I cannot see any scenerio in the future where canada would be in conflict with any of the countries flying them so a lager number of less expensive fighters would be a better choice.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Stephen, I think that the F15E is a great aircraft, but what Canada needs first is a platform that first of all can be rapidly deployed to our nothern flank, I foresee that in the next decade canada's soveriegnty will be seriously challenged by country's wanting to expliot the opening up of the northern passage for shipping and drilling etc.

Now I may be wrong, but the CF18 still needs a pretty large airfield and ground support for operating in the arctic. In my view a F35 can use smaller airfields, and would be the best answer for Littoral operations in patroling and policing our areas in the arctic. Sure, it is single engined, but the reliability of current powerplants is phenominal, and would not be a great issue.

OK, I am rambling, but Canada has to defend her airspace, the CF18 is great for that, but for doing both the air defense mission and any other ground attack mission, we just do not have enough of them.

Maybe keeping them around in their Air defense role will be better, as taht role is not so taxing in terms of airframe stress tahn Tactical ground support.

Maybe we will have to purchase a F35 to accomplish the patrolling and shipping lane security type mission that will be our major concern in the next 10-20 years.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Excuse my ignorance, but why would the Eurofighter and Rafale not be considered? They are multi-role, twin engine and really only outclassed, in the case of the Eurofighter, by the F-22.

I read an online article in the Scotsman a few months ago that two USAF F-15s on a training flight over England decided to 'bounce' a single Eurofighter and to everyone’s surprise, including the pilot of the Eurofighter, the Eurofighter manoeuvred for two clean simulated kills on the F-15s.

Whiskyjack, Yeah the Typhoon is a great aircraft, and the Rafale is a WOW aircraft, but the question is will Canada ever again deploy Fighter aircraft again overseas to assist in NATO or other campaigns against whoever?

Will Canadian Forces aircraft ever be involved in a dogfight over the Arctic?

What I see is a requirement to rapidly deploy to the Arctic, to austere airfields to patrol or assert our nations soveriegnty there, That requires an aircraft that can operate in bad, and I mean bad conditions.

Can the Typhon, or the Rafale operate in that kind of environment? Should we buy aircraft from potentially agressive nations that will be no doubt wanting to exploit our Northern Passage for shipping lanes and Natural resources? And, will the cost of such a platform mean that we can only buy a few of them , and then have to make a decision as to whether we can both supply Air Defense to Norad against Hostile Air Liners and assert our Arctic Soveriegnty?

 

[Brit]

Can the Typhon, or the Rafale operate in that kind of environment? Should we buy aircraft from potentially agressive nations that will be no doubt wanting to exploit our Northern Passage for shipping lanes and Natural resources? And, will the cost of such a platform mean that we can only buy a few of them , and then have to make a decision as to whether we can both supply Air Defense to Norad against Hostile Air Liners and assert our Arctic Soveriegnty?

Rafale-M?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Gee thats funny because the americans specificaly introduced the F15 strike eagle to be a multi -role attack aircraft without sacraficing its fighter role. Even the bomcat version of the F14 is better than F18s(old and new). As for the arguement about single engine vs twin, I think we used cf104s and they did not fall from the skies(well at least not often), and any new single engine bird is more reliable. Still put my money on the F15.

Stephen, I was not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to point out that the F15E is a great aircraft, multi mission capable with all the bells and whistles,
but how much longer will they be available for sale? for that matter we may as well buy surplus f15C and E aircraft from the USAF before they sell them to Israel, South korea or Saudi Arabia.
And yes, I am a big ZIPPER fan (CF104), in fact, a ZIPPER could haul the same amount of weapons, faster and farther at low altitude than a CF18 could. My point is will we be able to purchase an airframe in quantity to be able to fulfill our needs ( Whatever they are )?

My point also about single engine vs twin is not a big deal anymore, my point was that engine reliability has improved substantially in the last 10-15 years, so twin engine safety is something that should figure less in the disussion.

My point is before we run to the bank to get the money to by a much needed replacement for the CF18, we have to have a definite defense policy and strategic need for them.

There are alot of F18C hornets in storage at Davis Motham ( Excuse the spelling), and as far as I know the Charlie model of the F18 has a few more add ons and capabilities than our CF18 upgrades. So wouldn't it be better to purchase those, or go all new with a F35, Rafale, or eurofighter Typhoon?

 

[stephen weist]

to put it simply, range range range... the F18s just dont cut when it comes to range, period. try finding a picture of a F18 without drop tanks. thats the reason why I rule them out every time.