All Threat Missile Development
- Thread starter RubiconNZ
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RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
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- #2
To relaunch a bit of a necro thread, its been 4 year and my questions remain however since to elaborate, what current technological limitations exist which prevent a Javelin for example being a effective SAM, obviously it would be guidance related however I am not familiar with what these limitations guidance issues would be.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
The USN Standard missile has anti-surface capability in addition to anti-air, as does at least one variant of the Rolling Airframe Missile. According to information I've heard from Abe, the ESSM can engage surface targets as well.
For non-naval weapons I believe the Starstreak HVM is predominantly a surface-to-air weapon, but has secondary anti-surface capability. I'm only a beginner with this topic and I'm sure there's a lot out there I don't know about, but those would be starting examples.
The JDRADM will probably also end up being dual-target to an extent as I believe the intent is to replace both AMRAAM and HARM missiles with a single weapon capable of engaging a wider range of targets - I could be wrong on that however and welcome corrections.
For non-naval weapons I believe the Starstreak HVM is predominantly a surface-to-air weapon, but has secondary anti-surface capability. I'm only a beginner with this topic and I'm sure there's a lot out there I don't know about, but those would be starting examples.
The JDRADM will probably also end up being dual-target to an extent as I believe the intent is to replace both AMRAAM and HARM missiles with a single weapon capable of engaging a wider range of targets - I could be wrong on that however and welcome corrections.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I will be honest, I do not really understand the question being asked.
There are a number of missiles in various stages of development and deployment, which of course no surprise.
Are you asking which SAMs also have a secondary SSM function? Or is the question along the lines of which SSMs can be used as a SAM/ADS missile? Or is the objective of the question something altogether different?
-Cheers
There are a number of missiles in various stages of development and deployment, which of course no surprise.
Are you asking which SAMs also have a secondary SSM function? Or is the question along the lines of which SSMs can be used as a SAM/ADS missile? Or is the objective of the question something altogether different?
-Cheers
theres nothing stopping the Javelin from being a SAM, altho a very short ranged SAM and a sam without a proximity fuse.
from memory the Javelin uses IR doesnt it?
all you need to do is point it at something producing heat, then the missile will fly towards it until it either hits, misses or falls short
The principle limitation is the Javelin’s velocity which is about 1/3 that of most MANPADs. Should work fine against helicopters, but probably will have difficulty engaging fixed wing aircraft unless head on (i.e. it is strafing you).
The guidance system uses thermal imaging, not infra-red homing. You need to lock it on to the target image before launch.
There is also the ADATS [Air Defense Anti-Tank System].
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
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- #8
Thanks so far guys, I should of clarified when I relaunched it, my clarification should of been man portable or vehicle launched. The Standard Missile being another one of the large size that work SAM and Surface attack.
An Infantry weapon is where I am headed in my questions, apologies for the the lack of clarity, (its what happens when you resurrect an old thread on a iphone at the airport lol)
To sum up my understanding so far:
SAM:
Higher Velocity, Proximity Sensor and Infra Red
Smaller Warhead
Anti-Tank/Personnel Missile
Thermal or Wire Guided
No proximity fuse
Larger Warhead
What exists in a battlefield environment that meets these requirements to accurately perform in both roles, what inhibitors exist?
Can there be effect SSM SAM man portable, there are effective dual seeker warhead can miniaturization be used to have a common missile.
ADAT's is something I will check out.
An Infantry weapon is where I am headed in my questions, apologies for the the lack of clarity, (its what happens when you resurrect an old thread on a iphone at the airport lol)
To sum up my understanding so far:
SAM:
Higher Velocity, Proximity Sensor and Infra Red
Smaller Warhead
Anti-Tank/Personnel Missile
Thermal or Wire Guided
No proximity fuse
Larger Warhead
What exists in a battlefield environment that meets these requirements to accurately perform in both roles, what inhibitors exist?
Can there be effect SSM SAM man portable, there are effective dual seeker warhead can miniaturization be used to have a common missile.
ADAT's is something I will check out.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Okay, now I think I understand what is being asked.
Essentially it seems the question is for man-portable missile systems, is there/could there be a common missile for ground and ADS use.
For SAM:
Missiles tend to have higher velocity and longer range (FIM-92 Stinger manpads has a ~8 km max...)
Can be IR guided, but some are beam riding (RBS-70, Starstreak, etc)
Warheads can be impact or proximity, also warhead is usually some from of HE or blast/frag.
For ground/AT usage.
Warhead weight is usually larger (than manpad)
The range is usually shorter and the velocity lower
Guidance can be none (dumb rocket), wire or fire & forget
Warhead type can be blast/frag, or if AT is a single or tandem charge HEAT warhead
Warhead fuze is usually an impact fuse
As can be seen, the different roles have very different requirements. I do not think a viable missile system could be designed to provide both an air and ground common missile, do to different engagement environments/targets.
-Cheers
Some additional factors
Low velocity and the short length of the missile reduces the control authority of fins, especially for short range engagements before the missile gets up to speed, so thrust vector controls were selected for probably all designs currently in production and controlled flight ends when the vectoring system runs out of fuel.
Aerodynamics is critical to achieve range and speed requires minimum frontal area and center of rotation. They typically use fins for guidance so they can glide after engine burnout. This favors missiles for MANPADs having a long slim shapes with the warhead mounted near the center.
For shaped charges penetration is a function of warhead diameter (tandem warheads include a precursor warheads to neutralize explosive reactive armor). So AT missiles favor short fat shapes to maximize diameter. Impact fuses are used because the stand-off distance is critical to maximize penetration, which also determines warhead location and the design of any components located ahead of it.
Low velocity and the short length of the missile reduces the control authority of fins, especially for short range engagements before the missile gets up to speed, so thrust vector controls were selected for probably all designs currently in production and controlled flight ends when the vectoring system runs out of fuel.
All ATGMs are capable of this and should be quite effective as long as the helicopter is moving that fast.
Modern fire and forget ATGMs which use thermal imaging like Javelin and Spike should be a real threat for helicopters which are doing their classic hovering and popping up.
That said I think that helicopters (just as everybody else) are much more endangered on a modern battlefield during a massive conflict than one would think. In such a complex environment it is quite easy to miss some enemy forces and positions which can be quite painfull.
A MPAT, autocannon burst or Spike ruins the day quite fast.
Modern fire and forget ATGMs which use thermal imaging like Javelin and Spike should be a real threat for helicopters which are doing their classic hovering and popping up.
That said I think that helicopters (just as everybody else) are much more endangered on a modern battlefield during a massive conflict than one would think. In such a complex environment it is quite easy to miss some enemy forces and positions which can be quite painfull.
A MPAT, autocannon burst or Spike ruins the day quite fast.
The main reason we do not see more multitasking missiles types is not surprisingly because of are their cost, weight, and their less reliability as a result of their added complexity.
The trend is however, as the weight and cost of electronics and sensors goes down and the number of types of platforms and the magazines capacity of those platforms are reduced, we will see far more of these multifunctional weapons developed.
There are several examples like The sidewinder Air to Air missile had been modified to hit small fast surface craft and the Standard surface to Air to hit ground targets (a very expensive round for that uses but if you have nothing else when you really need it and have a limited capacity magazine it is somthing at least)