Dutch Frigates

[.pt]

Just read that today the Portuguese defense minister is signing the purchase contract for at least 2 ex-Ducth navy frigates. Its a done deal.
Can anyone inform me wich are the frigates in question, their capabilities and an assessment on their operationality. I´m a bit afraid we are buying junk. edit: just learned they are Karel Doorman type frigates, and the deal might contemplate Lynx helicopters, number unknown, In this package also some Dutch Leo2a6 MBT for Portuguese Army.This deal invalidates previous aproved purchase of US navy Oliver Perry class frigates, ffg12 "George Philip", and FFG 14 "John H. Side", wich was already aproved by US senate (?).
thanks in advance.
.pt

 

[contedicavour]

Just read that today the Portuguese defense minister is signing the purchase contract for at least 2 ex-Ducth navy frigates. Its a done deal.
Can anyone inform me wich are the frigates in question, their capabilities and an assessment on their operationality. I´m a bit afraid we are buying junk. edit: just learned they are Karel Doorman type frigates, and the deal might contemplate Lynx helicopters, number unknown, In this package also some Dutch Leo2a6 MBT for Portuguese Army.This deal invalidates previous aproved purchase of US navy Oliver Perry class frigates, ffg12 "George Philip", and FFG 14 "John H. Side", wich was already aproved by US senate (?).
thanks in advance.
.pt

The Doormans are very good and recent FFGs, better than old OHPs in several aspects :
> VLS Sea Sparrows offer better AAW than old Mk13 single launcher for Standard SM-1 (shared with Harpoon...), even if range is shorter.
> ASW wise both types have towed passive array sonars and can carry a couple of ASW helos
> ASUW wise, Doormans have 8 Harpoon launchers, OHPs need to launch one Harpoon at a time from the same Mk13 that is needed to launch SM-1s
> Goalkeeper CIWS offers higher calibre longer range CIWS than Phalanx.

So be reassured, this isn't junk at all, and it's better than the Vasco da Gama Mekos which constitute the bulk of your surface navy.

cheers

 

[EnigmaNZ]

And of course VLS Sea Sparrows can be replaced with ESSM's in time, which have a capacity (range and warhead) almost equal to the sm1 anyway. Pity they have the mk 48 16 cell vls for the sea sparrow, rather than the mk41 which could have been quad packed with essm's. Still, seems a good general purpose frigate.

 

[contedicavour]

And of course VLS Sea Sparrows can be replaced with ESSM's in time, which have a capacity (range and warhead) almost equal to the sm1 anyway. Pity they have the mk 48 16 cell vls for the sea sparrow, rather than the mk41 which could have been quad packed with essm's. Still, seems a good general purpose frigate.

Agree overall, but I'm surprised by the range numbers you estimate for ESSM. Jane's and other sources give 18km max range for ESSM, while SM1 has 46km, though by the time you launch 1 SM-1 you've launched 8 ESSMs so the point overall remains valid.

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

And of course VLS Sea Sparrows can be replaced with ESSM's in time, which have a capacity (range and warhead) almost equal to the sm1 anyway. Pity they have the mk 48 16 cell vls for the sea sparrow, rather than the mk41 which could have been quad packed with essm's. Still, seems a good general purpose frigate.

The mk56 launcher could also be an option. A 12 ESSM mk56 launcher take up about the same space as an mk48 with 6 Sea Sparrow classic. That is when mounted on StanFlex modules.

Looks like an easy upgrade path.

(I'm guessing that would make for 32 ESSM instead of 16 SS.)

 

[Ths]

What I find especially interesting is the steady flow of rather good and capable ships from the major naval powers, such as the USA, GB and Netherlands to countries like Portugal, Chile, Bulgaria, Romania and others with a common interest. Anybody knows where the Norwegean frigates will go as the Nansen class enters service.

It seems to be a massive rearmament of Nato and associates. The scale is not so much the difference in capability between the new and the "old" vessels in the navy building new; but the difference the pre-used accepted by second party - and what they are scrapping.

Secondly: The original builders seem to be changing types: From F's to say L's. Which marks a whole new distribution and ambition of the worlds navies.

 

[Grand Danois]

Anybody knows where the Norwegean frigates will go as the Nansen class enters service.

And where do you suggest they will go?

 

[Ths]

Well it seem like the clincher is that there is a general raise in capability to operate against Russian subs, so they won't go to the North Atlantic; but I have notices the upgrad of the Chilian Navy, where the main concern might be the Chinese and Russian boomer passing south of Cape Horn.
Another possible use would be some of the nations in Micronesia; but I don't think they can handle it - they are having problems enough with coastal patrollers as it is - not to mention civilian riots and corruption.

Nigeria, Kenya and Tanzania are possibles. South Africa if they need a rapid increase in forcelevel.

 

[Grand Danois]

Well it seem like the clincher is that there is a general raise in capability to operate against Russian subs, so they won't go to the North Atlantic; but I have notices the upgrad of the Chilian Navy, where the main concern might be the Chinese and Russian boomer passing south of Cape Horn.
Another possible use would be some of the nations in Micronesia; but I don't think they can handle it - they are having problems enough with coastal patrollers as it is - not to mention civilian riots and corruption.

Nigeria, Kenya and Tanzania are possibles. South Africa if they need a rapid increase in forcelevel.

There are 3 left of the Oslo Class, 2 of which are in service. One sank and another has been used for target practice. They are 40+ years old and have served in the harsh conditions of the North Atlantic.

They will be used for target practice or scrapped.

 

[Taitennek]

Just read that today the Portuguese defense minister is signing the purchase contract for at least 2 ex-Ducth navy frigates. Its a done deal.
Can anyone inform me wich are the frigates in question, their capabilities and an assessment on their operationality. I´m a bit afraid we are buying junk. edit: just learned they are Karel Doorman type frigates, and the deal might contemplate Lynx helicopters, number unknown, In this package also some Dutch Leo2a6 MBT for Portuguese Army.This deal invalidates previous aproved purchase of US navy Oliver Perry class frigates, ffg12 "George Philip", and FFG 14 "John H. Side", wich was already aproved by US senate (?).
thanks in advance.
.pt

The names of the Dutch frigates are the HMS Van Galen and HMS Van Nes

 

[Ths]

You are probably right the Oslo class is worn out.

 

[.pt]

Thanks for all the input, guys.
as for that rearming thing stated by THS, i don´t know the particulars of other countries, but in the Portuguese case, its a question of substituting the João belo class frigates, dating from the late 60´s, and not capable of answering our needs. They have been sold to Uruguay (?) i think.
Also, altough we are a small nation, we have a huge EEZ in the atlantic to take care of, and, historically, we always had a strong navy, from the time of our colonial empire.
Since these Dutch frigates seem to have the necessary capabilities, and are not badly outdated, perhaps this will turn out to be a good buy.
Comparing these vessels to the other contenders, the Oliver Perry class, what are the main diferences in equipment, capabilities and mission types?
Thanks again.
.pt

 

[Sea Toby]

The Karel Doormans are not what I consider an old ship, they are newer than the OHPerrys. Yes, they are approaching the time of their mid-life refit. And like the New Zealand's Anzacs, they will need a systems upgrade soon. Upgrading two Doormans will probably run in the neighborhood of buying one new frigate. Portugal will be getting two frigates for the price of one new one.

The OHPerrys have already passed their times for a mid-life refit, they would sustain the same systems upgrade too. The ESSM upgrade of the Doormans will be easy, whereas the SM-1 upgrade will be more difficult and expensive with the SM-1 no longer in production. In my opinion Portugal chose well. Always buy equipment that's in production over equipment that isn't.

The OHPerrys have a 76-mm gunmount, so do the Doormans. Both have antisubmarine torpedo tubes and torpedoes. Both have helicopter hangar and deck. Both have chaff antimissile countermeasures. The main difference is the main anti-air missiles carried discussed in the previous paragraph. While the SM-1 has a longer range for area defence, the Seasparrow is a good self defence missile, the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) will be better, and can be quad packed instead of single packed in the vertical missile cells.

Since Portugal does not have SM-1 missiles in their inventory today, and does have Seasparrow in their inventory, it would be wise in my opinion to buy a weapon system already in stock.

However, I more worried about the Dutch Navy, as it has recently sold 6 of their 8 Karel Doormans, leaving them with a fleet of 4 destroyers and 2 frigates. I understand they are building a new class of OPVs/corvettes, plus selling to Indonesia two similar vessels. Will the new warships have ESSM anti-air missiles? I presume they will have a 76-mm gun, chaff, helicopter/hangar, and torpedo tubes.

 

[harryriedl]

i also feel that the duch have cut too much as they seem to whant to compleatly get rid of the Karel Doorman selling to chile, beligium ,portugal and anyone eles who will buy them.

so the main assets in the persnt fleet is 4 AGEIS frigerts 2LPD and a new class of corvetts wouldn't it be good for the duch to have a minstral sized vessle for for incresesed sea lift amout of escorts could be a problem though

 

[Sea Toby]

I believe the Dutch air warfare destroyers/frigates have APAR not the US Aegis system. Never-the-less they are wonderful warships. At least the Dutch built four, Germany only built three, and the Italians and French are only building two new air warfare warships. Hopefully the Dutch build quality corvettes, or small frigates in numbers to replace the Doormans quickly.

It appears to me that the Dutch are more interested in keeping their shipyards busy than holding onto escort ships. Its hard to sell new expensive warships abroad when so many nations are willing to sell their warships at their mid-life point. Even European nations are willing to buy a used warship at their mid-life point, not just South American and Asian nations.

 

[contedicavour]

The Dutch are keeping 2 Doormans together with the 4 De Zeven Provincen AAW FFGs (with APAR, yes, no Aegis) and 4 corvettes similar to Sigma design (though probably with helo hangar) to be used mainly for Caribbean (Aruba) patrol.
That still leaves them with 2 big LPDs and 4 Walrus SSK, not to mention a dozen dedicated MCM ships.

It is true however that we are very far from the era when there were 2 DDG (Tromp, de Ruyter), 2 AAW FFGs derived from Kortenaer, 8 Doorman FFGs and 4 remaining Kortenaer FFGs. 16 main surface units....

That's why I assess the current situation almost everywhere (exceptions are Spain and Australia) as of huge fleet reductions, not of buildup. Though the quality of today's ships is amazingly superior to that of the ships they are replacing.

cheers

 

[Ths]

I should have mentioned Uruguay for the Olso-class!! Thought of it, but didn't do it.
Paraguay a possibility??? There will be a problem with Bolivia (it is landlocked).

The "flagship" of the Uruguayan is so old that it was at one point named after the dictator Stroessner - as afr as I know: He died about 10-20 years ago!
Why not export weapons a nice ship, that can't sail anymore to them.

 

[Ths]

I'm one that thinks that Portugal has sensible policy where you get older ships that can do the job. The huge area means that its more numbers that count than capability.
Secondly: You have trained crew, so in case you need to expand it can be done.
Thirdly: You are members of an alliance, so in case You need weapons you can get them.

 

[.pt]

Well, it seems that under the current budgetary restraints, this is a good buy.
Our navy is the military branch getting the lions share of the money alocated to new equipments, frigates, new submarines, new replenishment vessel, etc.
Btw these frigates will be delivered only in 2008. One of them is getting ready, or is already en route to Lebanon, as part of UNIFIL, as part of the dutch contigent.
I have seen opinions, that this move by the Dutch is just to keep their shipyards in business with new orders, but that could be only rumours. If true, our gain, as we will get these vessels at a very good price, included in a package of military equipment sales.
.pt

 

[Ths]

Well the reasoning from the dutch is sound as well: We also need those waters under surveillance anyhow, so why not give the ships to the portuguese and let them handle it: Main thing the job gets done and it is cheaper for us rather than man and operate them as well.