Incident in the Gulf or is this a completely unlikely scenario?

1805

New Member
2015.......Frustrated by increasingly provocative support for Hezbollah in Lebanon. On 22nd Nov the IAF undertake a deep strike on Iranian Nuclear facilities. Only 3 of the 6 aircraft reached the facility, 3 being shot down by newly upgraded Iranian S400 batteries.

In retaliation the Iranian Navy sows mines in the Straits of Hormuz, which hit a tanker and a Burke class destroyer going to investigate. Although still afloat splinters from airburst guided 155mm rounds disable the main sensors, leaving only the self contained Phalanx to defend the ship .

Warships sent to assist also end up trading shells with the shore batteries and eventually the intensity and accuracy and the threat of anti ship missiles forces the Allies ships to evacuate the crew and abandon the recovery of the ship.

The USN fires 100 Tomahawks, however of a high percent are shot down by well coordinated local air defence system of Misagh 2 and newly acquired Pantsir-S1 & Tor M1 systems.

The Allied forces decide it is necessary to take the fortified islands dominating the Straits, to suppress the shore batteries (guns & missiles), so move a assault force forward. An Iranian Kilo class lying in wait fires 6 torpedoes of which 3 hit the LHA-6 USS America. Excellent damage control saves the ship but the land assault is broken off.
 
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Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hmmm...

What mind expanding drug did you consume before "Imagining" this scenario ? :eek:nfloorl:

While SOME of this may be plausable, the majority is completey improbable.

If it was in the next 18 months, well that might be different, but in 5 years time, the ability to transfer & process real time data from numerous sources (including satelite, UAV / UCAV's & SIGNIT) will have improved significantly over what we are currently using.

Technology is progressing at a pace, with data storage & processing capability approximately doubling every 2 years. Thus in theory, there will be 2 steps of improvement between now & then.

And while, in your scenario, 100 tomahawk missiles are launched, "a HIGH percentage are shot down", if you cast your mind back to 2003 & the Invaison of Iraq, it's pretty easy to work out from footage on the TV news that roughly 3 missiles are sent to EACH target. Additionally, do you seriously think that Iran has an extremely well trained & well oiled 'machine' that can handle over 100 incoming missiles, never mind the other ordnance that was 'launched' at them ??

Finally, the US doesn't tend to go too far ANYWHERE on this planet without examining staelite images & data for approx 24hrs prior to any military excursion......

Sorry, but your bird won't fly....

SA
 

1805

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Hmmm...

What mind expanding drug did you consume before "Imagining" this scenario ? :eek:nfloorl:

While SOME of this may be plausable, the majority is completey improbable.

If it was in the next 18 months, well that might be different, but in 5 years time, the ability to transfer & process real time data from numerous sources (including satelite, UAV / UCAV's & SIGNIT) will have improved significantly over what we are currently using.

Technology is progressing at a pace, with data storage & processing capability approximately doubling every 2 years. Thus in theory, there will be 2 steps of improvement between now & then.

And while, in your scenario, 100 tomahawk missiles are launched, "a HIGH percentage are shot down", if you cast your mind back to 2003 & the Invaison of Iraq, it's pretty easy to work out from footage on the TV news that roughly 3 missiles are sent to EACH target. Additionally, do you seriously think that Iran has an extremely well trained & well oiled 'machine' that can handle over 100 incoming missiles, never mind the other ordnance that was 'launched' at them ??

Finally, the US doesn't tend to go too far ANYWHERE on this planet without examining staelite images & data for approx 24hrs prior to any military excursion......

Sorry, but your bird won't fly....

SA
It wasn't a prediction by 4 separate risk senarios. Agreed the next stage would probably be a bombing back to the dark ages. However I disagree with your comparision with Iraq, there is a lot of evidence that Iran is a far more capable and tenacious potential foe.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I find it very unusual that the US in this scenario only decide to sanitize shore defences AFTER a ship has already been heavily damaged by them. Why on earth would a professional navy send a major surface asset into an area known to be mined and within range of shore bombardment without addressing those threats first? What do they gain from this that they wouldn't gain with far less risk by peeling the threats back first? Where are the ISR assets before, during and after these events? And why this step-by-step, tit-for-tat response by the most coordinated and integrated military on the planet?

They're not amateurs, and they're not limited in their choice of responses...
 

Grim901

New Member
Where are the CBGs and strategic bombers while 2 major American surface combatants are hit in the Gulf? Why aren't they playing the ever popular game of "flatten the Iranians for their impudence?".

The man responsible for sending in the LHA would also need to be taken out and shot for that decision. Before the landing the Strait would have become a massive hive of naval activity as enemy batteries are neutralised and minesweepers move in. The straits don't exactly make for good sub hiding grounds either, how the hell did the US ships miss it?
 

Belesari

New Member
There are a few problems with this senario in my opinion.

Because of the US need for oil and for the oil to flow for the world economy its in our best interest to keep a US carrier group there for atleast the next decade.

And any carrier group comes with ALOT of buddies.

First off if there is a SSGN any iranian sites are screwed. 154 tomahawks coming in (thats just 1 SSGN thats not including the tomahawks from the task force. Or the warplanes from the carrier and thats assuming just 1 carrier group and just 1 SSGN) will ruin any countries day.

Add to that unless captain awesome or some other administration screws up our friendship with israel they will more than likely tell us before the go as well as send in more fighters than that.

Plus closing the Strait means choking off saudi arabian oil as well.

So you have a instant region wide conflict and the most destructive military power in history instantly ready to shatter you.

Also the phalanx last i checked can hit arty shells (at least the ground based phallanx can) so......

Then there is the fact that after the straits are cleared of mines (dont know how that would go sense it would be a clear act of war and would pose a danger to civilian traffic.

Closing the strait basically means pissing off the ENTIRE world.
 

Grim901

New Member
I never understood why the Saudi's didn't build a pipeline across the country to the Red Sea. The they and everyone else wouldn't have to worry about the Iranians being petulant.
 

Belesari

New Member
I never understood why the Saudi's didn't build a pipeline across the country to the Red Sea. The they and everyone else wouldn't have to worry about the Iranians being petulant.
With the saudis who knows having most of your country on a form of welfare and over 5,000 spoiled princes probably doesnt help:D
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
With the saudis who knows having most of your country on a form of welfare and over 5,000 spoiled princes probably doesnt help:D
You got that right and adding to the 5000 princes are their wives(3-5 wives per prince) and kids(3-6 children per wife):eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl:
 

1805

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I find it very unusual that the US in this scenario only decide to sanitize shore defences AFTER a ship has already been heavily damaged by them. Why on earth would a professional navy send a major surface asset into an area known to be mined and within range of shore bombardment without addressing those threats first? What do they gain from this that they wouldn't gain with far less risk by peeling the threats back first? Where are the ISR assets before, during and after these events? And why this step-by-step, tit-for-tat response by the most coordinated and integrated military on the planet?

They're not amateurs, and they're not limited in their choice of responses...
I think you would be right if they knew the threat was there. This is obviously all hypothetical but the Iranians would most likely retaliate some months later, maybe laying mines from some of their less able homemade submarines.

Again in the spirit of considering the most extreme threat and not implying the Iranians have the capability. The fire from the shore would be from a number of widely spread mobile 155mm guns firing guided shells from a 60km arc, in sort bursts of 10-12 shells, but directed from small concealed coastal positions.

The Kilo attack would be further out in the Indian Ocean as I assume an LHA would not need to come near the Gulf? Would a Kilo be able to get through a ASW screen...or lay in wait for one to sail into it's field of fire?
 

1805

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There are a few problems with this senario in my opinion.

Because of the US need for oil and for the oil to flow for the world economy its in our best interest to keep a US carrier group there for atleast the next decade.

And any carrier group comes with ALOT of buddies.

First off if there is a SSGN any iranian sites are screwed. 154 tomahawks coming in (thats just 1 SSGN thats not including the tomahawks from the task force. Or the warplanes from the carrier and thats assuming just 1 carrier group and just 1 SSGN) will ruin any countries day.

Add to that unless captain awesome or some other administration screws up our friendship with israel they will more than likely tell us before the go as well as send in more fighters than that.

Plus closing the Strait means choking off saudi arabian oil as well.

So you have a instant region wide conflict and the most destructive military power in history instantly ready to shatter you.

Also the phalanx last i checked can hit arty shells (at least the ground based phallanx can) so......

Then there is the fact that after the straits are cleared of mines (dont know how that would go sense it would be a clear act of war and would pose a danger to civilian traffic.

Closing the strait basically means pissing off the ENTIRE world.
I think the Centurion C-RAM has been very successful shooting down all sorts of rubbish fired at bases in Iraq, so the naval version must be able to take out 155mm shells, but could it handle 10-12 rounds landing, maybe airburst in very rapid succession?

I agree with you but I think the Iranians have been enjoy being masters of the art of "pissing off the ENTIRE world" , quite apart from nuclear weapons programme etc, most of the IEDs killing out troops are made by them. If ever there was a case of invading the wrong country Iran is it!
 

Grim901

New Member
I think the Centurion C-RAM has been very successful shooting down all sorts of rubbish fired at bases in Iraq, so the naval version must be able to take out 155mm shells, but could it handle 10-12 rounds landing, maybe airburst in very rapid succession?

I agree with you but I think the Iranians have been enjoy being masters of the art of "pissing off the ENTIRE world" , quite apart from nuclear weapons programme etc, most of the IEDs killing out troops are made by them. If ever there was a case of invading the wrong country there is Iran!
Not really a massive issue since the Iranians don't have any guided shells. And if they did get their hands on a few the US could just turn off the GPS.

And that IED thing was true for Iraq, not really for Afghanistan. They're all fertilizer bombs now, with the fertilizer being paid for by ISAF. I'd laugh if it didn't make me so angry.
 

1805

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Not really a massive issue since the Iranians don't have any guided shells. And if they did get their hands on a few the US could just turn off the GPS.

And that IED thing was true for Iraq, not really for Afghanistan. They're all fertilizer bombs now, with the fertilizer being paid for by ISAF. I'd laugh if it didn't make me so angry.
I am not sure you can inflict the number of casualties they are, just with homemade fertilizer bombs. I found this with a web search, but the article does go on to question if this is really official Iranian Government support or radical Revolutionary Guard factions, as the Iranians have no desire to see the return of the Taliban?

Soured diplomatic relations were followed by claims of Iranian support to Islamic militants, first in Iraq, and then in Afghanistan. Defense Secretary Robert Gates told reporters in June 2007 that "given the quantities that we're seeing, it is difficult to believe that it's associated with smuggling or the drug business or that it's taking place without the knowledge of the Iranian government." U.S. officials say that Iranian-made weapons, including Tehran's signature roadside bomb-the explosively formed penetrator (EFP)-as well as AK-47s, C-4 plastic explosives, and mortars have been found in Afghanistan and used by Taliban-led insurgents. They are concerned because Taliban forces increasingly use more sophisticated weaponry and mimic the style of suicide attacks popular among insurgents in Iraq. Iran also stands accused of offering sanctuary to opponents of the Afghan government and violating Afghan airspace. Iranian officials deny the charges.

Lets assume the shells are laser guided ;-)
 

Grim901

New Member
I am not sure you can inflict the number of casualties they are, just with homemade fertilizer bombs. I found this with a web search, but the article does go on to question if this is really official Iranian Government support or radical Revolutionary Guard factions, as the Iranians have no desire to see the return of the Taliban?

Soured diplomatic relations were followed by claims of Iranian support to Islamic militants, first in Iraq, and then in Afghanistan. Defense Secretary Robert Gates told reporters in June 2007 that "given the quantities that we're seeing, it is difficult to believe that it's associated with smuggling or the drug business or that it's taking place without the knowledge of the Iranian government." U.S. officials say that Iranian-made weapons, including Tehran's signature roadside bomb-the explosively formed penetrator (EFP)-as well as AK-47s, C-4 plastic explosives, and mortars have been found in Afghanistan and used by Taliban-led insurgents. They are concerned because Taliban forces increasingly use more sophisticated weaponry and mimic the style of suicide attacks popular among insurgents in Iraq. Iran also stands accused of offering sanctuary to opponents of the Afghan government and violating Afghan airspace. Iranian officials deny the charges.

Lets assume the shells are laser guided ;-)
Shells first - Wouldn't that then imply that someone is pointing a laser designator at the naval task force? How are they doing that without being caught and/or blown to hell. Are ANY naval weapons laser guided due to this?

And I think we need to see sources for that report. Everything i've heard, from defence websites through to combat journalist reporting (Michael Yon etc) is that a major difference between Iraq and Astan is that the Taliban have never, or almost never, used an EFP type weapon. As this was a staple of Iranian support to Iraqi insurgents it would suggest that is either non-existent or severely reduced in this conflict.

Almost all reports i've found suggest Taliban IEDs are crude fertilizer and diesel bombs, usually with crude home-made detonators. Although the weapons are becoming more sophisticated and larger this only indicates increasing experience of the bomb makers and a need to deal with MRAPs. If the Taliban could get EFPs for this job they would, because an MRAP is more vulnerable to an EFP than what the Taliban are currently using. Both would be quite easy to get hold of if Iran chose to supply them, they're small and easy to move/smuggle, and come ready to use, which fertilizer isn't, although it can be found in every bazaar in the country.

That doesn't rule out Iranian support, but I think it may have changed form. There is certainly mounting evidence of training camps shifting from the Pakistani tribal region to Iran. Captured insurgents have corroborated this. There have also been airspace violations by UAVs from Iran.
 

1805

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Shells first - Wouldn't that then imply that someone is pointing a laser designator at the naval task force? How are they doing that without being caught and/or blown to hell. Are ANY naval weapons laser guided due to this?

And I think we need to see sources for that report. Everything i've heard, from defence websites through to combat journalist reporting (Michael Yon etc) is that a major difference between Iraq and Astan is that the Taliban have never, or almost never, used an EFP type weapon. As this was a staple of Iranian support to Iraqi insurgents it would suggest that is either non-existent or severely reduced in this conflict.

Almost all reports i've found suggest Taliban IEDs are crude fertilizer and diesel bombs, usually with crude home-made detonators. Although the weapons are becoming more sophisticated and larger this only indicates increasing experience of the bomb makers and a need to deal with MRAPs. If the Taliban could get EFPs for this job they would, because an MRAP is more vulnerable to an EFP than what the Taliban are currently using. Both would be quite easy to get hold of if Iran chose to supply them, they're small and easy to move/smuggle, and come ready to use, which fertilizer isn't, although it can be found in every bazaar in the country.

That doesn't rule out Iranian support, but I think it may have changed form. There is certainly mounting evidence of training camps shifting from the Pakistani tribal region to Iran. Captured insurgents have corroborated this. There have also been airspace violations by UAVs from Iran.
The logic that they are not supplying the Taliban or officially is probably sound as they could easily do so. If the place is not awash with Iranian bomb making kit, it would imply the Iranians have issues with the Taliban and are not supplying.

However getting back to the thread, I did say their is no evidence they had Guided 155mm rounds, but for the sake of identifying the most dangerous threats warships face, lets assume they either bought a load off the Chinese and are using Chinese satelites, have develop there own laser guided rounds or are simply firing a lot more, accurate unguided rounds.

Surely a lot of unguided rounds would still have the potential to overwhelm a single Phalanx. The system would have to prioritize fire but this would be very challenging.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The logic that they are not supplying the Taliban or officially is probably sound as they could easily do so. If the place is not awash with Iranian bomb making kit, it would imply the Iranians have issues with the Taliban and are not supplying. ....
The Iranians had serious issues with the Taliban when they ran Afghanistan, & attitudes have not changed. Iran offered asylum to opponents of the Taliban, & there were border skirmishes. At most, Iran might make temporary tactical alliances with elements of the Taliban, but always with a view to resumed enmity in the future.

The Taliban are militant Sunni Muslims, who regard Shiites as heretics as best, infidels at worst. Shia Islam is the state religion of Iran.

The Taliban is an ethnically based Pushtun movement, regarding the Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks & other non-Pushtun peoples with suspicion at best, & outright hatred at worst. The Hazaras are both Dari-speaking & Shi'a, so are hated. Tajiks are mostly Sunni, but speak Dari.

Dari & Farsi (the official language of Iran) are mutually intelligible.
 

Juramentado

New Member
A Letter Grade Assessment of your Scenario

2015.......Frustrated by increasingly provocative support for Hezbollah in Lebanon. On 22nd Nov the IAF undertake a deep strike on Iranian Nuclear facilities. Only 3 of the 6 aircraft reached the facility, 3 being shot down by newly upgraded Iranian S400 batteries.

In retaliation the Iranian Navy sows mines in the Straits of Hormuz, which hit a tanker and a Burke class destroyer going to investigate. Although still afloat splinters from airburst guided 155mm rounds disable the main sensors, leaving only the self contained Phalanx to defend the ship .

Warships sent to assist also end up trading shells with the shore batteries and eventually the intensity and accuracy and the threat of anti ship missiles forces the Allies ships to evacuate the crew and abandon the recovery of the ship.

The USN fires 100 Tomahawks, however of a high percent are shot down by well coordinated local air defence system of Misagh 2 and newly acquired Pantsir-S1 & Tor M1 systems.

The Allied forces decide it is necessary to take the fortified islands dominating the Straits, to suppress the shore batteries (guns & missiles), so move a assault force forward. An Iranian Kilo class lying in wait fires 6 torpedoes of which 3 hit the LHA-6 USS America. Excellent damage control saves the ship but the land assault is broken off.
I'm late to this thread, but I read it while grilling some things the other day and I dared not carry on attempting to type a response using an iPod Touch and expect the food to remain unburnt. :rolleyes:

So let's assume you aspire to be a budding Tom Clancy. :cool: You need to fact-check your scenario a bit if your intent is to make it a compelling possibility. I'm not trying to undermine your scenario, I'm just trying to point out some places where it falls down in plausibility.

The Israelis would never send only six aircraft against an Iranian target. For starters, Iran is further away from Israel than Iraq, and it took fourteen aircraft in the historical strike on the Iraqi Osirak reactor - eight F-16A strikers and six F-15As for air cover. Even with F-15Is (the export Strike Eagle), the US would have to turn a blind eye since the most direct and least contested path from Israel to Iran would be through Iraqi airspace. We're assuming the brief flight past Jordan and SA is somehow missed by those nations. Barring another 9/11 type event that militantly polarizes US opinion against Iran, the US could not allow this to happen without significant fallout with the more moderate Arab nations. The Israelis would have to balance spoiling the relationship with their only reliable ally in return for a one-time attack. Scenario section = D-.

The last attempt by Iran to sow mines in the Strait of Hormuz was during the Tanker Wars in the 80s. The old horned horror (contact mine) is definitely still a threat, never mind more sophisticated models. But you did not look at the geography. In order to completely close the Straits of Hormuz, Iran needs to lay a static minefield about 25 miles in width (basically from the 14 fathom line and deeper) and deep enough West into the Strait to make mine-hunting a slow affair, impacting shipping delays. This would take, by all optimistic estimates, about a dedicated week of uninterrupted seeding. In the meantime, traffic would flow through the unmined parts and nominal surveillance at tactical and strategic levels would continue, thereby increasing the chances of that activity being detected. Burkes are not expected to be in the transit lanes where mines would be most effective; they stick close to the Carrier Strike Groups because they're now part and parcel of the AAW umbrella. The CSG would not hang around the mouth of the Strait itself - it will either enter the Gulf or remain outside to conduct maritime surveillance and strike operations. Given the recent Fokker-27 flyover incident, the focus on aerial force protection is understandable, if short-sighted (full dimension force protection is paramount, not just one axis). So they're nowhere near those mined lanes. It's more likely that commercial traffic would be struck first. Also, this doesn't take into account how 155mm shells could reach that far to damage any of the Aegis facings on the destroyer - no type commander worth his/her stripes would be caught anywhere within 66% effective range of gun-based shore batteries. Good try, but needs more work. Scenario section C-.

Anti-ship batteries versus shipping traffic. Okay, that's good. The INS Hanit incident is a good example, although it was more of a one-time affair, but plausible when scaled up. What's missing from this equation is how you designate the targets for the missiles - this means active radar or more sophisticated LIDAR. Active radar means EW and suppression missions can easily locate the designators. SSM effectiveness is also reduced by the sheer clutter near the Straits - it's not a flat seascape and there are many terrain features that will confuse an ASM. You also assume this is a single-dimension threat or defense only. Additional ships would be dispatched in response to a sinking, but aircraft would be first on the scene to conduct SAR and ISR before committing slower and more vulnerable surface combatants to the rescue. Add in-theater reconsat and you have the beginnings of an ATO that shows where the hostile batteries were last located. I posit that the immediate battle occurs in the air, rather than on the surface, as naval air strikes are sent in to suppress the most threatening batteries first. If the Iranians are smart, they will have moved up their few but effective S400s to maximize damage against Western planes. Where you really stumbled is an artillery duel between ships and shore batteries. The USN retired their battlewagons and no type commander will bring his/her ship that close to shore to conduct shellfire runs (see point above). 127mm guns won't do a whole lot, especially since there's only one of them per CG/DDG. Scenario section = C-.

Before we even get to the point about where the Tomahawks are going, let's ask the first question - why are they being fired in the first place? You have to posit what the response is by the US to a perceived attack against commercial shipping. Remember, we've discounted the possibility that part of the CSG was struck by mines. So even if the merchant struck was US flagged - is the response a measured retaliation against the cause (missile shore batteries) or a wider escalation against Tehran? In order to be the latter, the US would need a mandate from the UN. However, if it's a measured retaliation to eliminate the immediate threat of SSM batteries, that's more palatable in the fuzzy world of international politics if taken as a unilateral step. I would argue that TLAM use against near targets is tactically unsound and wasteful. Remember, this is the new face of warfare. The prolifigate spending of munitions during WW2 will not be seen again. The warfighter has to think (sadly) about the cost of each major fire being used, in addition to it's effectiveness and lethality. Again, naval aviation strike makes more sense against mobile targets. Scenario section = F.

The idea that the islands between Bandar Abbas and Oman needing to be seized long-term is good. That's definitely a plausible scenario. I think you need to take into account the political aspects of America invading Arab soil - again. There will be deep sensitivity (and there is no doubt now given the continuing war in SWA) to foreign invaders, even if Iran is found to be internationally culpable in it's criminal behavior. In keeping with Naval Operations Concept 2010, it makes more sense to see if Oman or Saudi Arabia would be willing to take on the assault instead. This dovetails with the Maritime Security Cooperation concept, and is more palatable than having infidels storming the beaches. Therefore, no terrible sinking of an amphib ship. Scenario section = ehh B-.

So - your final tally:

D- = 60 = 1.0
C- = 70 = 1.5
C- = 70 = 1.5
F = 59 = 0.0
B- = 80 = 2.5

Average for scenario totality = D+ = 68 = 1.3 GPA

Just remember, this is all open-source, but you need to think harder not just about WHAT happened, but the reasons WHY, and CAN it happen. If there are big disconnects between the three, the plausibility drops way down.
 

AMERICANMAN

Banned Member
Where are the CBGs and strategic bombers while 2 major American surface combatants are hit in the Gulf? Why aren't they playing the ever popular game of "flatten the Iranians for their impudence?".

The man responsible for sending in the LHA would also need to be taken out and shot for that decision. Before the landing the Strait would have become a massive hive of naval activity as enemy batteries are neutralised and minesweepers move in. The straits don't exactly make for good sub hiding grounds either, how the hell did the US ships miss it?

The United States and/or Israel will need to approach any war with Iran with the stated goal of dismantling the Persian empire. The Azeri of Iran should be united with the nation of Azerbaijan to form a nation of 25 million. The Kurds of Iran and Iraq should unite to form a Kurdish nation. The adjoining Turkmen regions of Iran should be annexed by the nation of Turkmenistan. The pro Iranian Shiite parties and militias of Iraq could be promised the adjoining Shiite Arab province of Khuzestan- which produces over 80% of Iran’s oil and gas. All the other ethnic groups should be offered independence. If all the ethnic groups of Iran, and the adjoining nations, know this in advance, then a war with Iran will be much more successful since the central government in Tehran could not suppress multiple internal insugencies AND wage a war against an external enemy.

If the USA really wanted to destroy Iran it would best if would start supporting groups that would divide Iran internally not directly by the US Goverment but thru funding by private chariitys and exile and imigrant groups.
 

Belesari

New Member
The United States and/or Israel will need to approach any war with Iran with the stated goal of dismantling the Persian empire. The Azeri of Iran should be united with the nation of Azerbaijan to form a nation of 25 million. The Kurds of Iran and Iraq should unite to form a Kurdish nation. The adjoining Turkmen regions of Iran should be annexed by the nation of Turkmenistan. The pro Iranian Shiite parties and militias of Iraq could be promised the adjoining Shiite Arab province of Khuzestan- which produces over 80% of Iran’s oil and gas. All the other ethnic groups should be offered independence. If all the ethnic groups of Iran, and the adjoining nations, know this in advance, then a war with Iran will be much more successful since the central government in Tehran could not suppress multiple internal insugencies AND wage a war against an external enemy.

If the USA really wanted to destroy Iran it would best if would start supporting groups that would divide Iran internally not directly by the US Goverment but thru funding by private chariitys and exile and imigrant groups.
Doubt that could happen that way. First off no one likes the Kurds and turky would FREAK if we did that. Second doubt the Iranians would just say ok break up our country however you want.

Plus lets not start a religious war. Let the Iraqis take care of there internal struggles first. I myself see Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran as part of a common war. Iran cant let us succed in either country. This would essentually trap them in a vice of American allied countries.

-----------------------------------
BTW are there plans for a permanent US base in Iraq kinda like the bases in SK?
 
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